Public healthcare is not anti Catholic

[hellopeople]

Half right.

We have a responsibility to the poor, the marginalized, the sick, the hungry.

Concluding from that “public healthcare” - just another name for socialized medicine - is moral is more than a stretch. All true Christians, certainly all true Catholics should oppose it:

“…Socialism…cannot be reconciled with the teachings of the Catholic Church because its concept of society itself is utterly foreign to Christian truth.”
QUADRAGESIMO ANNO, 117, Encyclical of Pope Pius XI
Reconstruction of the Social Order, May 15, 1931

“…no Catholic [can] subscribe even to moderate Socialism.”
MATER ET MAGISTRA, 34, Pope John XXIII
On Christianity and Social Progress, May 15, 1961

“Socialists…debase the natural union of man and woman…the [family] bond they…deliver up to lust. Lured…by the greed of present goods…they assail the right of property. While they seem desirous of caring for the needs and satisfying the desires of all men, they strive to seize and hold in common whatever has been acquired either by title, by labor, or by thrift.”
QUOD APOSTOLICI MUNERIS, 1, Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII
On Socialism, December 28, 1878

(quotes compiled by ibkc)

All true Catholics should oppose socialized health care? Are you SERIOUS? Rich people paying a bit extra so that less fortunate people can get health care is immoral and rich people hoarding their money so that less fortunate people don’t have health care and are crushed financially (more than they already are) if there is serious need for medical attention is what a true Catholic should support?

I can’t even believe someone would profess this.

Looks like some of you have been fooled by Fox News.

 

[hellopeople]

No, that is not what he is saying. He is saying that he, like all citizens in a republic, should have a voice in the laws that are passed. He objects to Congress doing this against the will of the people.

Forced charity is not charity but theft.

Charitable actions need to be a moral choice and made, or rejected, by the individuals free will. If that were not true, you could simply ensure people do not sin by passing a law.

Supporter of this law are supporters of abortion, contraception and the violating religious liberty. There is no getting away from that. A supporter can try to rationalize this all they want, but in the end, if a person supports this law, they are supporting grave immorality.

Forced charity is not charity but theft? What about someone that doesn’t want to pay into public school taxes? What about someone that says “I don’t have kids, I don’t want to pay.” Should they be forced to pay the tax anyway? What about someone that doesn’t drive a car and doesn’t care about the conditions of roads? Should that person pay into taxes that go into fixing roads? What about someone that doesn’t think they will have a fire so they do not want to pay taxes for a fire department? Should that person have to pay taxes to support the fire department?

Do you see what I am saying here…do you consider all of these taxes theft? Do you think we should only pay the taxes we want? You choose a tax that actually gives back to the poor and say it is Unchristian…PATHETIC.

 

[elts1956]

lol…You are saying “I have enough money to live comfortably and pay taxes so that other less fortunate people can have healthcare like myself…but I don’t want to do this.”

I am being cheated in two ways. The government is going to rob me to pay paul. I also won’t get the full benefit of being “Christian” and helping the poor because I am being forced to do this.

Much is being taken away from what we already have to support this nonsense. Nonsense the way this so called health bill is laid out now. Pure socialism. And no I don’t like it. As far as having enough money, how does pay check to pay check sound?

 

[markomalley]

Forced charity is not charity but theft? What about someone that doesn’t want to pay into public school taxes? What about someone that says “I don’t have kids, I don’t want to pay.” Should they be forced to pay the tax anyway? What about someone that doesn’t drive a car and doesn’t care about the conditions of roads? Should that person pay into taxes that go into fixing roads? What about someone that doesn’t think they will have a fire so they do not want to pay taxes for a fire department? Should that person have to pay taxes to support the fire department?

Do you see what I am saying here…do you consider all of these taxes theft? Do you think we should only pay the taxes we want? You choose a tax that actually gives back to the poor and say it is Unchristian…PATHETIC.

So the Holy Father is Unchristian?

One possible approach to development aid would be to apply effectively what is known as fiscal subsidiarity, allowing citizens to decide how to allocate a portion of the taxes they pay to the State.

- Caritas in Veritate, 60
​

Very interesting.

 

[Newbie2]

In fact, you could make the argument that universal health care is actually something Jesus would support. With universal healthcare, people that are poor and would not be able to afford insurance can actually get insurance…isn’t helping the poor one of Jesus’ biggest messages?

***What I am saying is that MANY countries around the world have universal healthcare and it works a lot better than America’s healthcare ***(before the obamaplan or whatever you want to call it). I just think that a lot of Catholics tend to lean to the right because of Republicans’ stance on abortion, and going against this healthcare is part of being conservative.

I am just wondering, for all those that do not support Obama’s healthcare plan…do you think that countries such as France, Canada, England, etc should be fighting to privatize health care? Should they be against their universal healthcare systems? If you don’t think so, then why are you so against America’s government healthcare?

I guess it depends on whether or not one has what they consider adequate healthcare. I do, and I want no part of government healthcare. I’m not opposed to having a reasonable amount of tax money that goes to communal health care, but:

1. Not when it does so like Obamacare
2. Not when it’s done in a way that is designed to totally socialize health care (eventually taking away the private health care that I have now and am perfectly happy with)
3. The Federal government can’t keep Medicare and Medicade out of the red; how can anyone think this monstrosity won’t get out of control and suck the life out of our economy?
4. Waste and Corruption define the federal government. I don’t mind helping out those in need but I vehemently oppose giving my hard earned money to a government that will **** it away through corruption and waste so that those who really need it will only get a small part of what comes in through taxes.
5. Related to #4, there is plenty of money in the federal government that could be used for helping the poor out with health care if corruption, waste and TORT REFORM were addressed.

I totally agree with the OP. Jesus wanted us to look after the vulnerable and be truly pro-life - so all true Christians should support public healthcare.

Sure. But one of the few groups of people that Jesus really got mad at was the moneychangers in the temple, over their corruption. I’d think he’s get more than a little angry over those who allow stealing through corruption and waste, money that people are giving up to be used to help others.

I think most Christians have no problem with the notion of providing some form of public health care for those who need it, but the devil’s in the details, so they say. It’s HOW such care is provided and is paid for that many of object to, especially Obamacare.

 

[Black_Rose]

Charitable actions need to be a moral choice and made, or rejected, by the individuals free will. If that were not true, you could simply ensure people do not sin by passing a law.

That does not seem consistent with the views advocated in the “social justice” forum here where abortion is not only deemed morally unacceptable, but many also advocate that it be curtailed by rule of law. In the case of abortion, there is no distinction in attitudes between immorality of abortion help by some groups and the rule of law which is to be universally obeyed.

See this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=443731

 

[markomalley]

That does not seem consistent with the views advocated in the “social justice” forum here where abortion is not only deemed morally unacceptable, but many also advocate that it be curtailed by rule of law. In the case of abortion, there is no distinction in attitudes between immorality of abortion help by some groups or the rule of law which is to be universally obeyed.

See this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=443731

Did you ever consider that with a completed abortion, your personal immoral act ends with the death of another?

I usually say that I will be happy to be 100% pro-choice if somebody can explain to me what crime the baby committed that is deserving of the death penalty. Nobody has yet been able to do so. Would you like to take a shot at it?

 

[elts1956]

That does not seem consistent with the views advocated in the “social justice” forum here where abortion is not only deemed morally unacceptable, but many also advocate that it be curtailed by rule of law. In the case of abortion, there is no distinction in attitudes between immorality of abortion help by some groups and the rule of law which is to be universally obeyed.

See this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=443731

Two different things, anti abortion laws would give protection to the most vulnerable. The Health Care regime as it now exists takes away rights from ALL people. This government is teaching its citizens to become dependent on it, thereby taking away our independence.

 

[choy]

i still don’t get why Americans are so afraid of socialized medicine

in the last 2 weeks, my son was born via c-section, then a few days later was diagnosed with intestinal malrotation and was immediately operated on and spent the next 9 days in the hospital

guess how much i spent? roughly $100. yes, the surgery, doctor’s fee, medicine, even the diapers were free. but Canadian hospitals have ridiculously expensive parking lots

i don’t see why that should be anti-Catholic. our baby was breached and it would have been a difficult birth if not for c-section, would have been expensive if we were to pay for it.

plus, intestinal malrotation means there’s a blockage in the instestines, which means he couldn’t take in any food. imagine, if i just paid for the c-section, would i be able to afford the corrective surgery that would mean my son can start eating?

of course i would have still went with both surgeries. but if i wasn’t in Canada, i’d be dirt poor right now.

and when i was in the Children’s Hospital, i look around and see all the unfortunate children who were in difficult conditions receiving the best care they can possible get. i come from the Philippines so i have seen people who are too poor to even get a consultation. there is big government fund for public health in the Philippines but since 60% of the population are poor, the hospitals and public health clinics are packed with people who line up for hours just to see a doctor. and since doctors don’t get paid as well in that system, most of the doctors are young and inexperienced who has to go through the mandatory 2-year service through public hospitals before they can start practicing in private hospitals and make most of their money. so while the poor do get some care, its not equal care, and a lot would just get worse and die in their conditions, which would have been treatable had money not been an issue.

so i fully believe public health is very, very Catholic. we should do what we can as a society to help everyone enjoy their lives to the fullest. if anyone’s house burns, you call 911 and the fire truck arrives, regardless if you have a mansion or a one bedroom run-down apartment. if there’s a crime, the police arrive. if there’s someone hurt or seriously ill, the ambulance arrive. but why should public funding stop when the ambulance drops you off in the hospital? it just doesn’t make sense

 

[TenBobNote]

All true Catholics should oppose socialized health care? Are you SERIOUS? Rich people paying a bit extra so that less fortunate people can get health care is immoral and rich people hoarding their money so that less fortunate people don’t have health care and are crushed financially (more than they already are) if there is serious need for medical attention is what a true Catholic should support?

I can’t even believe someone would profess this.

Looks like some of you have been fooled by Fox News.

A good read for you may be “Economics in One Lesson” by Henry Hazlitt

 

[hellopeople]

i still don’t get why Americans are so afraid of socialized medicine

in the last 2 weeks, my son was born via c-section, then a few days later was diagnosed with intestinal malrotation and was immediately operated on and spent the next 9 days in the hospital

guess how much i spent? roughly $100. yes, the surgery, doctor’s fee, medicine, even the diapers were free. but Canadian hospitals have ridiculously expensive parking lots

i don’t see why that should be anti-Catholic. our baby was breached and it would have been a difficult birth if not for c-section, would have been expensive if we were to pay for it.

plus, intestinal malrotation means there’s a blockage in the instestines, which means he couldn’t take in any food. imagine, if i just paid for the c-section, would i be able to afford the corrective surgery that would mean my son can start eating?

of course i would have still went with both surgeries. but if i wasn’t in Canada, i’d be dirt poor right now.

and when i was in the Children’s Hospital, i look around and see all the unfortunate children who were in difficult conditions receiving the best care they can possible get. i come from the Philippines so i have seen people who are too poor to even get a consultation. there is big government fund for public health in the Philippines but since 60% of the population are poor, the hospitals and public health clinics are packed with people who line up for hours just to see a doctor. and since doctors don’t get paid as well in that system, most of the doctors are young and inexperienced who has to go through the mandatory 2-year service through public hospitals before they can start practicing in private hospitals and make most of their money. so while the poor do get some care, its not equal care, and a lot would just get worse and die in their conditions, which would have been treatable had money not been an issue.

so i fully believe public health is very, very Catholic. we should do what we can as a society to help everyone enjoy their lives to the fullest. if anyone’s house burns, you call 911 and the fire truck arrives, regardless if you have a mansion or a one bedroom run-down apartment. if there’s a crime, the police arrive. if there’s someone hurt or seriously ill, the ambulance arrive. but why should public funding stop when the ambulance drops you off in the hospital? it just doesn’t make sense

My honest opinion is that Christians and Catholics in general usually associate themselves with the Republican party due to their stance on abortion and some other moral issues. So, when you are republican you are probably going to go along with what they say, and that includes hating socialized health care.

LOL, The republican party has these Christians wrapped around their finger…they say they are anti abortion but what have they done about it? Bush was president for 8 years and what happened to the legalization of abortion during that time…oh yeah, absolutely nothing, because these republicans just say this stuff to get votes and don’t really mean it.

 

[choy]

My honest opinion is that Christians and Catholics in general usually associate themselves with the Republican party due to their stance on abortion and some other moral issues. So, when you are republican you are probably going to go along with what they say, and that includes hating socialized health care.

LOL, The republican party has these Christians wrapped around their finger…they say they are anti abortion but what have they done about it? Bush was president for 8 years and what happened to the legalization of abortion during that time…oh yeah, absolutely nothing, because these republicans just say this stuff to get votes and don’t really mean it.

i somewhat agree with this. just because the public healthcare is initiated by the democrats, instantly all the conservatives hate it

i know that the abortion part is a big issue. but why can’t they just say scrap the abortion part and have the rest of the healthcare bill pass? from what i’m getting, people just want to scrap the entire bill

 

[Biggie]

Christianity is not a compact with mediocrity and failure. Socialization appeals to Christian values when a justification of the rigors it imposes on peoples is needed, and denies Christian values at the core of its implementation. Christian sentimentality continues to fuel socialization, and continues to support it as it denies in its essentials real Christian values.

Under Obamacare, the injustice of the currently uninsured will be replaced (to some extent although not all will be insured in the end) with the injustice of rationing, of a reduced standard of care, of less specialization and development. As in all socialized systems, the truly innovative and cutting edge treatments will be reserved for the wealthy, while mediocrity will prevail throughout under the inability of socialization to provide motivation. The one end that will be served is centralized planning, which is what always feeds socialism and is the true motive for it.

 

[elts1956]

My honest opinion is that Christians and Catholics in general usually associate themselves with the Republican party due to their stance on abortion and some other moral issues. So, when you are republican you are probably going to go along with what they say, and that includes hating socialized health care.

LOL, The republican party has these Christians wrapped around their finger…they say they are anti abortion but what have they done about it? Bush was president for 8 years and what happened to the legalization of abortion during that time…oh yeah, absolutely nothing, because these republicans just say this stuff to get votes and don’t really mean it.

Please give me credit for being a somewhat independent thinker. If I lived in a State that allowed one to vote in the Primaries as an Independent, I would do so. Unfortunately, I don’t live in one.

Neither party has me wrapped around it’s little finger and I think more and more US Citizens are becoming like minded. The Health Care bill is taking away more than it is giving. Mainly it is taking away our independence and this administration is giving strong signs of taking away freedom of speech. Why is it only one Party, the left, is allowed to say what it will without being lambasted for being “unchristian”. Why is this adminsitration encouraging the defamation of Independent groups such as the Tea Party, calling members of this group terrorists and agitators. I hope this movement keeps up its peaceful demonstrations right through both parties. It is time we as citizens stood up and said no more to both.

This administration is stealng from its citizens who work very hard, in the majority of cases ,to support their families. And now we must support everyone, whether they choose to work for those privileges, or not?

This is a very complex situtation, it should involve the will of the American people who have shown in various poles they DO NOT WANT THIS TAKE OVER by the government. Does our Health Care need revision? Yes, very much, but not through forcing this fiasco on unwilling participants. Has the government become our religion, our faith? What has happended to separation of Church and State that the lefters whine about? Charity is the responsibility of individuals giving of themselves and Churches supporting them. I don’t think this Health Care is what Christ had in mind when he said “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.” I don’t think “forced” charity will earn anyone an upper tier in Heaven.

 

[elts1956]

My honest opinion is that Christians and Catholics in general usually associate themselves with the Republican party due to their stance on abortion and some other moral issues. So, when you are republican you are probably going to go along with what they say, and that includes hating socialized health care.

LOL, The republican party has these Christians wrapped around their finger…they say they are anti abortion but what have they done about it? Bush was president for 8 years and what happened to the legalization of abortion during that time…oh yeah, absolutely nothing, because these republicans just say this stuff to get votes and don’t really mean it.

Christianity is not a compact with mediocrity and failure. Socialization appeals to Christian values when a justification of the rigors it imposes on peoples is needed, and denies Christian values at the core of its implementation. Christian sentimentality continues to fuel socialization, and continues to support it as it denies in its essentials real Christian values. You have that right.

Under Obamacare, the injustice of the currently uninsured will be replaced (to some extent although not all will be insured in the end) with the injustice of rationing, of a reduced standard of care, of less specialization and development. As in all socialized systems, the truly innovative and cutting edge treatments will be reserved for the wealthy, while mediocrity will prevail throughout under the inability of socialization to provide motivation. The one end that will be served is centralized planning, which is what always feeds socialism and is the true motive for it.

 

[lutherlic]

Christianity is not a compact with mediocrity and failure. Socialization appeals to Christian values when a justification of the rigors it imposes on peoples is needed, and denies Christian values at the core of its implementation. Christian sentimentality continues to fuel socialization, and continues to support it as it denies in its essentials real Christian values.

Under Obamacare, the injustice of the currently uninsured will be replaced (to some extent although not all will be insured in the end) with the injustice of rationing, of a reduced standard of care, of less specialization and development. As in all socialized systems, the truly innovative and cutting edge treatments will be reserved for the wealthy, while mediocrity will prevail throughout under the inability of socialization to provide motivation. The one end that will be served is centralized planning, which is what always feeds socialism and is the true motive for it.

Excellent comment!

 

[timcfc]

Im from the UK so as you know,we have socialised medicine,that is something the most people in the UK agree on.None of our political parties could come out during this general election and say Anti-NHS things,it would be political suicide.
I have noticed that there is a lot of division on here about socialised medicine but if your arguments are consistant and you are against socialised medicine then you should be against ALL government run programs. You are essentially against all things the government does for all,scrap the police and fire departments. You’d instead have to hire private security and fire protection. No more road construction. Private, for-profit toll roads if some construction company decides to build them. No FAA. No public schools. No military. No Medicare, Medicaid or Social Security.
Can i ask if there have been any polls taken on what Catholics in the US think of this new law?

 

[Biggie]

Im from the UK so as you know,we have socialised medicine,that is something the most people in the UK agree on.None of our political parties could come out during this general election and say Anti-NHS things,it would be political suicide.
I have noticed that there is a lot of division on here about socialised medicine but if your arguments are consistant and you are against socialised medicine then you should be against ALL government run programs. You are essentially against all things the government does for all,scrap the police and fire departments. You’d instead have to hire private security and fire protection. No more road construction. Private, for-profit toll roads if some construction company decides to build them. No FAA. No public schools. No military. No Medicare, Medicaid or Social Security.
Can i ask if there have been any polls taken on what Catholics in the US think of this new law?

No, your premise does not follow. To recognize the need to limit the role of government is not tantamount to denying the need for government. The issue is the proper role of government, recognizing that as government grows, individual liberties wane.

The fact that to advocate an end to the NHS in the UK would be political suicide is only to prove that government largess is self perpetuating. It is exactly for this reason socialization has strong political appeal - it brings with it a never ending, deep well of dependents who serve as a solid voting block, until voting no longer matters.

After all, a society whose people forget how to do for themselves will one day find thinking too laborious as well and will see the obvious advantage in having someone else think for them.

 

[markbrumbaugh]

i still don’t get why Americans are so afraid of socialized medicine

in the last 2 weeks, my son was born via c-section, then a few days later was diagnosed with intestinal malrotation and was immediately operated on and spent the next 9 days in the hospital

guess how much i spent? roughly $100. yes, the surgery, doctor’s fee, medicine, even the diapers were free. but Canadian hospitals have ridiculously expensive parking lots

i don’t see why that should be anti-Catholic. our baby was breached and it would have been a difficult birth if not for c-section, would have been expensive if we were to pay for it.

plus, intestinal malrotation means there’s a blockage in the instestines, which means he couldn’t take in any food. imagine, if i just paid for the c-section, would i be able to afford the corrective surgery that would mean my son can start eating?

of course i would have still went with both surgeries. but if i wasn’t in Canada, i’d be dirt poor right now.

and when i was in the Children’s Hospital, i look around and see all the unfortunate children who were in difficult conditions receiving the best care they can possible get. i come from the Philippines so i have seen people who are too poor to even get a consultation. there is big government fund for public health in the Philippines but since 60% of the population are poor, the hospitals and public health clinics are packed with people who line up for hours just to see a doctor. and since doctors don’t get paid as well in that system, most of the doctors are young and inexperienced who has to go through the mandatory 2-year service through public hospitals before they can start practicing in private hospitals and make most of their money. so while the poor do get some care, its not equal care, and a lot would just get worse and die in their conditions, which would have been treatable had money not been an issue.

so i fully believe public health is very, very Catholic. we should do what we can as a society to help everyone enjoy their lives to the fullest. if anyone’s house burns, you call 911 and the fire truck arrives, regardless if you have a mansion or a one bedroom run-down apartment. if there’s a crime, the police arrive. if there’s someone hurt or seriously ill, the ambulance arrive. but why should public funding stop when the ambulance drops you off in the hospital? it just doesn’t make sense

Just because you appreciated that your decision to have a child didn’t cost you much, doesn’t mean that it was good. Your diapers were not free. Somebody had their property taken away from them by threat of force, so they could be free for you.
I wouldn’t have minded buying you some diapers, but I despise the thought of any government deciding that I HAVE to do it.

 

[markbrumbaugh]

Im from the UK so as you know,we have socialised medicine,that is something the most people in the UK agree on.None of our political parties could come out during this general election and say Anti-NHS things,it would be political suicide.
I have noticed that there is a lot of division on here about socialised medicine but if your arguments are consistant and you are against socialised medicine then you should be against ALL government run programs. You are essentially against all things the government does for all,scrap the police and fire departments. You’d instead have to hire private security and fire protection. No more road construction. Private, for-profit toll roads if some construction company decides to build them. No FAA. No public schools. No military. No Medicare, Medicaid or Social Security.
Can i ask if there have been any polls taken on what Catholics in the US think of this new law?

Learn about subsidarity. It is a Catholic concept and an important one.

I have no problem with City fire departments, or even volunteer ones. Nor local police departments, Nor national military, nor city roads, county roads, nor toll roads, nor interstate highway systems. I would have a huge problem with a national police force or fire department and obviously a city couldn’t build an interstate highway.

Do it at the most local level practical, and if possible, do it with private enterprise, not taxes.