Public Restrooms in the USA and Transgenderism and Ethical Concerns

[rae317]

Agreed.

.

Do you feel that trans men who have not had genital surgery should use the women’s room?

 

[SMGS127]

Do you feel that trans men who have not had genital surgery should use the women’s room?

Well…this would be a rule quite easy to break if you’re good at passing. But then it wouldn’t matter as much because you wouldn’t make anyone feel uncomfortable either. I also added that I felt unisex/family restrooms should exist everywhere .

 

[mommamaree]

Agreed.

How do you feel about post-op trans women? Personally, I feel like restrooms (and certainly locker rooms) should be divided by genitalia, regardless of what gender we actually view a person to be, and unisex/family bathrooms available for those uncomfortable with this situation. Then there would be no potential for abuse and there also wouldn’t be the risk of a trans woman getting raped by being forced to use the men’s room. That’s just my opinion though, and I’d be interested to see yours on the issue.

While I haven’t had much time to consider this possible solution, my gut instinct is that this would be an acceptable compromise. I still would want to supervise my daughter’s bathroom visits, however. I would need more time to reflect on this before giving a firm opinion. Anyhow, my point in starting the thread was to explore the issue, and not presume to make a decision on a large cultural issue.

 

[rae317]

Well…this would be a rule quite easy to break if you’re good at passing. But then it wouldn’t matter as much because you wouldn’t make anyone feel uncomfortable either. I also added that I felt unisex/family restrooms should exist everywhere .

I read your agreement to to mean that pre-op trans women should not use the womens room, that’s an opinion you agreed with. I am curious if you think the same should be true for trans men, that they should use the women’s room and not the men’s room? Having unisex bathrooms available everywhere is not practical.

It is unfair to ask 50% of the population to have to accommodate the emotional needs of a few individuals with a mental disorder (gender identity disorder) when that accommodation will also enable males who wish to harass women.

Trans women will use the women’s room. They have been for a long time, and it has not been a disaster for other women.

Generally it is the trans women who are harassed, threatened, on occasion physically attacked and that have the police called on them when they have not done anything to anyone. The laws that are the base of your OP are meant to give them some protection from those negative and unwarranted actions (not what ifs, this happens frequently to them). However those laws do not protect men, or anyone else including trans-people,from unlawful conduct. If a man is in the bathroom call the police, If someone is acting suspicious call the police, if they are harassing or attacking you call the police.

But a trans woman who is making a reasonable effort to present as female and is not doing anything to you should be left alone.

You may have a moral opinion about them and what they have done with their lives, and you don’t need to invite them over for dinner, but they are nonetheless a part of society, they are not going away, and they don’t want to be treated like freaks and having the police called on them for no reason.

I’m not threatening you, harassing you, bullying you, or making you change your beliefs. But I am a member of this society to and should have the same rights to use the womens room that you do, even if you discover I am trans.

The whole thing about pre-op, most trans women are pre-op because they can’t afford it or they are otherwise prevented from surgery. And what would you do, ask to see?

As for all women accommodating me, well the great majority don’t have a problem with it. I had one woman out of I don’t know how many females I know, that has had a problem with me using the women’s room. This includes the women at church. This includes spiritual retreats with 50 other women sharing small cabins with bunk beds and very congested bathroom and shower area. And most of those women know my history. If they felt I was putting them out or in anyway threatening them I am sure I would not be invited to those retreats anymore.

 

[pnewton]

Care to show the cases where people have been born biologically mixed between a human and a petunia? I can show you cases where people were born biologically mixed between male and female though.

The problem is not, and never has been intersexed people. To give another example, how about the Steve Martin movie where he claimed that he was born a poor black man. Would you think a white person should be treated as black for the purposes of affirmative action quotas because they felt they were black? What if they felt they were a Native American on the inside, should the Native American nations be forced to grant rights and access due them to anyone who claims to be “oriented” to being Native American?

If I believe I am the President of the United States, I mean really do believe that, should I have the legal right to access to Air Force One or psychiatric treatment? Sanity is the right response to reality.

 

[pnewton]

Well…this would be a rule quite easy to break if you’re good at passing. But then it wouldn’t matter as much because you wouldn’t make anyone feel uncomfortable either. I also added that I felt unisex/family restrooms should exist everywhere .

Even in areas where water is in shortage? Men’s restrooms are different. They use less water. Unisex restrooms would increase water usage and be more expensive. And for what? It has already been said many times that these people who consider themselves transgender are rare. Why not simply tell them to use the restroom equipped for their genitalia? No one has yet given an answer as to why a woman can’t use a woman’s or a man the men’s regardless of where their brain is.

 

[Cherry5]

I read your agreement to to mean that pre-op trans women should not use the womens room, that’s an opinion you agreed with. I am curious if you think the same should be true for trans men, that they should use the women’s room and not the men’s room? Having unisex bathrooms available everywhere is not practical.

Trans women will use the women’s room. They have been for a long time, and it has not been a disaster for other women.

Generally it is the trans women who are harassed, threatened, on occasion physically attacked and that have the police called on them when they have not done anything to anyone. The laws that are the base of your OP are meant to give them some protection from those negative and unwarranted actions (not what ifs, this happens frequently to them). However those laws do not protect men, or anyone else including trans-people,from unlawful conduct. If a man is in the bathroom call the police, If someone is acting suspicious call the police, if they are harassing or attacking you call the police.

But a trans woman who is making a reasonable effort to present as female and is not doing anything to you should be left alone.

You may have a moral opinion about them and what they have done with their lives, and you don’t need to invite them over for dinner, but they are nonetheless a part of society, they are not going away, and they don’t want to be treated like freaks and having the police called on them for no reason.

I’m not threatening you, harassing you, bullying you, or making you change your beliefs. But I am a member of this society to and should have the same rights to use the womens room that you do, even if you discover I am trans.

The whole thing about pre-op, most trans women are pre-op because they can’t afford it or they are otherwise prevented from surgery. And what would you do, ask to see?

As for all women accommodating me, well the great majority don’t have a problem with it. I had one woman out of I don’t know how many females I know, that has had a problem with me using the women’s room. This includes the women at church. This includes spiritual retreats with 50 other women sharing small cabins with bunk beds and very congested bathroom and shower area. And most of those women know my history. If they felt I was putting them out or in anyway threatening them I am sure I would not be invited to those retreats anymore.

Well said Rae, as well part of the requirement for transition is that the individual needs to live one year preop immersed as a woman.
Transgender women have been using women’s washrooms in Canada for years without any incident. I am sure they have been doing so in the US as well.

 

[pnewton]

I would like to clarify that I understand why a restaurant, store or bar may want to voluntarily make the adaptations of unisex, or a third restroom, to attract a few more customers in a tough economy. However, it should be up to the store as to whether such a small minority is worth the expenditure. Many places have voluntarily added a “Family” restroom, where a mom can take a son, or a father his daughter. This could be expanded to a single unisex unit for one person, without affecting everyone else.

The key is, this should never be a regulated issue. This is not a minority issue. This is not a handicap issue. If it were, I note that only reasonable accommodations are required for handicapped people. A door on a stall in the correct gender restroom would meet the requirement for a transgender person. If a man is embarrassed in the Men’s, close the door.

 

[pnewton]

If I would be put in jail in Canada for reporting a male in the ladies room, then I will make sure never to go there. Not that I ever had any desire to go there anyway.

I guess nothing can be criticized in Canada but morals and Americans.

 

[Cricket2]

This NOT political, if you did understand what transgender people go through you would not make this statement.

It is not 99.9% of society that is uncomfortable with this, there are a few that are uncomfortable right now but over time and with some education will learn to be more accepting. I see no difference as to the process of accepting untouchables in India or the blacks in N America.

Transgendered individuals have a very difficult matter to deal with. It is no laughing matter, and they should not be so despised as they seem to be.

I do believe in gender specific public restrooms and having unisex restrooms available for those that may decide they should use those. I don’t want to find someone in a woman’s restroom that looks to be all man, dressed like a woman. I would leave, and more than likely report that there appears to be a man in the women’s restroom.

I think it is a very fine line or sense of discernment for all to be able to determine if the person they find in the restroom they are about to use is a Predator or not. And that includes males, females and transgendered folks. My sister walked into a public restroom years ago, and there found three young women. She immediately knew she was in trouble.

The girls were waiting there to mug someone, anyone. Little did they know how physically strong my sister was when she was in her 20’s. Lets just say the would be robbers all met the floor at about the same time. No robbery occurred. This is what I mean by discerning the presence of a Predator. Unfortunately they are out there and we all need to use some commons sense and attentiveness in this regard.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

. Why not simply tell them to use the restroom equipped for their genitalia? No one has yet given an answer as to why a woman can’t use a woman’s or a man the men’s regardless of where their brain is.

How would you know which genitalia some one really has without violating their privacy? Post op and pre op may net always be obvious at first glance.

Pardon my mistakes. Sent from my mobile device.

 

[pnewton]

How would you know which genitalia some one really has without violating their privacy? Post op and pre op may net always be obvious at first glance.

Pardon my mistakes. Sent from my mobile device.

If gender can not be distinguished, then there is no problem. Yet here we are dealing with this issue in America. My better question is why a man can not use the men’s and a woman the women’s. No one has even given a crummy reason yet, much less a good reason. Are all transgender ignorant and clueless as to what gender is? If not, why can the not simply use the correct facility? Then they can go about feeling however they want without offense to others.

 

[SMGS127]

The problem is not, and never has been intersexed people. To give another example, how about the Steve Martin movie where he claimed that he was born a poor black man. Would you think a white person should be treated as black for the purposes of affirmative action quotas because they felt they were black? What if they felt they were a Native American on the inside, should the Native American nations be forced to grant rights and access due them to anyone who claims to be “oriented” to being Native American?

If I believe I am the President of the United States, I mean really do believe that, should I have the legal right to access to Air Force One or psychiatric treatment? Sanity is the right response to reality.

You’re missing my point. I am not even claiming that transgender people are intersex, but rather that it has been already proven that abnormalities can occur that alter the biological gender of one whose spiritual body is not of that gender in the form of intersex. This has not been proven in any other example you give. One cannot, through original sin, be granted Native American birth skin without genetic origin. One cannot, through original sin, become President at birth. Do you see what I am arguing?

 

[Corki]

It is not 99.9% of society that is uncomfortable with this, there are a few that are uncomfortable right now but over time and with some education will learn to be more accepting.

Confused here. If you are talking about the few people who are intersexed and truly have no binary gender, then, yes, it’s true that time and education will go a long way in helping people understand the condition.

But if you are talking about the majority of transexuals, those who are biologically either male or female but who choose to dress/live and even surgically alter themselves to be like the opposite gender, then very few people are comfortable with this. In my lifetime, I have never met anyone outside of the LGBT activist community who was not uncomfortable with these people. They may put up with them or even acquiesce to laws that ignore the disorder but they aren’t comfortable with them. 99.9% may be a little high but the number is probably in the high 90s.

 

[pnewton]

You’re missing my point. I am not even claiming that transgender people are intersex, but rather that it has been already proven that abnormalities can occur that alter the biological gender of one whose spiritual body is not of that gender in the form of intersex.

Your definition of “proven” is also not mine. Evidence is not proof. Furthermore, the interpretation of evidence that is collected to prove a point is definitely not proof. Let me define the term:

…denoting or relating to a person whose self-identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender.

Note the key: self- identity. This is the individual opting to identify with a gender he or she is not. This is a psychological deviation, not a biological alteration.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

My better question is why a man can not use the men’s and a woman the women’s. No one has even given a crummy reason yet, much less a good reason.

I don’t think any one is disagreeing with this. Rather it seems the attitudes range from agreement to apathy.

Are all transgender ignorant and clueless as to what gender is?

Nope. They know what it is, but they are asking to go by gender identity, not gender.

If not, why can the not simply use the correct facility? Then they can go about feeling however they want without offense to others.

I think they are trying not to break out of their gender identity.

 

[pnewton]

Nope. They know what it is, but they are asking to go by gender identity, not gender.

I think they are trying not to break out of their gender identity.

Thanks. Actually, these are good answers, as in valid and accurate. I do not think their desire to self-identify their choice of gender is a reason to be an imposition on others, but at least the issue is defined very well. So, if we allow a man to go where women are vulnerable because that man wishes to identify as a woman, would we let a man go where children or vulnerable because he wanted to identify himself as a child? Can the pedophile haunt the playground marked for those under twelve based on a self-identity?

If we allow gender identity, why not age and race identity (and species identity, though some think that analogy improper)?

This is the problem I see with governmental mandates to such a subjective area.

 

[SMGS127]

Your definition of “proven” is also not mine. Evidence is not proof. Furthermore, the interpretation of evidence that is collected to prove a point is definitely not proof. Let me define the term:

…denoting or relating to a person whose self-identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender.

Note the key: self- identity. This is the individual opting to identify with a gender he or she is not. This is a psychological deviation, not a biological alteration.

Thanks. Actually, these are good answers, as in valid and accurate. I do not think their desire to self-identify their choice of gender is a reason to be an imposition on others, but at least the issue is defined very well. So, if we allow a man to go where women are vulnerable because that man wishes to identify as a woman, would we let a man go where children or vulnerable because he wanted to identify himself as a child? Can the pedophile haunt the playground marked for those under twelve based on a self-identity?

If we allow gender identity, why not age and race identity (and species identity, though some think that analogy improper)?

This is the problem I see with governmental mandates to such a subjective area.

It is a matter of fact and not opinion that there is significant proof that hermaphroditic and intersex conditions (for example, 17-BHDD) exist. There is no proof (and never can be since it doesn’t exist) that someone is born both age 0 and age 25. There is no proof that someone can be born with both the racial qualities of their genealogy and the racial qualities incompatible with their genealogy. There is no proof that someone can be born half man, half dog (or petunia as you put it). There is no proof that someone can be born half-baby/half-President.

Transgender issues have no scientific evidence at the moment due to very shameful actions by Dr. McHugh in the 1970s to shut down all research on them at JHU, or we would know more about them to comment (whether they were intersex or not, for example). I am merely stating that we should keep an open mind on the issue. This does not mean endorsing them; it just means being open to the idea that people typically do have an extremely keen God-given knowledge of what their spiritual gender is.

Have a pleasant Sunday by the way. Prayers for your health .

 

[Cherry5]

But if you are talking about the majority of transexuals, those who are biologically either male or female but who choose to dress/live and even surgically alter themselves to be like the opposite gender, then very few people are comfortable with this. .

It seems we disagree on a fundamental point about the choice;and the willingness to accept the professional opinion on the matter, to you this may be academic, but for someone who is looking for relief, direction of professionals specialzed In this area is what one tends go by, no different than any other condition.

In my lifetime, I have never met anyone outside of the LGBT activist community who was not uncomfortable with these people. They may put up with them or even acquiesce to laws that ignore the disorder but they aren’t comfortable with them. 99.9% may be a little high but the number is probably in the high 90s.

I am not going to debate the numbers, however this is no different than many situations, think about discrimination of blacks, white supremacy. Why for that matter even Christ makes people a uncomfortable!

 

[pnewton]

It is a matter of fact and not opinion that there is significant proof that hermaphroditic and intersex conditions (for example, 17-BHDD) exist.

I am not, and never have, discussed this issue (intersex), or is this the topic here. I used examples of comparison to* transgender* claims. You say my examples are not valid because intersexed people exist. This is a classic example of strawman fallacy. I have no doubt you are aware of the differences between transgender, transsexual and intersex, as am I. Can we please stick to the topic of transgender, for the sake of simplicity as well as the integrity to this particular thread topic.

This does not mean endorsing them; it just means being open to the idea that people typically do have an extremely keen God-given knowledge of what their spiritual gender is.

God is blamed for many evil things in the past. I simply do not believe it the novelty of “spiritual gender”. If a person really did believe this, however, then he, she or it, should be willing to suffer the consequences of their religious beliefs, as must we all.

I would like to point out that almost every sin man has ever know, almost every weird doctrine ever conceived, has had someone that attached divine revelation to that knowledge. What we can say is that such a person cannot be judged (though the actions may). They may be acting in accord to their sincere beliefs. This does not mean though, that we can not do likewise and hold them to common standards of decency.