Psalm 5: 7

[Jim_Baur]

I have a simple question: in Psalm 5: 7 the word* *“ta`ab” i**s translated in many English translations with hate or something similar.
I found one dictionary that said it could be translated oppose.

Is oppose a possible translation?I have always had trouble with God hating me because I am a sinner.

Also, how is it translated in the Septuagint?

Thanks!

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I do not think it means that God hates the man, but rather he hate’s the action, much like a parent hates it when their child lies to them.

 

[Sirach2]

I can see how upsetting this can be, Jim. This article may put your mind to ease a bit.
Latin: Odisti omnes, qui operantur iniquitatem, perdes omnes, qui loquuntur mendacium; virum sanguinum et dolosum abominabitur Dominus.

Translation: Thou **hatest **all the workers of iniquity, thou wilt destroy all that speak a lie; bloody and deceitful man the Lord will abhor.
Hate is comparative and usually best translated as ‘love less.’
From another source: Now large crowds were traveling with him; and he turned and said to them, "Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple.

"Miseo" is the Greek word which is translated “hate” in St. Luke 14:25-26. It has the fundamental sense of “separation” or “exclusion” of one from another – usually out of a fear of physical or spiritual harm. It doesn’t, therefore, include the “psychological sense” of anger or emotional “againstness” that modern English generally situates in the word “hate,” but rather describes one’s relational orientation towards another.

Informed by the linguistic roots of the word “miseo,” it seems clear that there is no emotional baggage in it, no anger or malicious disregard – as there is in the English word “hate.” Quite the contrary, in THIS context “miseo” has a very clear meaning:
it means to separate or remove one’s self from entangling relationships or circumstances which might come between the disciple and the master.

I understand this to be that God hates the sin, not the sinner.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

I have a simple question: in Psalm 5: 7 the word* *“ta`ab” i**s translated in many English translations with hate or something similar.
I found one dictionary that said it could be translated oppose.

Is oppose a possible translation?I have always had trouble with God hating me because I am a sinner.

Also, how is it translated in the Septuagint?

Thanks!

Usually the verb תעב (ta’av) is translated something like “abhor”. I’m not aware of any instances where the verb carries a positive connotation. A literal translation of the verse might go something like: “You will destroy the speaker of lies; the man of bloody deeds and deceit the LORD will abhor.”

The Septuagint uses bdelussomai, which is something like “cause to be detestable; cause to stink; cause to be loathed.”

perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dbdelu%2Fssomai

 

[po18guy]

Hate, in our culture, has taken on a quite different connotation from its original usage. As Sirach2 said, it is more akin to “prefer less” than to the anger, rage and violence that is associated with it these days.

I see it as far healthier to view love as to prefer more and hate as to prefer less. Clearly, Jesus was not advocating that we employ anger or rage against our families:

Luke 14:26
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Since He also confirmed this to the Pharisees:

Mark 7:10
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
10 For Moses said: Honor thy father and thy mother; and He that shall curse father or mother, dying let him die.

 

[Mystophilus]

"Miseo" is the Greek word which is translated “hate” in St. Luke 14:25-26. It has the fundamental sense of “separation” or “exclusion” of one from another – usually out of a fear of physical or spiritual harm. It doesn’t, therefore, include the “psychological sense” of anger or emotional “againstness” that modern English generally situates in the word “hate,” but rather describes one’s relational orientation towards another.

I am afraid that, linguistically, this is incorrect: μισεω does indeed connote that psychological sense, as is evident not only in its usage in Greek literature, but in such passages as Gen 26:27, Lev 19:17, Jdg11:7, and, of course, Mat 5:43-4.

Of course, simply reading it so literally in Lk 14:26 would have Jesus contradicting himself from Lk 10:26-8. The most obvious answer there is that he is once again being hyperbolic.

 

[Mystophilus]

I have a simple question: in Psalm 5: 7 the word* *“ta`ab” i**s translated in many English translations with hate or something similar.
I found one dictionary that said it could be translated oppose.

Is oppose a possible translation?I have always had trouble with God hating me because I am a sinner.

Also, how is it translated in the Septuagint?

As Dave Noonan says, the LXX renders it as “abhor”, roughly, using a word related to the term used for things which are “abominations” elsewhere. It is a very strongly negative term.

However, God does not hate you for being a sinner. In fact, God demonstrates his love for you in that, while you were yet a sinner, He sent His only Son to suffer and die for you (Rom 5:8).

Scripture frequently uses strong language to describe holy God’s abhorrence of wickedness, but the clearest evidence of His feeling for you is what He did in the Incarnation.

 

[R_C]

Could the workers of iniquity be the demons that tempt men?

Besides it is hard for me to believe that God is capable of hating at all…inasmuch as hatred is not a “thing” in itself, but rather the lack of love…and God is the fullness of love…

Anyways the Lord said it clearly: “I did not come to call the just, but sinners to repentance”.

 

[Sirach2]

I am afraid that, linguistically, this is incorrect: μισεω does indeed connote that psychological sense, as is evident not only in its usage in Greek literature, but in such passages as Gen 26:27, Lev 19:17, Jdg11:7, and, of course, Mat 5:43-4.

How do we know your version is correct? Is it your interpretation, or do you have another source that disagrees with the source I quoted from? Thanks

 

[Mystophilus]

How do we know your version is correct? Is it your interpretation, or do you have another source that disagrees with the source I quoted from? Thanks

Er, that was not “my” version.

The reference to the Greek usage of μισεω is a link to the LSJ, the most comprehensive lexicon of ancient Greek ever produced; its references, linked from that very page, are to the usage of the term all the way from Homer down to the LXX. That shows the Greek version, and you can look up all of the sources from there.

The references to the Scriptural usage are likewise not mine, but Scripture’s, and you can look up all of those in the Scriptures themselves.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

I can see how upsetting this can be, Jim. This article may put your mind to ease a bit.
Latin: Odisti omnes, qui operantur iniquitatem, perdes omnes, qui loquuntur mendacium; virum sanguinum et dolosum abominabitur Dominus.

Translation: Thou **hatest **all the workers of iniquity, thou wilt destroy all that speak a lie; bloody and deceitful man the Lord will abhor.
Hate is comparative and usually best translated as ‘love less.’
From another source: Now large crowds were traveling with him; and he turned and said to them, "Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple.

"Miseo" is the Greek word which is translated “hate” in St. Luke 14:25-26. It has the fundamental sense of “separation” or “exclusion” of one from another – usually out of a fear of physical or spiritual harm. It doesn’t, therefore, include the “psychological sense” of anger or emotional “againstness” that modern English generally situates in the word “hate,” but rather describes one’s relational orientation towards another.

Informed by the linguistic roots of the word “miseo,” it seems clear that there is no emotional baggage in it, no anger or malicious disregard – as there is in the English word “hate.” Quite the contrary, in THIS context “miseo” has a very clear meaning:
it means to separate or remove one’s self from entangling relationships or circumstances which might come between the disciple and the master.

I understand this to be that God hates the sin, not the sinner.

Your article (your link) is referring to the Hebrew word שנא; the word used in Psalm 5 that Jim is asking about is תעב . They are quite different in meaning.

 

[Mystophilus]

Your article (your link) is referring to the Hebrew word שנא; the word used in Psalm 5 that Jim is asking about is תעב . They are quite different in meaning.

Judging from your comment below, תעב is transliterated “ta’av”. For the ignorant among us who cannot read Hebrew (I did try to learn; I really did), how is the other one transliterated?

 

[Dave_Noonan]

Judging from your comment below, תעב is transliterated “ta’av”. For the ignorant among us who cannot read Hebrew (I did try to learn; I really did), how is the other one transliterated?

The other one is translated sana’ and is this Hebrew verb that is often (maybe always) translated by the Septuagint as miseo. Psalm 5:7 uses “ta’av” and not “sana’” I posted the Greek counterpart verb above in my first post, as well as a link to the appropriate Greek dictionary (LJS) entry so people can look at it for themselves.

 

[Mystophilus]

The other one is translated sana’ and is this Hebrew verb that is often (maybe always) translated by the Septuagint as miseo. Psalm 5:7 uses “ta’av” and not “sana’” I posted the Greek counterpart verb above in my first post, as well as a link to the appropriate Greek dictionary (LJS) entry so people can look at it for themselves.

Thanks.

Not even being able to read the alphabet makes the occasional looking up of Hebrew terms much more difficult.