Provoo Communion Validates Anglican Orders

[GKC]

Why is there so much hate in this forum?

I’ve been here around 9 years. In this forum, where I spend most of my time, I wouldn’t say there has been a lot of hatred manifested. Admittedly, I don’t read every thread, but that’s my assessment. And I’m not RC

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

 

[benjohnson]

Why is there so much hate in this forum?

As a Lutheran, I’ve been very well treated by Catholics in this forum. Frankly, I view this forum as part of my faith formation - so if you were to ask me, there’s a lot of Christian love here.

If your remark was based off the “Lutherans Are Evil Day” - that was rather humorous sarcasm. Of course, we Lutherans have a “Katholiken sind böse Feier”, but so far they haven’t caught on. I think the last Pope was onto our scheme, but we have our ‘ways.’

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Why is there so much hate in this forum?

Strike 1. :yyeess:

 

[EvangelCatholic]

As a Lutheran, I’ve been very well treated by Catholics in this forum. Frankly, I view this forum as part of my faith formation - so if you were to ask me, there’s a lot of Christian love here.

If your remark was based off the “Lutherans Are Evil Day” - that was rather humorous sarcasm. Of course, we Lutherans have a “Katholiken sind böse Feier”, but so far they haven’t caught on. I think the last Pope was onto our scheme, but we have our ‘ways.’

Actually, sometimes it is fellow Lutherans who demean and slight other Lutherans on this forum.

 

[benjohnson]

Actually, sometimes it is fellow Lutherans who demean and slight other Lutherans on this forum.

I have seen Lutherans defend their faith from those that are promulgating secular and reformed theology under the guise of historic Lutheran theology and practice.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I have seen Lutherans defend their faith from those that are promulgating secular and reformed theology under the guise of historic Lutheran theology and practice.

Ben, here is a comment you posted on the thread dealing with a Lutheran Ordinariate:

In the business world, when markets shrink, you tend to to see a lot of mergers. My experience is that what’s happening among the liberal/progressive theologizes - they’re merging in order to maintain relevancy in numbers while their more orthodox members leave for less secular shepherds. Witness the million who left the ELCA in just the last three years, and the other countless who are seeking refuge from the Episcopal Church.

There will probably soon be a united luther-presbo-epsicopola-reformed church, but it will basically be a shell of crumbling churches in stagnant metropolises.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10969401#post10969401

 

[Michael57]

Michael,
Of course, you know, I was joking. You post here, however, seems serious. If this is indeed happening, it is inappropriate, unless the priest and pastor have an agreement to use the event to teach the laity of both parishes about the history of the Reformation, and the issues of the Reformation era (a great idea if the two clergymen and parishes have developed a charitable working relationship).

Jon

Yes, I understand you were j/k.

I was half-way kidding, but the event actually happens at my home parish every year.

I only found out about it because I happened to be down at the Church to talk to my priest about something, and he was scraping the 95 (typed) theses off of the front doors.

He explained, somewhat sheepishly, that he has been taking them down for a many of years, and it’s not a “teaching event”- it’s a regular event.

There is a Lutheran Church just down the street a few blocks. Our parish has no real contact with them to my knowledge. I have no reason the think it’s one of their members.

I asked if he was going to do anything about it, and he said “No”. Anyone compelled to do something like that, year in and year out, likely has greater issues and probably doesn’t need to be provoked into “taking it up a notch”.

Who knows? Maybe they sneak in to Mass to steal, er, “take”, er, receive communion?

 

[Michael57]

I think you’ve been watching too much TV. (Or not enough.)

 

[benjohnson]

Ben, here is a comment you posted on the thread dealing with a Lutheran Ordinariate:

“There will probably soon be a united luther-presbo-epsicopola-reformed church, but it will basically be a shell of crumbling churches in stagnant metropolises.”

I pray that my prognosis is wrong, but it’s what I see if current trends continue.

If it makes you uncomfortable, feel free to ignore me, but I would suggest action.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I pray that my prognosis is wrong, but it’s what I see if current trends continue.

If it makes you uncomfortable, feel free to ignore me, but I would suggest action.

Thanks for apologizing for making hurtful comments about my church. Ironically your avatar speaks of the “Gospel”.

 

[Peter_J]

Yes, I understand you were j/k.

I was half-way kidding, but the event actually happens at my home parish every year.

I only found out about it because I happened to be down at the Church to talk to my priest about something, and he was scraping the 95 (typed) theses off of the front doors.

He explained, somewhat sheepishly, that he has been taking them down for a many of years, and it’s not a “teaching event”- it’s a regular event.

Just that’s sad.

There is a Lutheran Church just down the street a few blocks. Our parish has no real contact with them to my knowledge. I have no reason the think it’s one of their members.

Good point. Easy to jump to the conclusion that the person/people doing it is/are Lutheran.

 

[JonNC]

Actually, sometimes it is fellow Lutherans who demean and slight other Lutherans on this forum.

EC,
I, like you, have been on both sides of the LCMS / ELCA divide, and I have indeed heard real demanding comments from both sides. OTOH, the concern of confessional Lutherans about the influence of Protestantism is as old as the Formula of Concord. It is my fervent hope that my criticism of the views you have offered, where they differ from mine, have not been demeaning, nor personal, but based on an understanding of what scripture and the confessions teach. However, if they have come across as not being in keeping with Luther’s commentary on the 8th Commandment, then I sincerely apologize.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Just that’s sad.

Good point. Easy to jump to the conclusion that the person/people doing it is/are Lutheran.

It is sad, and I sincerely hope it isn’t Lutherans doing it.

Jon

 

[aidanbradypop]

Actually, sometimes it is fellow Lutherans who demean and slight other Lutherans on this forum.

EC…I mean this with no hurtful intent but from what I see you write, your views are sometimes not what mean orthodox Lutherans believe in. Sometimes they come across as being against the confessions. I could be completely off and speaking out of turn but it seems your love for women’s ordination, a shared Eucharist…etc is not in line with many Lutherans here. I have ran across Catholics on here with a more esoteric views of the Church that are not in line with Church teaching and I correct such views in the most charitable way I can. I do not believe Ben, Don, Jon and many other Lutherans mean to degrade you or say your beliefs do not matter, because they matter to you. We are, however, allowed to disagree on doctrines and beliefs as long as they are not attacking an individual. It happens sometimes and it makes me sad to see it. I will be the first to attack doctrine but I pray the last to attack the person.

EC,
I, like you, have been on both sides of the LCMS / ELCA divide, and I have indeed heard real demanding comments from both sides. OTOH, the concern of confessional Lutherans about the influence of Protestantism is as old as the Formula of Concord. It is my fervent hope that my criticism of the views you have offered, where they differ from mine, have not been demeaning, nor personal, but based on an understanding of what scripture and the confessions teach. However, if they have come across as not being in keeping with Luther’s commentary on the 8th Commandment, then I sincerely apologize.

Jon

Very nice of you to say as much. You always renew my faith in Lutherans everyday

 

[EvangelCatholic]

EC,
I, like you, have been on both sides of the LCMS / ELCA divide, and I have indeed heard real demanding comments from both sides. OTOH, the concern of confessional Lutherans about the influence of Protestantism is as old as the Formula of Concord. It is my fervent hope that my criticism of the views you have offered, where they differ from mine, have not been demeaning, nor personal, but based on an understanding of what scripture and the confessions teach. However, if they have come across as not being in keeping with Luther’s commentary on the 8th Commandment, then I sincerely apologize.

Jon

EC…I mean this with no hurtful intent but from what I see you write, your views are sometimes not what mean orthodox Lutherans believe in. Sometimes they come across as being against the confessions. I could be completely off and speaking out of turn but it seems your love for women’s ordination, a shared Eucharist…etc is not in line with many Lutherans here. I have ran across Catholics on here with a more esoteric views of the Church that are not in line with Church teaching and I correct such views in the most charitable way I can. I do not believe Ben, Don, Jon and many other Lutherans mean to degrade you or say your beliefs do not matter, because they matter to you. We are, however, allowed to disagree on doctrines and beliefs as long as they are not attacking an individual. It happens sometimes and it makes me sad to see it. I will be the first to attack doctrine but I pray the last to attack the person.

Thank you, Jon and Dustin

I can get a little reactionary at times especially since there are not as many ELCA and Episcopalians on CAF compared to other Lutherans. Some comments are hurtful and I did consider leaving this site a few weeks ago. But people like Jon especially, have helped me settle down and not be so “thin-skinned.”

A former Missouri Synod Lutheran, I was educated from elementary school to seminary in the LCMS and have family members in that Synod. I have my disagreements with the LCMS but try hard never to attack the Synod or any other Christian denomination on this forum.

Dustin, I do consider myself an orthodox Christian and do not disagree with the Lutheran Confessions. I pray for unity within the One Holy, Apostolic and Catholic Church and am excited to see that Lutherans and Anglicans are moving in step with each other toward full merger some day. I fully understand that the issues of women and gay ordinations are controversial for some. But also believe that holy Church is struggling to understand God’s will and the Holy Spirit’s guidance.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Thank you, Jon and Dustin

Dustin, I do consider myself an orthodox Christian and do not disagree with the Lutheran Confessions. I pray for unity within the One Holy, Apostolic and Catholic Church and am excited to see that Lutherans and Anglicans are moving in step with each other toward full merger some day. I fully understand that the issues of women and gay ordinations are controversial for some. But also believe that holy Church is struggling to understand God’s will and the Holy Spirit’s guidance.

You’re welcome

I sincerely pray for unity as we all should. My thoughts on unity differ greaty from your thoughts however. Homosexuality and women in the pastoral role is against scripture and tradition. IMO, there really is no wiggle room for such and if that keeps us from unity to so be it but I will be deeply sadden by such.

I personally do not believe the Holy Spirit is guiding the Church to ordain an openly gay individual in an openly gay relationship. That would go against everything Christ taught us about marriage and the priesthood. I take no issue with married priest. I would welcome such a change if God deemed it so.

I often raise an eyebrow to some post you write but I am sure that goes both ways. I have so much love for orthodox Anglicanism and the lcms folks. I just cannot bring myself to embrace liberal lutheran and anglican sects. Maybe you can clear some of my confusion up for me.

I actually learned something the other day because of you. I was researching some topics you brought up and learned there is a Byzantine rite Lutheran church in the Ukraine.

 

[Peter_J]

:ehh:

I take no issue with married priest. I would welcome such a change if God deemed it so.

I would have said “the pope”.

 

[aidanbradypop]

:ehh:

I would have said “the pope”.

Who is guided by God

 

[EvangelCatholic]

In case one is interested in reading the document concerning Apostolic Succession per Provoo Communion and why American Lutherans have embraced AS.

The Historic Episcopal Succession as Sign.

The whole Church is a sign of the Kingdom of God; the act of ordination is a sign of God’s faithfulness to his Church, especially in relation to the oversight of its mission. To ordain a bishop in historic succession (that is, in intended continuity from the apostles themselves) is also a sign. In so doing the Church communicates its care for continuity in the whole of its life and mission, and reinforces its determination to manifest the permanent characteristics of the Church of the apostles. To make the meaning of the sign fully intelligible it is necessary to include in the service of ordination a public declaration of the faith of the Church and an exposition of the ministry to which the new bishop is called. In this way the sign of historic episcopal succession is placed clearly in its full context of the continuity of proclamation of the gospel of Christ and the mission of his Church.

The use of the sign of the historic episcopal succession does not by itself guarantee the fidelity of a church to every aspect of the apostolic faith, life and mission. There have been schisms in the history of churches using the sign of historic succession. Nor does the sign guarantee the personal faithfulness of the bishop. Nonetheless, the retention of the sign remains a permanent challenge to fidelity and to unity, a summons to witness to, and a commission to realise more fully, the permanent characteristics of the Church of the apostles.

Faithfulness to the apostolic calling of the whole Church is carried by more than one means of continuity. Therefore a church which has preserved the sign of historic episcopal succession is free to acknowledge an authentic episcopal ministry in a church which has preserved continuity in the episcopal office by an occasional priestly/presbyterial ordination at the time of the Reformation. Similarly a church which has preserved continuity through such a succession is free to enter a relationship of mutual participation in episcopal ordinations with a church which has retained the historical episcopal succession, and to embrace this sign, without denying its past apostolic continuity.

The mutual acknowledgement of our churches and ministries is theologically prior to the use of the sign of the laying on of hands in the historic succession. Resumption of the use of the sign does not imply an adverse judgement on the ministries of those churches which did not previously make use of the sign. It is rather a means of making more visible the unity and continuity of the Church at all times and in all places.

To the degree to which our ministries have been separated all our churches have lacked something of that fullness which God desires for his people (Eph. 1: 23 and 3: 17-19). By moving together, and by being served by a reconciled and mutually recognized episcopal ministry, our churches will be both more faithful to their calling and also more conscious of their need for renewal. By the sharing of our life and ministries in closer visible unity, we shall be strengthened for the continuation of Christ’s mission in the world.

porvoochurches.org/whatis/resources-0201-english-4.php

 

[Isaiah45_9]

In case one is interested in reading the document concerning Apostolic Succession per Provoo Communion and why American Lutherans have embraced AS.

porvoochurches.org/whatis/resources-0201-english-4.php

When you say American Lutherans, Are you including LCMS and WELS? If not, Would it not be fair for them to be as specific as possible?

Also, it would help if we can properly identify who are in the Porvoo Communion:

The Porvoo Communion is a Communion of churches, mostly in Northern Europe, that have signed an agreement to “share a common life in mission and service”. The churches that signed the agreement are The Evangelical-Lutheran Churches of Estonia, Lithuania, Sweden, Norway, Iceland and Finland and the Anglican churhces: Church of England and of Ireland, Church in Wales and the Scottish Episcopal Church. Two churches from South Europe also belong to the Porvoo Communion. They are the Lusitanian Church in Portugal and the Reformed Episcopal Church of Spain.
The Evangelical Lutheran Churches of Denmark and Latvia have not signed the Common Statement, but participated in the talks leading to the Porvoo Common Statement and have observatory status in Porvoo meetings. The Evangelical Lutheran Churches of Denmark has decided to sign the Porvoo Declaration and is expected to do so in 2010.

They also say:

The acknowledgement of oversight, the episcope, is also a uniting factor in Porvoo. All the Porvoo churches had maintained the tradition of episcopal oversight, from the time of Reformation, but not all maintained unbroken the apostolic succession. The Porvoo Common Statements deals with this in chapter IV.

But it fails to identify which did and which didn’t.

Further in their statement they say this:

1. There is a long-standing problem about episcopal ministry and its relation to
   succession. At the time of the Reformation all our churches ordained bishops
   (sometimes the term superintendent was used as a synonym for bishop) to the
   existing sees of the Catholic Church, indicating their intention to continue the
   life and ministry of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. In some of
   the territories the historic succession of bishops was maintained by episcopal
   ordination, whereas elsewhere on a few occasions bishops or superintendents
   were consecrated by priests following what was believed to be the precedent
   of the early Church. One consequence of this was a lack of unity between the
   ministries of our churches and thus a hindrance to our common witness,
   service and mission. The interruption of the episcopal succession has,
   nevertheless, in these particular churches always been accompanied by the
   intention and by measures to secure the apostolic continuity of the Church as a
   Church of the gospel served by an episcopal ministry. The subsequent
   tradition of these churches demonstrates their faithfulness to the apostolicity of
   the Church. In the last one hundred years all our churches have felt a growing
   need to overcome this difficulty and to give common expression to their
   continuous participation in the life of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic
   Church.

And again fail to identify the Churches with the issues or with the continuity.