Psychology, Vs. Relgion, Homosexuals

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jessup
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Perspective plays a huge role in psychology, in the natural sciences it should play none. Psychology isn’t a science to the degree that the natural sciences are.
If it follows the scientific method, it is equally a science. As technology improves, psychological findings will become more correct and definitive.
It is easy to know that biology, chemistry, and physics are science. It is all about observable data. The only way in which philosophy is important is that you must accept the scientific method.
That is completely untrue. “Observable data” already presupposes philosophical axioms. Have you taken many courses in the philosophy of science? If philosophy is not a part of natural science, perhaps you should let the professors at Oxford know; they seem to be unaware.
 
Every single one? And they all have exactly the same political leanings? Are you suggesting that the ones in places like Sierra Leon, Iraq and Afghanistan have not succumbed to this political pressure?

And what is your definition of ‘political leanings’? Something tells me it’s based on decisions that don’t match your particular political beliefs.
I have not evaluated every single professional organization. I can say that politics plays a role and I do not mean Republican versus Democrat. Take position papers as one example. Are you claiming that these groups base their positions simply on the “science” that they claim to explain?

How the studies get included or excluded, how those on any particular committee get chosen to review studies, how they decide on what is health or pathology, and much more is not based on what people often think is “science” as in objective, impartial, and devoid of any bias.
 
If it follows the scientific method, it is equally a science. As technology improves, psychological findings will become more correct and definitive.

That is completely untrue. “Observable data” already presupposes philosophical axioms. Have you taken many courses in the philosophy of science? If philosophy is not a part of natural science, perhaps you should let the professors at Oxford know; they seem to be unaware.
You can claim it all day, it doesn’t make it so. Psychology will always have to prove itself worthy to call itself science.

The reason I haven’t taken a philosophy of science class is because it doesn’t matter. I majored in biology and never took a philosophy of science class. I took physics, chemistry, and biology, but never philosophy.

Psychology is different. Most psychologists will tell you straight out that its roots are in philosophy. Go to Duquesne University and talk to the professors there about psychology and they will tell you the importance of philosophy for psychology. In fact, if you don’t have some philosophy background, especially continental philosophy you will have a hard time getting in. That is an accredited university and program.
 
You can claim it all day, it doesn’t make it so.
Please remember your own words.
Psychology will always have to prove itself worthy to call itself science.
It already has; it has nothing further to prove. Psychological experiments are conducted in accordance with the scientific method, and these form the core of psychology.

The fact that there have been individuals who have not observed these requirements of science means nothing as to the actual discipline.
The reason I haven’t taken a philosophy of science class is because it doesn’t matter.
Maybe not to you, but science operates on philosophical axioms. Empiricism is not self-evident; it requires philosophical axioms to justify it, as I mentioned.
Psychology is different. Most psychologists will tell you straight out that its roots are in philosophy.
Its methodology is now scientific.
 
Please remember your own words.

It already has; it has nothing further to prove. Psychological experiments are conducted in accordance with the scientific method, and these form the core of psychology.
The fact that there have been individuals who have not observed these requirements of science means nothing as to the actual discipline.
 
Psychiatrists are doctors. Second, the way Homosexuality was removed as a disorder from the DSM in 1973 shows that outside pressure, not scientific research, was involved.

amazon.com/Homosexuality-American-Psychiatry-Politics-Diagnosis/dp/0691028370

Peace,
Ed
A BLATANT LIE

Its even more blatant that u give link to this book which perfectly describes how exactly it was removed. And oh boy, ur religious charlatans from NARTH are really *** =)

First of all, the **majority **of scientists supported the results of new researches conducted among other scientists by Evelyn Hooker

Second, religiously ill “doctors” who opposed removing homosexuality were given 3 times, i repeat 3 times a chance to prove that thay were right in debates. They didnt manage to present any scientific evidence supporting their degenerative and outdated theories.

And finally, this is the funny part,** OPPONENTS OF REMOVING HOMOSEXUALITY FROM THE MENTAL DESEASES “LIST” INITIATED THE INFAMOUS VOTING PROCESS!!!** They found a"loophole" in legal documents of APA and when they lost scientific “battle” 3 times they decided to win … by voting. Guess what my dear friend- they LOST.Again. By HUGE numbers.
Pathetic creatures.

You give link to a book and you havent even read it.

What a joke

We, healthcare professionals, actually recommend this book as it clealry shows that removing it was the right choice. Actually there couldnt be any chocie at all if we were to stand on scientific grounds

PS detailed analysis of the book and shady conclusions religious zealots made of it concealing the truth behind the greatest victory of science against obscurantism
rainbowallianceopenfaith.homestead.com/TVC_APA.html
 
Actually, the fact that Duquesne is APA accredited, it shows a great deal. Psychology isn’t based on science, but on philosophy. Science has become a part of the study, but by no means is it the core.
Duquesne is one university with a good sense of training that applies to all sciences.

If some psychologists choose to engage with philosophy, fine – so do some physicists. That does not change the fact that psychology can be studied without philosophy and using only the scientific method.

Physics and chemistry started from philosophy as well; read up on your Ancient Greeks.
These experiments don’t form the core of psychology. That place is held by philosophy
That is false. One can practice psychology operating only on the scientific method.
Psychology and philosophy are married, and can not be separated.
You say those words knowing they are false – again, I can
And that is the way it has to be, because behavior doesn’t necessarily follow any laws.
In the aggregate, it does. Hence the need for determining that behavior, i.e. the field of psychology’s goals.

Consider the APA’s definition:
APA:
Psychology is the study of the mind and behavior. The discipline embraces all aspects of the human experience — from the functions of the brain to the actions of nations, from child development to care for the aged. In every conceivable setting from scientific research centers to mental health care services, “the understanding of behavior” is the enterprise of psychologists.
APA:
APA seeks to advance psychology as a science, a profession and as a means of promoting health, education and human welfare. We do this by:
Code:
Encouraging the development and application of psychology in the broadest manner

Promoting research in psychology, the improvement of research methods and conditions and the application of research findings...
Again, no one is saying that not a single psychologist uses philosophy. One would be likewise incorrect in saying that not a single physicist nor chemist uses philosophy. Psychology nevertheless does not require any philosophical presuppositions beyond those required by the other sciences.

For your edification, here are Wikipedia entries on the philosophy behind psychology:

Philosophy of psychology
Philosophy of mind

cf.

Philosophy of biology
Philosophy of chemistry
Philosophy of physics
Philosophy of artificial intelligence
Some of its methodology is scientific. You said in a post above that psychology is based on ‘studies’. That doesn’t make it scientific. Many/most of these studies are simply correlational studies, which are nonscientific.
All natural sciences are subject to some of the same constraints; the studies still operate using the scientific method.
 
Baelor;9862743:
Please remember your own words.

It already has; it has nothing further to prove. Psychological experiments are conducted in accordance with the scientific method, and these form the core of psychology.

Actually, the fact that Duquesne is APA accredited, it shows a great deal. Psychology isn’t based on science, but on philosophy. Science has become a part of the study, but by no means is it the core.

These experiments don’t form the core of psychology. That place is held by philosophy. Just because experiments are performed, doesn’t make them the core. It is only over the last 70 or 80 years that there has been an emphasis on the scientific nature of psychology.

Yeh, to take a step out the front door requires that much philosophy. As I mentioned, science includes philosophy in as much as it follows the scientific method. In psychology you have people who follow Schiller, Kierkegard, Heigel, Husserl, and any other philosopher. You have Thomistic psychologists (they are actually vocal about denying that psychology is a science). Duquesne University psych program claims to be a world renowned center for existential phenomenology. Psychology and philosophy are married, and can not be separated. The natural sciences might be based on the concept of empiricism and reason, but that is it. There is no attempt to incorporate Husserl or Neitschze or any other philosopher.

And that is the way it has to be, because behavior doesn’t necessarily follow any laws. Since there aren’t any laws to behavior, it will always maintain a tenuous relationship with science.

Some
of its methodology is scientific. You said in a post above that psychology is based on ‘studies’. That doesn’t make it scientific. Many/most of these studies are simply correlational studies, which are nonscientific.

Since when are correlational studies unscientific? So long as they are not used to indicate causation, they can indeed be useful: for example, in falsifying theories based on causation, by showing that the variables are not correlated and thus lack a causal relationship, as well as suggesting the possibility of a third variable which is causal or a bidirectional link between two correlated variables.
 
**
A BLATANT LIE**

Its even more blatant that u give link to this book which perfectly describes how exactly it was removed. And oh boy, ur religious charlatans from NARTH are really fooked=)

First of all, the **majority **of scientists supported the results of new researches conducted among other scientists by Evelyn Hooker

Second, religiously ill “doctors” who opposed removing homosexuality were given 3 times, i repeat 3 times a chance to prove that thay were right in debates. They didnt manage to present any scientific evidence supporting their degenerative and outdated theories.

And finally, this is the funny part,** OPPONENTS OF REMOVING HOMOSEXUALITY FROM THE MENTAL DESEASES “LIST” INITIATED THE INFAMOUS VOTING PROCESS!!!** They found a"loophole" in legal documents of APA and when they lost scientific “battle” 3 times they decided to win … by voting. Guess what my dear friend- they LOST.Again. By HUGE numbers.
Pathetic creatures.

You give link to a book and you havent even read it.

What a joke

We, healthcare professionals, actually recommend this book as it clealry shows that removing it was the right choice. Actually there couldnt be any chocie at all if we were to stand on scientific grounds

PS detailed analysis of the book and shady conclusions religious zealots made of it concealing the truth behind the greatest victory of science against obscurantism
rainbowallianceopenfaith.homestead.com/TVC_APA.html
Evelyn Hooker (and what a name for a sex therapist!), to her credit, abandoned her previous conversion treatment for homosexuals, which she stated was based on faulty science.
 
Jessup,

Explain how you went from no longer a mental disorder and then conclude thus having superior authority. How is it this is superior authority and to whom is it superior authority?
I think you have entirely misunderstood the context of this discussion.
The topic is, who has made the authority in psychology,
with I later found out was psychiatry; an authority over christian Judea values.
In regards to homosexuality not being a disorder. Under which authority does this trump Christian Judea values? that was the topic, you’ve taken it all out of context.
Cheers!👍
 
I regards to homosexuality not being a disorder. Under which authority does this trump Christian Judea values?
Judeo-Christian values are not concerned with the scientific classification of homosexuality. They are considered with morality and how homosexuality fits into that framework.

The APA is not concerned with morality, only with its form of scientific classification.

Comparing them makes no sense whatsoever. The APA is not attempting to “trump” Judeo-Christian values, nor does its classification of homosexuality have any relevance to whether it is moral or not, a question that does not concern the APA.
 
When I took my gen ed psychology class, it was the most depressing thing I’ve ever sat through, do you feel many of your peers are depressed in your industry working as therapist?
Generally, a person taking a general education introductionary psychology course is getting a general overview of the relatively short history of psychology, usually hitting upon the big ones like Freud, Adler, Piaget, Super, Satir… I have actually not heard anyone state that a gen ed psychology class was depressing, and especially do not think that because of a gen ed class that one takes at 18 years old for a semester does the subject justice. A very young undergraduate student may “feel” a class to be “depressing” I suppose (I sensed this in some of my particularly secular social studies classes, but I did not think the entire classification of social studies itself to be irretrievably flawed). However, when you get into graduate level work on nearly any subject it takes you to academic and personal levels not possible during an undergraduate degree.

I have many collegues and friends in the psychology field. Statistically, they are depressed at the rate on par with the rest of the population, if not less so. If you’ve ever come across any of my previous posts, you’d know I have a genetic cancer disease: brain & spinal cord tumors, and pancreatic cancer. I’ve had extreme amounts of pain, suffering, death, and loss in my life–a lot of fodder for depression to feed upon–but people who know me would say I am one of the least-depressed people out there.

The impact that individual psychology theories has had on Western thought is enormous during the last century. There are dozens of texts that delineate this thought so I will not give a poor rendering here.
 
I think you have entirely misunderstood the context of this discussion.
The topic is, who has made the authority in psychology,
with I later found out was psychiatry; an authority over christian Judea values.
In regards to homosexuality not being a disorder. Under which authority does this trump Christian Judea values? that was the topic, you’ve taken it all out of context.
Cheers!👍
There are disorders that are almost 100% medical/biological. There are disorders that are almost 100% psychological. Aaaannnnnddddd, everything in between. We are so incredibly complex that it takes great delicacy to treat human suffering properly, ethically, compassionately. Take, a person with generalized anxiety disorder (GAD), or PTSD. If a psychologist (note, not an MD) treats it as solely a psychological issue, s/he may try some exposure therapies, cognitive behavior techiques, recommend a physician prescribe some psychotropics. Say this same person is treated by a internal medicine doctor, or a psychiatrist (an MD), and s/he views the anxiety symptoms as strictly somatic and looks to relieve the person of the physical symptoms of anxiety.

Who is right? It depends on the person being diagnosed. If a person has a pheocromocytoma, then the MD is right, it is somatic, and it would be best to find that pheo and have it removed asap (a pheo is a tumor on the adrenal gland, symptomology includes rage and anxiety). If the person has a recent trauma, the psychotherapist/psychologist may be right. HOWEVER, being right does not mean MORALLY SUPERIOR. And THAT point is where people get so irrationally involved emotionally. In my opinion, the point for me, as a therapist, is to help bring relief to the suffering patient, be it psychological, physical, or spiritual. Finding the etiology of the problem does not mean finding the moral cause of the problem and make a person feel morally inferior because of it. Our churches have greatly confused this point. I think it is a shame and I think it is a disservice to the many hurting people out there.

Now, to your question of homosexuality. The DSM removed it at some point as it does not consider the behavior disordered, from the APA standpoint. I see nothing wrong with this. The DMS is an excellent diagnostic tool, as well as a great way to communicate information between a treatment team on what is going on for a patient. There are disorders (I can’t remember them off the top of my head) that are only disorders if the client is bothered by them–I think fetishes are one. If it doesn’t bother a person that he has a shoe fettish, then it is NOT a disorder, but if the client is bothered by the fetish, it IS. If dealing with homosexuality is bothersome to a patient, it would probably be categorized in the DSM-speak as an Axis IV relationship issue, social problems, or even an ego identity issue, possibly an Axis I Adjustment Disorder. But being homosexual is not disordered in and of it self. One may decide that religiously and morally homosexuality is unacceptable, but that is a separate issue from disordered psychologocial behavior.

Good questions.
 
The problem is these groups are not simply science based organizations but they have a large political component as well. Even the science aspect is not beyond assailability.

Our scientistic culture does not look critically at these groups and often accepts whatever their current opinion happens to be.
Dear fix,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope all is well. Hear, hear to those remarks above.

It is jolly telling, dear friend, that the American Psychiatric Association (1973), to which edwest made reference earlier, voted to exclude homosexuality from its official list of mental disorders.

This change in perception rests upon the supposition that the homosexual condition is biologically determined and unchangeable. A great deal of the current literature focuses on the need to help homosexuals embrace their sexuality (in other words embrace a lifestyle that is intrinsically disordered, involving detestable acts of depravity) and cope with discrimination. Indeed, there are those within the A.P.A. who have been calling for a ban on reparative therapy to change the homosexual propensity.

Now that homosexuality has attained non-pathological status it is increasingly difficult to ask fundamental questions or to undertake research which dares to challenge the prevailing orthodoxy. As on commentator has put it, “this is an area, par excellence, where scientific objectivity has little chance of survival” (J. Bancroft).

Incontrovertibly, the A.P.A. is clearly not objective and impartial, dear friend, and would appear to be favourably disposed to the homosexual activist movement. Apparently, it has now changed its view regarding the homosexual ‘gene’. How very strange there is always some ‘why’ to account for the fact that a minority of the population has a homosexual dispostion!

The homosexual condition is, in any case, not a mental illness (though it is often its cause) but rather an evidence of the sad effect of man’s fallen estate on account of Original Sin. Moreover, man is born into an already very imperfect world and brings with him a wounded nature that is continually manifesting itself in various ways, homosexual deviant behaviour being just one such way. Unfortunately, dear friend, our personalities are complexes of all manner of sinful desires and no aspect of our humanity escapes unscathed and that includes our sexuality. We may, therefore, inherit various tendencies to revolt against God’s good order of things and we may respond in a sinful way to the diverse influences to which we are subjected. This is simply part of the fallen human condition.

Having said this, I would not stop to deny that other issues have to be factored in as regards the development of a homosexual attraction (e.g. parent-child relationships; peer interactions, homosexual parent and of course child molestation). However, without giving the impression of wanting to retreat into a supposedly simplistic analysis, the homosexual condition must ultimately and always be traced back to an unhappy consequence of the sinful Fall of our race, for that is its true genesis.

Homosexuality, dear friend, is a sin and not a sickness. The concept of illness can all too easily be expounded at the expense of the concept of moral failure. To identify sinful actions as a sickness is surely the final triumph of medicine over morals - indeed, it virtually spells the end of all moral judgement. Thus, in many respects, removing homosexuality from the list of mental illnesses by the A.P.A. was clearly no bad thing* per se*, for it is decidedly not a mental illness. What in fact was wrong was the ideology and influence of homosexual activism that led to its removal.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
Now that homosexuality has attained non-pathological status it is increasingly difficult to ask fundamental questions or to undertake research which dares to challenge the prevailing orthodoxy. As on commentator has put it, “this is an area, par excellence, where scientific objectivity has little chance of survival” (J. Bancroft).

Incontrovertibly, the A.P.A. is clearly not objective and impartial, dear friend, and would appear to be favourably disposed to the homosexual activist movement. Apparently, it has now changed its view regarding the homosexual ‘gene’. How very strange there is always some ‘why’ to account for the fact that a minority of the population has a homosexual dispostion!
Well done. It is not only this one issue either. There are plenty of areas that are politically driven. People need to discern among good science, public policy, politics, and moral reasoning. Right now they look to these groups as almost infallible.
 
To be clear, the Church considers homosexual acts a sin. I am sure that is what you meant.
Dear Baelor,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Indeed, quite so.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
There are disorders that are almost 100% medical/biological. There are disorders that are almost 100% psychological. Aaaannnnnddddd, everything in between. We are so incredibly complex that it takes great delicacy to treat human suffering properly, ethically, compassionately. Take, a person with generalized anxiety disorder (GAD), or PTSD. If a psychologist (note, not an MD) treats it as solely a psychological issue, s/he may try some exposure therapies, cognitive behavior techiques, recommend a physician prescribe some psychotropics. Say this same person is treated by a internal medicine doctor, or a psychiatrist (an MD), and s/he views the anxiety symptoms as strictly somatic and looks to relieve the person of the physical symptoms of anxiety.

Who is right? It depends on the person being diagnosed. If a person has a pheocromocytoma, then the MD is right, it is somatic, and it would be best to find that pheo and have it removed asap (a pheo is a tumor on the adrenal gland, symptomology includes rage and anxiety). If the person has a recent trauma, the psychotherapist/psychologist may be right. HOWEVER, being right does not mean MORALLY SUPERIOR. And THAT point is where people get so irrationally involved emotionally. In my opinion, the point for me, as a therapist, is to help bring relief to the suffering patient, be it psychological, physical, or spiritual. Finding the etiology of the problem does not mean finding the moral cause of the problem and make a person feel morally inferior because of it. Our churches have greatly confused this point. I think it is a shame and I think it is a disservice to the many hurting people out there.

Now, to your question of homosexuality. The DSM removed it at some point as it does not consider the behavior disordered, from the APA standpoint. I see nothing wrong with this. The DMS is an excellent diagnostic tool, as well as a great way to communicate information between a treatment team on what is going on for a patient. There are disorders (I can’t remember them off the top of my head) that are only disorders if the client is bothered by them–I think fetishes are one. If it doesn’t bother a person that he has a shoe fettish, then it is NOT a disorder, but if the client is bothered by the fetish, it IS. If dealing with homosexuality is bothersome to a patient, it would probably be categorized in the DSM-speak as an Axis IV relationship issue, social problems, or even an ego identity issue, possibly an Axis I Adjustment Disorder. But being homosexual is not disordered in and of it self. One may decide that religiously and morally homosexuality is unacceptable, but that is a separate issue from disordered psychologocial behavior.

Good questions.
Life,

Not everyone is agreed on the usefulness and the credibility of the DSM. William Glasser, M.D. is opposed to the DSM. What you don’t say about the DSM is what should be said and that is that it has not always been what you say it is and that should be taken into account. It commenced as an army manual and is presently other than what it was proposed to be and has become as found below…

treatmentadvocacycenter.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1708&Itemid=97

and later volumes you will see did not propose to be diagnostic manuals but rather classifications of reactions…

bipolarworld.net/Bipolar%20Disorder/History/hist4.htm
The first edition (DSM-I) was published in 1952, and had about 60 different disorders.
DSM-II was published in 1968.
Both of these editions were strongly influenced by the psychodynamic approach. There was no sharp distinction between normal and abnormal, and all disorders were considered reactions to environmental events. Mental disorders existed on a continuum of behavior. This way, everyone is more or less abnormal. The people with more severe abnormalities have more severe difficulties with functioning.
psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2011/07/02/how-the-dsm-developed-what-you-might-not-know/all/1/
 
Life,

Not everyone is agreed on the usefulness and the credibility of the DSM. William Glasser, M.D. is opposed to the DSM. What you don’t say about the DSM is what should be said and that is that it has not always been what you say it is and that should be taken into account. It commenced as an army manual and is presently other than what it was proposed to be and has become as found below…

treatmentadvocacycenter.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1708&Itemid=97

and later volumes you will see did not propose to be diagnostic manuals but rather classifications of reactions…

bipolarworld.net/Bipolar%20Disorder/History/hist4.htm

I read your links and am not sure what the issue is. As a mental health professional, I find the DSM an extremely useful tool, mostly to communicate between other professionals and third parties. Is it a perfect system? No, but it is what we have and as a therapist I use the DSM regularly, while at the same time acknowledging its limitations.

psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2011/07/02/how-the-dsm-developed-what-you-might-not-know/all/1/
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top