Psalm 22, "They have pierced my hands and my feet."

  • Thread starter Thread starter itullian
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I

itullian

Guest
There seems to be a lot of controversy on this quote.

obviously if it’s accurate, it’s an amazing prophecy.

do we have any settlement on if this is a true translated passage?

thank you:)
 
Yes, not only does the ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, but the Dead Sea Scrolls has ka’aru ‘pierced’. Obviously the Greek Septuagint is a translation of the Hebrew from the Dead Sea Scroll reading. For many years Orthodox Jews accused Christians of changing the Scriptures because the Masoretic Text read **ka’ari **‘like a lion’ are my hands and feet, which really makes little sense. The Masoretic Text is not nearly as an ancient text as the Greek Septuagint or Dead Sea Scrolls, so if any text was altered it would seem as if the Masoretic Text was.

The Aramaic Peshitta also has pierced.
 
Hi, Tullian,

The controversy is not about its value as a prophecy, but about what the original text is supposed to be. One of them says “they bind my hands and feet”. This is the translation that the Bible de Jérusalem originally had. They later changed it to “as if to tear apart my hands and feet”. Which goes to show that this is not a very sure text. We should point out that no evangelist has that quote, whereas they don’t miss a single one of those that apply clearly to to Jesus’ passion.

One of my footnotes says that St. Jerome personally stood for
“bind” but the Vulgate has “pierced”. I guess he valued his life more than a shaky opinion. (The Vulgate was originally very badly received )

What do you think?

Verbum
 
Verbum said:
Hi, Tullian,

The controversy is not about its value as a prophecy, but about what the original text is supposed to be. One of them says “they bind my hands and feet”. This is the translation that the Bible de Jérusalem originally had. They later changed it to “as if to tear apart my hands and feet”. Which goes to show that this is not a very sure text. We should point out that no evangelist has that quote, whereas they don’t miss a single one of those that apply clearly to to Jesus’ passion.

One of my footnotes says that St. Jerome personally stood for
“bind” but the Vulgate has “pierced”. I guess he valued his life more than a shaky opinion. (The Vulgate was originally very badly received )

What do you think?

Verbum
Click to expand...
i don’t know. that’s why i asked. one source i read said the Jews added a verb in front of the whole phrase saying something like “he has attacked, like a lion, my hands and feet.”

maybe we can clear it up a bit here?🤷
 
itullian said:
i don’t know. that’s why i asked. one source i read said the Jews added a verb in front of the whole phrase saying something like “he has attacked, like a lion, my hands and feet.”

maybe we can clear it up a bit here?🤷
Click to expand...
No, the Masoretic text at this point has: “like a lion my hands and my feet.” Of course, by itself the text does not make any sense (there is no verb; they did what “like a lion”?) and hence is probably corrupt.
 
itullian said:
There seems to be a lot of controversy on this quote.

obviously if it’s accurate, it’s an amazing prophecy.

do we have any settlement on if this is a true translated passage?

thank you:)
Click to expand...
A lot of controversy? That is a vast understatement! Christian and Jewish scholars have been debating this verse for decades now. Believe me, there is NO settlement on the issue: I’ve been reading the differing perspectives for ages.
 
meltzerboy said:
A lot of controversy? That is a vast understatement! Christian and Jewish scholars have been debating this verse for decades now. Believe me, there is NO settlement on the issue: I’ve been reading the differing perspectives for ages.
Click to expand...
Decades? I say centuries.
 
The earliest certain “pierced” reading I’ve found is from St. Justin Martyr, about A.D. 155, who, quoting from Psalm 22:18, has, “They pierced my hands and feet.” (First Apology, chap. 35; and Dialogue with Trypho, chap. 97)
 
Can someone please help me out. I am trying to follow along, but I do not see the words “They have pierced my hands and my feet.” in my bible. (NAB).

What specific chapter and verse?
 
demetrios423 said:
Can someone please help me out. I am trying to follow along, but I do not see the words “They have pierced my hands and my feet.” in my bible. (NAB).

What specific chapter and verse?
Click to expand...
In the NAB-RE:

Psalm 22:17 Dogs surround me;
a pack of evildoers closes in on me.
They have pierced my hands and my feet
18 I can count all my bones.
They stare at me and gloat;
19 they divide my garments among them;
for my clothing they cast lots.

In the old version (the infamous Third Edition, I guess?) familiar to many of you:

17: Many dogs surround me;
a pack of evildoers closes in on me.
So wasted are my hands and feet
18: that I can count all my bones.
They stare at me and gloat;
19: they divide my garments among them;
for my clothing they cast lots.

In the original 1970 NAB:

17: Indeed, many dogs surround me,
a pack of evildoers closes in upon me;
They have pierced my hands and my feet;
18: I can count all my bones.
They look on and gloat over me;
19 they divide my garments among them,
and for my vesture they cast lots.
 
COPLAND_3 said:
Yes, not only does the ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, but the Dead Sea Scrolls has ka’aru ‘pierced’. Obviously the Greek Septuagint is a translation of the Hebrew from the Dead Sea Scroll reading. For many years Orthodox Jews accused Christians of changing the Scriptures because the Masoretic Text read **ka’ari **‘like a lion’ are my hands and feet, which really makes little sense. The Masoretic Text is not nearly as an ancient text as the Greek Septuagint or Dead Sea Scrolls, so if any text was altered it would seem as if the Masoretic Text was.
Click to expand...
It’s the Psalms scroll found in Naḥal Ḥever (aka 5/6ḤevPs), in line 12 of column 10. The Naḥal Ḥever scroll does have כארו “they dug/bored/pierced” (verb) in place of Masoretic כארי “like [a] lion” (noun), the difference resting on the easily-confused letters yod (י) and waw (ו), otherwise the text is very close to the Masoretic Text (Proto-Masoretic?)
 
patrick457 said:
In the NAB-RE:

Psalm 22:17 Dogs surround me;
a pack of evildoers closes in on me.
They have pierced my hands and my feet
18 I can count all my bones.
They stare at me and gloat;
19 they divide my garments among them;
for my clothing they cast lots.

In the old version (the infamous Third Edition, I guess?) familiar to many of you:

17: Many dogs surround me;
a pack of evildoers closes in on me.
So wasted are my hands and feet
18: that I can count all my bones.
They stare at me and gloat;
19: they divide my garments among them;
for my clothing they cast lots.

In the original 1970 NAB:

17: Indeed, many dogs surround me,
a pack of evildoers closes in upon me;
They have pierced my hands and my feet;
18: I can count all my bones.
They look on and gloat over me;
19 they divide my garments among them,
and for my vesture they cast lots.
Click to expand...
The NAB is the only Catholic Bible I have ever owned, why is it considered infamous?
 
demetrios423 said:
The NAB is the only Catholic Bible I have ever owned, why is it considered infamous?
Click to expand...
The 1991 Third Edition of the NAB is particularly ‘infamous’ because its translation of the Psalms was completely rewritten to introduce the use of extensive gender-neutral language, which led to the rejection of it (the Psalms) for liturgical use. Some Catholics (you can find a number of them here) also have some trouble with the NAB in general mainly because of its footnotes and prefaces.
 
patrick457 said:
The 1991 Third Edition of the NAB is particularly ‘infamous’ because its translation of the Psalms was completely rewritten to introduce the use of extensive gender-neutral language, which led to the rejection of it (the Psalms) for liturgical use. Some Catholics (you can find a number of them here) also have some trouble with the NAB in general mainly because of its footnotes and prefaces.
Click to expand...
doesn’t the NABr include gender neutral language? Which Bible should I be reading? I always thought the NAB was the best since it is what is used during mass.

Please excuse my ignorance. New Catholic.
 
Well the first thing you may have noticed is how Christians make a translation from the Hebrew to Greek and then to English ( The Septuagint is a translation of the Rabbis of the Torah [not of the prophets or writings] to Greek. In order to insure that their translation would not be tampered with they inserted 15 key passages in the Talmud - 13 of these passages appear in corrupted form in later Christian translations - not something that bodes well for relying on Christian translations of the text).

The second thing you might notice is how the Christian translation puts “Me” and “My” in capital letters to change the meaning to being a reference to the Christian god. This use of capitals is used repeatedly in Christian translations from the Hebrew. The thing is that there are no capitals in Hebrew. (For now lets put aside how antithetical that Christian concept of their god is to the Jewish scriptures and Jewish beliefs).

The third thing is how strange the word for piercing is. If the meaning was for pierced, why not use the word dakar- דקר or even ריצץ which would be far more usual.

The fourth thing is how we got to the word in the Christian translations. Instead of כארי (as a lion) supposedly what was written is כארו, in other words in a hand written manuscript the scribe lengthened the letter yod י and changed it into a vav ו - seemingly a simple scribal error.

The fifth thing is that the reference to a lion (אריה) which appears twice more in the Psalm is correctly translated as lion in the Christian translation - "like a raging and roaring lion - save me from the lion’s mouth.

The proper translation from the Hebrew is clear: “For dogs have surrounded me; a pack of evildoers have enclosed me, like (the prey of) a lion, are my hands and my feet.”

King David’s metaphor of the dog and the lion (menacing beasts) symbolizes David’s bitter foes that continually sought to destroy him. The verse is not in the future tense and is describing an historical event, not a messianic prophesy.
 
chosen_people said:
Well the first thing you may have noticed is how Christians make a translation from the Hebrew to Greek and then to English ( The Septuagint is a translation of the Rabbis of the Torah [not of the prophets or writings] to Greek. In order to insure that their translation would not be tampered with they inserted 15 key passages in the Talmud - 13 of these passages appear in corrupted form in later Christian translations - not something that bodes well for relying on Christian translations of the text).

The second thing you might notice is how the Christian translation puts “Me” and “My” in capital letters to change the meaning to being a reference to the Christian god. This use of capitals is used repeatedly in Christian translations from the Hebrew. The thing is that there are no capitals in Hebrew. (For now lets put aside how antithetical that Christian concept of their god is to the Jewish scriptures and Jewish beliefs).

The third thing is how strange the word for piercing is. If the meaning was for pierced, why not use the word dakar- דקר or even ריצץ which would be far more usual.

The fourth thing is how we got to the word in the Christian translations. Instead of כארי (as a lion) supposedly what was written is כארו, in other words in a hand written manuscript the scribe lengthened the letter yod י and changed it into a vav ו - seemingly a simple scribal error.

The fifth thing is that the reference to a lion (אריה) which appears twice more in the Psalm is correctly translated as lion in the Christian translation - "like a raging and roaring lion - save me from the lion’s mouth.

The proper translation from the Hebrew is clear: “For dogs have surrounded me; a pack of evildoers have enclosed me, like (the prey of) a lion, are my hands and my feet.”

King David’s metaphor of the dog and the lion (menacing beasts) symbolizes David’s bitter foes that continually sought to destroy him. The verse is not in the future tense and is describing an historical event, not a messianic prophesy.
Click to expand...
In so many of passages like this, Jewish scholars always point to historical events and Christian scholars always point to future prophecies. I don’t know if tense per se always matters, since one may be describing something in the past from the vantage point of after it already happened (the future anterior). However, the context of the passage, both within the text itself and across related texts, does matter and whether that context is more logically referring to the historical past.
 
Hui Demetrios,

If your bible uses the old numeration, then the verse is in Psalm 21.

Verbum
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top