Public responses during the Latin Mass

[ethelzguy]

And you attend the NO, I bet.

Yes, I do, because that’s what Mass is said at my parish. If the Padre said Mass in Latin this Sunday, well then, I’ll shake off the cobwebs and go at it…but I won’t be saying a rosary with the Mass as background noise.

“Step right up, it’s a two-fer Sunday”

 

[KathleenElsie]

1962 . . 8:00 a.m. Mass . . . a group of elderly women were there daily, diligently, quietly and faithfully praying their Rosaries throughout the Mass. Never responded, never paid much attention to those around them, never received Communion.

What people may not have known is that these same faithful women had prayed the Mass at 6:30 a.m., but remained in the Church, in the presence of God, for several hours afterwards to pray for the intentions of their friends, their families, their parish, their church, their nation, their world.

Would that we had them there today.

Sometimes what we “see” is not really what we are seeing.

Would that we had them there today. I second this.

 

[laudamus_te]

So when you are at mass, follow the Mass. Dont pray the rosary at that time. Do it when and where you can do it fruitfully, not just to get it in as a painful necessity. It’s a matter of the right place and right time for everything.

You see, some people just don’t seem to understand that one can fruitfully pray the Rosary during a TLM! It is not a devotion which takes your focus off the Mass, and if it is then it shouldn’t be done, obviously. The same goes if you are just trying to “get it in as a painful necessity.” If it’s something you can’t do, then don’t do it. To suggest that one cannot follow the Mass without reading along is ludicrous. The Mass is a prayer. It can involve deep, spiritual meditation. A meditation on the Sorrowful mysteries is perfectly in sync with the Traditional Latin Mass.

But if you don’t want to pray the Rosary during a TLM, I’m not going to tell you that you should, so I’d appreciate it if you didn’t tell me that I shouldn’t.

ethelzguy:

“Step right up, it’s a two-fer Sunday”

I’d also appreciate it if you’d stop with the put-downs. It is possible to disagree with someone without ridicule.

 

[eelpis]

Well, we have multiple issues.

First we have those who say that we DID used to do both, and others who deny such.

Once we get past that, we get into the “why’s” of both being done.

I personally knew MANY people over the years who freely admitted that they said the rosary during the old Latin Mass BECAUSE they did not understand the Latin. Oh, they knew the rote memory responses…but it became a “happy hour” of sorts, two for the price of one. They could fulfill their “Sunday Obligation” and say a rosary at the same time.

I personally don’t care what others DO…it’s when they claim that it’s “so much better” than those of us who attend Mass in the vernacular, and UNDERSTAND the words and what they mean.

I personally have NEVER said a rosary while attending Mass. I feel like it’s “cheating”. Either I’m totally into the Mass, or I’m totally into my rosary. You can’t kid God.

Dear ethelzguy,

If you would be able to UNDERSTAND what really happens at mass you would die, of love. We will never understand it, not even in heaven. This according to St John Vianney.

But I bet that many of the old ladies with their rosaries understood it more than most of us do.

 

[ethelzguy]

It is possible to disagree with someone without ridicule.

Who is ridiculing ? I’m just having a lighter moment. Some people get so wound up here, that they forget to breathe sometimes.

 

[ethelzguy]

But I bet that many of the old ladies with their rosaries understood it more than most of us do.

You mean like my Mother, my Aunt Theresa, Aunt Helen, Aunt Alice, Aunt Ann, Great-Aunts Rose and Bertha…who all prayed their rosaries during Latin Mass?

You mean like when, as a child, I would ask “What are they saying?” and I would get scolded for interrupting their rosary praying and get handed one?

You mean like, when after Mass I would persist in my question, and get told “It’s all in Latin, so we say our rosaries”?

OK, I think I understand now.

 

[laudamus_te]

You mean like my Mother, my Aunt Theresa, Aunt Helen, Aunt Alice, Aunt Ann, Great-Aunts Rose and Bertha…who all prayed their rosaries during Latin Mass?

You mean like when, as a child, I would ask “What are they saying?” and I would get scolded for interrupting their rosary praying and get handed one?

You mean like, when after Mass I would persist in my question, and get told “It’s all in Latin, so we say our rosaries”?

OK, I think I understand now.

So, because it was that way in your family, so it is in the whole Church. Ok, I think I understand now.

 

[ethelzguy]

So, because it was that way in your family, so it is in the whole Church. Ok, I think I understand now.

I could give you a hundred or a thousand similar examples, and you would/could use the same logic to support your position.

Refuse to accept reality if you must. Cling to a romanticized memory of the old Latin Mass if you must. That doesn’t change reality.

 

[laudamus_te]

I could give you a hundred or a thousand similar examples, and you would/could use the same logic to support your position.

Refuse to accept reality if you must. Cling to a romanticized memory of the old Latin Mass if you must. That doesn’t change reality.

I do not cling to a romanticized memory of the old Latin Mass! I do have my own life experiences, you know. Those are my reality. If they are not yours, I believe you and I’m sorry for you.

 

[ethelzguy]

I do not cling to a romanticized memory of the old Latin Mass! I do have my own life experiences, you know. Those are my reality. If they are not yours, I believe you and I’m sorry for you.

You still haven’t explained how the human mind can focus fully on two things at any given moment.

Can you read a book and watch TV at the same time, giving full attention to both at the same instant?

You can argue with me all you like, but you can’t kid God. The Church doesn’t offer “two-fer’s” on the menu. You’re paying full attention to Mass, or you’re diverging by saying your rosary. One or the other.

 

[laudamus_te]

You still haven’t explained how the human mind can focus fully on two things at any given moment.

Can you read a book and watch TV at the same time, giving full attention to both at the same instant?

You can argue with me all you like, but you can’t kid God. The Church doesn’t offer “two-fer’s” on the menu. You’re paying full attention to Mass, or you’re diverging by saying your rosary. One or the other.

Please try and argue without the animosity and the false humor! I don’t know if there’s any point in trying to explain this to someone who doesn’t even attend the TLM, but I’ll try.

I think what is confusing you about the Rosary during Mass is your obsession with the idea of doing 2 things at one time. The meditation of the Sorrowful Mysteries, and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (specifically, the TLM) are one and the same thing in content. With both, you are commemorating His Passion. This really does not apply, IMO, to the NOM.

I posted an exerpt on this method of praying the Mass with fruitfulness by a Doctor of Theology. Apparently that is not good enough for you to accept, but again you are looking through the lens of the NOM experience. If the day ever comes when you are a regular at the TLM, we may be able to discuss this with more understanding.

 

[ethelzguy]

I don’t know if there’s any point in trying to explain this to someone who doesn’t even attend the TLM, but I’ll try… If the day ever comes when you are a regular at the TLM, we may be able to discuss this with more understanding.

I’ve attended over 3000 Latin Masses in my lifetime. I’m hardly a Latin Mass neophyte.

You don’t like my humor, and I don’t particularly care for your condescending attitude toward me either.

If you are totally immersed in the Sacrifice of the Mass you can’t engage in perhipheral activity without losing full focus on the Mass.

 

[laudamus_te]

I’ve attended over 3000 Latin Masses in my lifetime. I’m hardly a Latin Mass neophyte.

You don’t like my humor, and I don’t particularly care for your condescending attitude toward me either.

If you are totally immersed in the Sacrifice of the Mass you can’t engage in perhipheral activity without losing full focus on the Mass.

Forgive me, I was not being condescending. I was speaking from the little knowledge that I have of you, and what you have told me - that you attend the NOM.

Apparently what I have said in explanation makes no sense to you whatsoever, so we will leave it at that.

 

[Robster7]

Ethelzguy, laudamus te, et al.,

Please cease sniping at each other in your zeal to convert the other to your view. It’s not a good example.

Re praying rosary during mass, I found the following document by Pope Paul VI re the cult of Mary. Below is the link to complete document, title, and excerpted paragraph 48 re praying rosary during Mass; note boldface sentence. Pax vobiscum.

papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6marial.htm

APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION FOR THE RIGHT ORDERING AND DEVELOPMENT OF DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY
MARIALIS CULTUS
OF HIS HOLINESS PAUL VI, FEBRUARY 2, 1974

1. Finally, as a result of modern reflection the relationships between the liturgy and the Rosary have been more clearly understood. On the one hand it has been emphasized that the Rosary is, as it were, a branch sprung from the ancient trunk of the Christian liturgy, the Psalter of the Blessed Virgin, whereby the humble were associated in the Church’s hymn of praise and universal intercession. On the other hand it has been noted that this development occurred at a time – the last period of the Middle Ages – when the liturgical spirit was in decline and the faithful were turning from the liturgy towards a devotion to Christ’s humanity and to the Blessed Virgin Mary, a devotion favoring a certain external sentiment of piety. Not many years ago some people began to express the desire to see the Rosary included among the rites of the liturgy, while other people, anxious to avoid repetition of former pastoral mistakes, unjustifiably disregarded the Rosary. Today the problem can easily be solved in the light of the principles of the Constitution Sacrosanctum concilium. Liturgical celebrations and the pious practice of the Rosary must be neither set in opposition to one another nor considered as being identical.[114] The more an expression of prayer preserves its own true nature and individual characteristics the more fruitful it becomes. Once the pre-eminent value of liturgical rites has been reaffirmed it will not be difficult to appreciate the fact that the Rosary is a practice of piety which easily harmonizes with the liturgy. In fact, like the liturgy, it is of a community nature, draws its inspiration from Sacred Scripture and is oriented towards the mystery of Christ. The commemoration in the liturgy and the contemplative remembrance proper to the Rosary, although existing on essentially different planes of reality, have as their object the same salvific events wrought by Christ. The former presents anew, under the veil of signs and operative in a hidden way, the great mysteries of our Redemption. The latter, by means of devout contemplation, recalls these same mysteries to the mind of the person praying and stimulates the will to draw from them the norms of living. Once this substantial difference has been established, it is not difficult to understand that the Rosary is an exercise of piety that draws its motivating force from the liturgy and leads naturally back to it, if practiced in conformity with its original inspiration. It does not, however, become part of the liturgy. In fact, meditation on the mysteries of the Rosary, by familiarizing the hearts and minds of the faithful with the mysteries of Christ, can be an excellent preparation for the celebration of those same mysteries in the liturgical action and can also become a continuing echo thereof. However, it is a mistake to recite the Rosary during the celebration of the liturgy, though unfortunately this practice still persists here and there.

 

[ethelzguy]

LT and I have agreed to disagree and leave it at that.

 

[Robster7]

Gloria in Excelsis Deo!

Better than settling via a duel with pistols at 100 paces!

 

[laudamus_te]

Ethelzguy, laudamus te, et al.,

Please cease sniping at each other in your zeal to convert the other to your view. It’s not a good example.

Re praying rosary during mass, I found the following document by Pope Paul VI re the cult of Mary. Below is the link to complete document, title, and excerpted paragraph 48 re praying rosary during Mass; note boldface sentence. Pax vobiscum.

papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6marial.htm

APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION FOR THE RIGHT ORDERING AND DEVELOPMENT OF DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY
MARIALIS CULTUS
OF HIS HOLINESS PAUL VI, FEBRUARY 2, 1974

1. Finally, as a result of modern reflection the relationships between the liturgy and the Rosary have been more clearly understood. On the one hand it has been emphasized that the Rosary is, as it were, a branch sprung from the ancient trunk of the Christian liturgy, the Psalter of the Blessed Virgin, whereby the humble were associated in the Church’s hymn of praise and universal intercession. On the other hand it has been noted that this development occurred at a time – the last period of the Middle Ages – when the liturgical spirit was in decline and the faithful were turning from the liturgy towards a devotion to Christ’s humanity and to the Blessed Virgin Mary, a devotion favoring a certain external sentiment of piety. Not many years ago some people began to express the desire to see the Rosary included among the rites of the liturgy, while other people, anxious to avoid repetition of former pastoral mistakes, unjustifiably disregarded the Rosary. Today the problem can easily be solved in the light of the principles of the Constitution Sacrosanctum concilium. Liturgical celebrations and the pious practice of the Rosary must be neither set in opposition to one another nor considered as being identical.[114] The more an expression of prayer preserves its own true nature and individual characteristics the more fruitful it becomes. Once the pre-eminent value of liturgical rites has been reaffirmed it will not be difficult to appreciate the fact that the Rosary is a practice of piety which easily harmonizes with the liturgy. In fact, like the liturgy, it is of a community nature, draws its inspiration from Sacred Scripture and is oriented towards the mystery of Christ. The commemoration in the liturgy and the contemplative remembrance proper to the Rosary, although existing on essentially different planes of reality, have as their object the same salvific events wrought by Christ. The former presents anew, under the veil of signs and operative in a hidden way, the great mysteries of our Redemption. The latter, by means of devout contemplation, recalls these same mysteries to the mind of the person praying and stimulates the will to draw from them the norms of living. Once this substantial difference has been established, it is not difficult to understand that the Rosary is an exercise of piety that draws its motivating force from the liturgy and leads naturally back to it, if practiced in conformity with its original inspiration. It does not, however, become part of the liturgy. In fact, meditation on the mysteries of the Rosary, by familiarizing the hearts and minds of the faithful with the mysteries of Christ, can be an excellent preparation for the celebration of those same mysteries in the liturgical action and can also become a continuing echo thereof. However, it is a mistake to recite the Rosary during the celebration of the liturgy, though unfortunately this practice still persists here and there.

Hi Robster,

I’m aware of this exhortation from Paul VI, but it does not apply to what I have been saying. I have tried to make it clear, but apparently it hasn’t been understood that I am talking about the TLM, not the NOM, regarding the value of the Rosary during Mass.

 

[LJN21]

Hi Robster,

I’m aware of this exhortation from Paul VI, but it does not apply to what I have been saying. I have tried to make it clear, but apparently it hasn’t been understood that I am talking about the TLM, not the NOM, regarding the value of the Rosary during Mass.

I understand what your saying about saying the rosary during the Latin Mass, however I’m unsure of how the exhortation doesn’t apply to both Masses.

 

[laudamus_te]

I understand what your saying about saying the rosary during the Latin Mass, however I’m unsure of how the exhortation doesn’t apply to both Masses.

The exhortation was written in 1974, when the NOM was the mass of the Church. The Traditional Latin Mass had been falsely suppressed by that time.

 

[LJN21]

The exhortation was written in 1974, when the NOM was the mass of the Church. The Traditional Latin Mass had been falsely suppressed by that time.

I understand that, its also my understanding that praying the rosary regardless of what your meditating on and how it ties in to the mass is a far inferior form of participation. The highest form, being, the actual saying the prayers of the mass. I guess, I don’t understand how a private devotion could remotely be equal too the prayers the Church has given us for the Mass, specially the Latin Mass.