Punishment for abortion

[Rau]

Society looks at things one way, but should that mean that Catholics should just go along and not try to change things. For example, most states today accept homosexual marriage. Should the Catholic response be to just say that since that is the way that society wants it, so we should just bake their wedding cakes and rent out our halls and restaurants to celebrate these weddings? Similarly, many in society will go along with the current laws giving a woman a right to an abortion. Should Catholics try to change this? And if the law were changed to make abortion illegal, should the Catholic position be that the woman who has the abortion be punished as other criminals are, or that she be free from any punishment for some reason or another.

Like all good people, Catholics should work to lessen evil. There is not the possibility of changing the law in the immediate future to forbid abortion. In a democratic society, change can only happen in small steps, judiciously chosen.

Catholics ought to accept that abortion is an evil, a variant of murder, as is euthanasia. Catholics ought to stand firm in their belief that marriage is not the appropriate institution for other than man+woman. Catholics ought to seek to explain these positions and gradually build support for them.

 

[mikekle]

Like all good people, Catholics should work to lessen evil. There is not the possibility of changing the law in the immediate future to forbid abortion. In a democratic society, change can only happen in small steps, judiciously chosen.

Catholics ought to accept that abortion is an evil, a variant of murder, as is euthanasia. Catholics ought to stand firm in their belief that marriage is not the appropriate institution for other than man+woman. Catholics ought to seek to explain these positions and gradually build support for them.

Well, I tend to think Christians should probably do a little more than just accept these things…example, lets say you lived back around the time Hitler came to power, you saw the concentration camps and all the other evil he was doing, would it be enough to just accept this, sit back and go on with your life, or try anything you could to end this horror, save lives, etc? Sure, if you had done anything like this back then, you would have been arrested, or worse, but in time, you would be seen as a hero for what you did…same thing with abortion today imo.

 

[marymary1975]

Why would a person who accidentally kills another get a jail sentence? “Accidentally” has a broad range of culpability.

I think what Weller is implying is precisely the difficulty of punishing women that abort with jail. How do you know that it was an intentional abortion? If a child is born then forensics has no problem determining the cause of death but that does not happen with a child in the womb. Are you going to throw all women that suffer a miscarriage in jail? If abortion is illegal is not practiced neither at hospitals nor at doctor’s office so is not that you can say oh she went to the abortionist and ask for an abortion. It is done clandestinely and most of the time is extremely difficult to determined if it was an intentional abortion, a natural miscarriage, a rape, a situation of domestic violence. So that means that you either start throwing in jail innocent women (which has happened in Salvador and that has cost them a lot of international pressure which doesn’t help the pro life cause) or like it happens in other countries, it becomes so difficult to prosecute that the State just decides to not prosecute women due to abortions.

 

[JimG]

Nothing would please the pro-abortion contingent more than having pro-life groups propose severe penalties for women for abortion. It would help their cause greatly.

 

[marymary1975]

Nothing would please the pro-abortion contingent more than having pro-life groups propose severe penalties for women for abortion. It would help their cause greatly.

This is very true. That is why El Salvador has become the newest battle ground for PTO choicers as they have very severe criminal penalties for women who abort (whoever there is zero penalties for abortionists or third parties that cause/force an abortion) and they have multiple cases (in fact there are two currently at the Int. human right court) of women who were thrown in jail because of natural miscarriages. Pro choices are using all that to put the ban of abortion as an attack on human rights. Sadly this only hurts the pro life cause and gives pro choicers more ammunition.

 

[marymary1975]

Exactly! And another plus to that is the fact that if a woman ends up in a hospital with a botched abortion then there is a bigger likelihood that the woman will reveal to authorities who is the abortionist making it easier to tackle the abortionist. IG the woman doesn’t have any fear of being arrested then she will be more willing yo tell the truth and disclose who are the people performing illegal abortions.

 

[sallybutler]

Why shouldn’t the woman also be prosecuted? Wouldn’t she be conspiring to participate in a crime? If the doctor is committing murder, isn’t the mother also culpable? If I ask someone to rob a bank for me, can’t I also be convicted of committing a crime?

In many states, if a woman is pregnant, and as a result of criminal activity or even a car accident, she loses the baby, the criminal or the person that caused the accident can be charged with homicide of the baby, even if the woman lives. I believe the same can happen if the woman takes drugs during her pregnancy.

I do not understand why we want to take responsibility away from the woman. I know that sounds harsh, but I don’t see how one can do anything else.

 

[marymary1975]

Why shouldn’t the woman also be prosecuted? Wouldn’t she be conspiring to participate in a crime? If the doctor is committing murder, isn’t the mother also culpable? If I ask someone to rob a bank for me, can’t I also be convicted of committing a crime?

In many states, if a woman is pregnant, and as a result of criminal activity or even a car accident, she loses the baby, the criminal or the person that caused the accident can be charged with homicide of the baby, even if the woman lives. I believe the same can happen if the woman takes drugs during her pregnancy.

I do not understand why we want to take responsibility away from the woman. I know that sounds harsh, but I don’t see how one can do anything else.

How are you going to determine that it was an intentional abortion not a miscarriage? Going back to what Weller stated are you suggesting too that we put in jail all women who suffer miscarriages?

 

[simonmic]

What’s with all this under duress? My sister chose to have abortion.

 

[simonmic]

Because she left her orignal b/f for a while. Had already 2 kids with him…Met someone else…had trouble with him…had an abortion and now back with original b/f…and now a 3rd

childView attachment 21463

 

[pensmama87]

What’s with all this under duress? My sister chose to have abortion.

I’m very sorry for your loss.

When a girl or woman ends up pregnant unexpectedly, she can feel a lot of pressure from a variety of people to abort - the child’s father, her parents or relatives, others for whom a baby would “interrupt” their current way of going about life, or affect how they are viewed socially.

Of course, a mother can make that determination herself, too, but for the reasons described in this thread I still think it’s a horrible idea to attempt to imprison a mother for obtaining an abortion even if she did so with a completely clear head and with knowledge of what she was doing (since abortionists are very keen on getting their clients to continue, they misconstrue the biological reality of pregnancy in their so-called “counseling.”)

 

[simonmic]

I’m very sorry for your loss.

When a girl or woman ends up pregnant unexpectedly, she can feel a lot of pressure from a variety of people to abort - the child’s father, her parents or relatives, others for whom a baby would “interrupt” their current way of going about life, or affect how they are viewed socially.

Of course, a mother can make that determination herself, too, but for the reasons described in this thread I still think it’s a horrible idea to attempt to imprison a mother for obtaining an abortion even if she did so with a completely clear head and with knowledge of what she was doing (since abortionists are very keen on getting their clients to continue, they misconstrue the biological reality of pregnancy in their so-called “counseling.”)

Well if people think her sins were bad, wait until you get a load of me

People seem to ignore decisions made by all of us, right or wrong somtimes…blaming that Tiller fellow for example…I know what i did and what she did was wrong…maybe she does too,i aint asked her…My sins are not to be forgiven and i accept my fate…If she doesn’t not believe or go to church either…She does not know God and was only Baptised and notihng more shown to her really… i do not know what will become of her…I HOPE HE IS MERCIFUL,IF HE IS THERE TO HER, BUT NOT TO ME!

 

[pensmama87]

Well if people think her sins were bad, wait until you get a load of me

People seem to ignore decisions made by all of us, right or wrong somtimes…blaming that Tiller fellow for example…I know what i did and what she did was wrong…maybe she does too,i aint asked her…My sins are not to be forigen and accept my fate…If she doesn not believe or go to church either then i do not what will become of her…I HOPE HE IS MERCIFUL TO HER, BUT NOT TO ME!

No matter how bad, your sins can and will be forgiven by God if you ask Him for forgiveness.

One thing that I think can get missed in discussions like this is that the child’s mother is suffering. Her soul is hurting as a result of what she went through, whether she knows it or not. The child’s father and other relatives also suffer because they will never know that baby and watch him or her grow up. Abortion kills, but there is harm done to a lot of other people by it, as well.

It seems like you are hurting very badly. I will pray for you and for your sister and her children. I believe her baby is in heaven interceding for you all as well. I’m very sorry for all of the suffering you are going through.

 

[simonmic]

No matter how bad, your sins can and will be forgiven by God if you ask Him for forgiveness.

One thing that I think can get missed in discussions like this is that the child’s mother is suffering. Her soul is hurting as a result of what she went through, whether she knows it or not. The child’s father and other relatives also suffer because they will never know that baby and watch him or her grow up. Abortion kills, but there is harm done to a lot of other people by it, as well.

It seems like you are hurting very badly. I will pray for you and for your sister and her children. I believe her baby is in heaven interceding for you all as well. I’m very sorry for all of the suffering you are going through.

Just pray for my sister.

 

[Ignatius]

That is the real purpose of laws, the make it easier to do the right thing and to protect the innocent and defenseless.
Who is more innocent than the baby in her mothers womb, who is more defenseless?

 

[sallybutler]

How are you going to determine that it was an intentional abortion not a miscarriage? Going back to what Weller stated are you suggesting too that we put in jail all women who suffer miscarriages?

No. As the doctor told me when I had a miscarriage, 1 out of 5 pregnancies ends in a ‘spontaneous abortion’, aka miscarriage. This is generally due to something wrong with the fetus or the mother’s body (for example, RH factor can play into this).

Miscarriages are not the same as planned abortions.

And if we are going to absolve the women who get abortions, then we should also absolve the doctors and the people who force them into it.

 

[Tomdstone]

And if we are going to absolve the women who get abortions, then we should also absolve the doctors and the people who force them into it.

Generally, if a person contracts someone else to commit murder, say to murder her husband or her boss, then both are held responsible.

 

[Viki63]

And if we are going to absolve the women who get abortions, then we should also absolve the doctors and the people who force them into it.

Why? No, if abortions become illegal, then abortionists will be breaking the law and should be held accountable.
Not the mothers, because they are often feeling the stress of lack of support. We don’t realize how little support some women have, how much pressure they may be under. My friend was told by her social worker that if she didn’t get an abortion, she would lose custody of her two sons and never see them again.
She did have the baby, and did lose custody. She gets to see her boys once a month. That was a hard choice for her.

We have to be practical. A Life begins at conception law will never pass if society thinks women will be punished for an abortion. We need to support women so they don’t think they have no choice.

 

[simonmic]

Forgive me for saying this, but simply blaming the doctors all the time is unrealistic and in denial of the truth in my opinion. Yes,you will have some cases where the doctor may pressure, but I think that would usually be in cases where the baby has something seriously wrong with it. I am the last person who would claim much knowledge if any on this and I usually steer clear for personal reasons.

I have always usually been liberal-thinking in many ways and that does not however mean that everything liberal is evil. I don’t even look at those detailed videos of abortions on YouTube and I was someone who used to love everything gory and horrific.

But here is the truth. I have known at least three people who have had an abortion. My sister,as I mentioned and also two cousins. My cousins ‘chose’ to come over here to the UK because around 25 yes or so ago the country of my birth and where they lived would not have allowed them possibly to have an abortion. I don’t know if laws have changed over there now though.

So, there you have 3 examples from just me. I don’t think they were pressured and that they just didn’t want a kid, or more, at that given time.

This is How i See this. That many of you know it would not be possible to to punish all those thousands of mothers who do it each year, for murder, maybe even put them on death row. Many of which, in my opinon are not coaxed or arm-twisted, forced into do it.

By the way…I see it as wrong even though ,only a year or so ago, i would have probably been for it and in denial that it is wrong to abort. Looking at the reasons why on places like the huffington post usually got me thinking…That upon conception, and that at a certain number of weeks, the baby is not somehow human is ridiculous…I did not voice my concerns because i wanted to fit in and feel wanted, so i did not argue. To suppose that a baby is not human until it reaches said amount of weeks is stupid, i was thinking…What on earth do think it would turn out to become, a Duck-Billled Platypus?

Simon

 

[simonmic]

Just quickly and to finish…

Made some typos in the last comments…They should read…25 yrs or so ago, in the country of my birth

The baby is a human .It was made that way by a man and woman (i dunno if God is involved too) , two humans. It is human from the moment it is conceived.There is no way of getting around it and finding excuses to suggest it is not a human being at a given time…Sorry to appear so simplistic but i ain’t one for big words and eloquence.