punishment of apostasy in islam;some authentic references

[umerazad]

You are either mistakenly or deliberately misinterpreting these verses.

The Koran verse above (Surah 9:5) does not talk of the things that Muslims are allowed to do during a war, but at anytime after the sacred months. Muslims are apparently commanded to kill idolaters WHEREVER they find them as well as constantly to intercept them and even ambush to hunt them. There is no restriction to these assaults except for the time (at the end of sacred months).

Absolutely WRONG. This chapter was revealed about the pegans of Arab after they voilated the terms of the peace treaty of Hudaibia around 9th Hijri. Islam didn’t spread by sword. We muslims ruled Spain for 800 years but all the time Christians were a majority over there. We muslims ruled India for over 1000 years but all the time Hindus were a majority over there. Even today there are over 14 million by-birth Christians in arab lands. And all those non-muslims are a proof that muslims never used any force to convert others to Islam and this verse doesn’t apply generally (it had a specific context in which it applied). If you think that Islam was spread by the sword then I would like to know which muslim army invaded the east coast of Africa? Or Indonesia?. Yet all these lands are muslim majority.

Could you please elaborate on this comment of yours? I have read those verses over and over, but cannot find anything even close to supporting your assertions. Blasphemy is not the same as apostasy!

 

[morning_star777]

lol,oh my brother umer,muslims captured both spain&india by war.you know the history.so how can you claim that islam didn’t spread with sword?think about battle of badr.muhammed went to loot pagan’s caravan.then pagan came and protest.so who was attacker?pagans or muhamed

 

[umerazad]

lol,oh my brother umer,muslims captured spain by war.you know the history.so how can you claim that islam didn’t spread by sword?think about badr battle.muhammed went to loot pagan caravan.then pagan came and attack.so who was attacker?pagans or muhamed

If you believe that Islam orders muslims to kill non-believers where-ever they find them … then how come Christains were a majority in Spain even after 800 years of muslim rule? … also how come 80% of population of India remained non-muslim under muslim rule? Had muslim used even some kind of force (say economic force) for thousand years … there wouldn’t have been any non-muslim left in India. Historical evidence is a proof that Islam didn’t use force to spread itself.

But we are deviating from the thread which is about the punishment for apostasy. In my last post I presented the evidence that its Biblical. Any comments about that?

Cheers,
Umer

 

[Angelos]

Absolutely WRONG. This chapter was revealed about the pegans of Arab after they voilated the terms of the peace treaty of Hudaibia around 9th Hijri. Islam didn’t spread by sword. We muslims ruled Spain for 800 years but all the time Christians were a majority over there. We muslims ruled India for over 1000 years but all the time Hindus were a majority over there. Even today there are over 14 million by-birth Christians in arab lands. And all those non-muslims are a proof that muslims never used any force to convert others to Islam and this verse doesn’t apply generally (it had a specific context in which it applied). If you think that Islam was spread by the sword then I would like to know which muslim army invaded the east coast of Africa? Or Indonesia?. Yet all these lands are muslim majority.

Your allegations deny historic facts as well as the clear commandments in your scripture. The most important and reliable evidence rebutting the claims of Islamic tolerance comes from the conquest of Mecca. Can you claim that Meccan pagans constituted the religious majority in Mecca after the conquest? NO!

You are also going off-topic through your references to Christian population in the lands conquered by Muslims. I never claim that Islam conducted ethnic or religious genocide on non-Muslims. However, this does not change the fact that the Koran verse in Surah 9 asks Muslims to fight non-Muslims and financially punish them until they submit to the Islamic ideology.

The Crusades were organized to stop the spread of Islam by the sword! History is a witness to how Muslims (Turks) conquered most countries of Eastern Europe and subjugated their non-Muslim population. Little children were snatched away from their Christian parents and taken to the capital of the Islamic empire to be brought up as perfect Muslims.

Apostasy is a form of blasphemy. But if you disagree, here is another reference quoting death for apostles in Bible:

Deuteronomy - Chapter 13 Verse 6 onwards:
13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

13:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.*

13:10 **And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. **

Any explanation? I can quote you a couple of other places Holy Bible that talk about death for apostasy.

The Mosaic Law was given to Israel through Moses. You are committing the logical fallacy of faulty comparison by quoting from the Old Testament to support your scripture. The commandment to kill idolaters was confined to Israel, which was a religious community that needed to survive among all the other pagan nations of the world. However, the Old Testament did not have the commandment to spread Judaism through wars.

Further, your very scripture endorses the principle in the Torah:

Surah 18:74 So they twain journeyed on till, when they met a lad, he slew him. (Moses) said: What! Hast thou slain an innocent soul who hath slain no man ? Verily thou hast done a horrid thing.

Surah 18:80. And as for the lad, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should oppress them by rebellion and disbelief.

Friend I’ve already presented the proof that had that been the case Muslims would have been a majority in Spain and India. Your accusation is baseless. It isn’t the case.

Muslims could never get India under their full control. As for your other so-called evidence, Muslims were the majority in Spain for some time. How can you expect me to believe that one of the strongest kingdoms of Islamic history established in Spain had more Christians than Muslims?? What made that supposed minority of Muslims the rulers of the country then???

You should also talk about Omar’s conquests targeting Middle East, which were followed by Uthman’s conquests in North Africa. What happened to the Orthodox Christian majority of those countries? How many Christians left in North Africa and Anatolia today???

 

[morning_star777]

80%hindus in india?but muslims are 175million in india,in bangladesh 140million,in pakistan 160 million.total 475 million.so think before 1947!and in spain?though muslims were ruler but they were few in number.but muslims took jijiah from both country..ok now lets back to the topic.thanks

 

[planten]

planten for the last time i am giving some inhuman&contradictory verse reference.sura9:5,29,38,39(killing kafir;both pagan&christian&jews),100lash for fornication.are those human law?contradictory-wine is handiwork of satan.5:9,2:219,but heaven full of wine47:15.god created universe in 6 days.7:54,10:3,25:59&also in 8 days!!41:9-12.how is it possible!wait i am reading.trying to find more

Find what you like. There will be nothing to prove anything bad. The enemies are to be dealt with, not always by offering the other cheek as it is written in the bible. that is a defeatist attitude and non-practical, unnatural.
. Your God also created the universe in six days. Did you note that he rested on the sixth day? Was that because your God became tired after six days work? Please see your own book before jumping onto Quran.

 

[dolphinlove]

Find what you like. There will be nothing to prove anything bad. The enemies are to be dealt with, not always by offering the other cheek as it is written in the bible. that is a defeatist attitude and non-practical, unnatural.

Dont you mean peace loving? What is unnatural about that? You deem it defeatist cause you dont understand the logic behind it, if you did, you would understand the TRUE Jesus.
Muslims understand fighting and revenge, that is not a true God. This passage alone makes a mockery of Islam. Islam doesnt understand what ‘loving the enemy’ means, period!
As for finding nothing bad in the quran… paaahhhhlease!!!
I dont have 2 hours to find all the sura’s about hating, fighting etc etc

Your God also created the universe in six days. Did you note that he rested on the sixth day? Was that because your God became tired after six days work? Please see your own book before jumping onto Quran.

 

[morning_star777]

oho my dear planten,don’t forget that i was a muslim so i can argue with Qurancoz i know quran but since 2002 i didn’t read it.&i am reading my scripture bible but i am in primary stage of bible.u know bible is a large book so it will need lots of time.but about quran?i am reading it again just for references.now i can use only ur scripture against u(muslims).but i promise when i will finish my holy bible then i will use both as references..

 

[morning_star777]

**Find what you like. There will be nothing to prove anything bad.**really?mr.angelos explained to umer about sura9:5.so i don’t want to repeat it.but next references provoked for jihad.do jihad,neither u will be punished by allah.but i told before that no reference is enough for u because u explain ur book(quran)in ur own way:shrug:.i have nothing to say.whatever,if i will give more verse u will edit all.

 

[planten]

Dont you mean peace loving? What is unnatural about that? You deem it defeatist cause you dont understand the logic behind it, if you did, you would understand the TRUE

 

[planten]

oho my dear planten,don’t forget that i was a muslim so i can argue with Qurancoz i know quran but since 2002 i didn’t read it.&i am reading my scripture bible but i am in primary stage of bible.u know bible is a large book so it will need lots of time.but about quran?i am reading it again just for references.now i can use only ur scripture against u(muslims).but i promise when i will finish my holy bible then i will use both as references..

You should have good intentions. Actions are decided by the intentions (Hadith No. 1of the prophet) Your intention seems to be bad when you say that you will use your knowledge against the Muslims. That does not seem well for a christian. But you are a new christian. You are still in the learning stage.
God knows when you will be fully charged with extra biblical knowledge then what harsh feelings you will spread. You will then storm the muslim castles, you hope.

 

[inJESUS]

Platen, do you have to attack the Bible when you don’t have arguments? discuss YOUR religion, not our book. If Jesus wanted wars to be “prescribed” as the Quran says,and the best people are those who go to wars instead of lagging behind ( a verse Allah remembered after an ill man raised objections), He would have made it clear, yet He made clear He does NOT want though He can. So discuss what your ulema say, we know what Jesus says.

 

[morning_star777]

planten,when u use ur knowledge against christianity then?when u again&again claim that a CHURCH made jesus GOD&actually jesus isn’t god,then?ya u r muslim so i don’t expect that u will believe jesus as God.but when you again&again claim that a church establish a man(jesus)as God then is it ur good intention?pls judge urself 1st.&pls remember,i do not have any problem with moderate muslim like u.i have problem with islam&i explained this at past

 

[dolphinlove]

dolphinlove;3854005:

** We understand the words of Jesus more than you. jesus was right when he said “Do not oppose. Offer the other cheek”. He was perfectly right for the time that the Jews were facing under Roman rule and a misguided clergy. His own people (leader Jews) were corrupt and misbehaving, ignorants and enemies of Jesus. John the baptist and Jesus himslef abused those people very much.

There was no other suitable advice for the people except to offer the other cheek. That was good for the time only. Please try to understand that it is not the final useful, natural principle. Who follows it now? Tell me? It is only good for singing.

We understand the words of Jesus but you people using too many metaphors spoil the real teachings…**

okay, dont use your precious time on other bad work please.

** I do not need any links. If you have something sensible then please present it in your words.**

Planten,
It is you and your religion that takes the Christianity texts and misconstrue the true meaning of it. You fail to understand the NT was done not only for Christians, but for everyone. It teaches us how to live the way God wants us to live, even today. Its not about fables and stories that are only needed for that moment. Its God displaying how life is meant to be lived.
I am following what you are writing, but it amuses me too much to see how you fail to understand the true Jesus.
I can go on all day about your lack of knowledge on how to decipher the scriptures, but i will turn the other cheek
And please, do not insult Jesus about abusing people again, and John the Baptist for that matter. By doing so, you are insulting God and one of his greatest followers. Now that is good advice im giving you right there.

 

[wth1257]

Dont you mean peace loving? What is unnatural about that? You deem it defeatist cause you dont understand the logic behind it, if you did, you would understand the TRUE Jesus.
Muslims understand fighting and revenge, that is not a true God. This passage alone makes a mockery of Islam. Islam doesnt understand what ‘loving the enemy’ means, period!
As for finding nothing bad in the quran… paaahhhhlease!!!
I dont have 2 hours to find all the sura’s about hating, fighting etc etc

I believe you have repeatedly made the argument that Christians are not called upon to “be doormats” and numerous other statement that are quite contrary to Jesus’ teachings.

If you’re going to chastise Islam for not meeting your highbrow moral pacifistic standards, perhaps you yourself should stop advocating against them.

We know perfectly well what our bible says, and making silly and childish comments like that doesnt warrant a response. But here is a nice link for you to read
here

Who’s “we”?

 

[planten]

planten;3856356:

Planten,
It is you and your religion that takes the Christianity texts and misconstrue the true meaning of it. You fail to understand the NT was done not only for Christians, but for everyone. It teaches us how to live the way God wants us to live, even today. Its not about fables and stories that are only needed for that moment. Its God displaying how life is meant to be lived.
I am following what you are writing, but it amuses me too much to see how you fail to understand the true Jesus.
I can go on all day about your lack of knowledge on how to decipher the scriptures, but i will turn the other cheek
And please, do not insult Jesus about abusing people again, and John the Baptist for that matter.

By doing so, you are insulting God and one of his greatest followers. Now that is good advice im giving you right there.

** I had shown you that we read and understand the bible. You have not shown where is my mistake. It means you had no real reply as far as bible is concerned. We Muslims are content with whatever is available of the bible.

In the end, please do not blame me if john the baptist and Jesus were abusing the people, calling them rascals, scorpions, sons of serpents and evil generation. There is plenty of that in your bible. Will you please take out all those bad words (verses) of abuse from the bible that Jesus used to describe his people?? Then every one will understand and will not say that Jesus had been abusive.

Will you please agree for once to me that Jesus had abused the evil people of his times?? Let us have the truth from you now.**

 

[swariffin]

dolphinlove;3858232:

** I had shown you that we read and understand the bible. You have not shown where is my mistake. It means you had no real reply as far as bible is concerned. We Muslims are content with whatever is available of the bible.

In the end, please do not blame me if john the baptist and Jesus were abusing the people, calling them rascals, scorpions, sons of serpents and evil generation. There is plenty of that in your bible. Will you please take out all those bad words (verses) of abuse from the bible that Jesus used to describe his people?? Then every one will understand and will not say that Jesus had been abusive.

Will you please agree for once to me that Jesus had abused the evil people of his times?? Let us have the truth from you now.**

All right then, Planten. In order to make things short, please mentioned the exact verse one by one, and we will answer one by one too. If goes off-topic, we can start a new one for this. Will that be OK? If you don’t believe our view as the Christian view, go ask a Christian priest. Don’t ask a Muslim sheik for Christian teaching, my dear friend. There is no such things of Christianity a la Islam as I have told you manytimes.

 

[Angelos]

In the end, please do not blame me if john the baptist and Jesus were abusing the people, calling them rascals, scorpions, sons of serpents and evil generation. There is plenty of that in your bible. Will you please take out all those bad words (verses) of abuse from the bible that Jesus used to describe his people?? Then every one will understand and will not say that Jesus had been abusive.

Will you please agree for once to me that Jesus had abused the evil people of his times?? Let us have the truth from you now.

I fail to see what enables you to designate Jesus’ “denunciation” of the religious leaders as an “abusive” act??? These two are totally different notions. If I criticised you for failing to make that distinction, would you sue me with the claim that I abused you?

 

[planten]

I fail to see what enables you to designate Jesus’ “denunciation” of the religious leaders as an “abusive” act??? These two are totally different notions. If I criticised you for failing to make that distinction, would you sue me with the claim that I abused you?

Critisizing is different to abusing and accusing. You know very well the decent language used by John the baptist and Jesus about thier own people. It is very much in the bible. i wish that you post it yourself and explain the matter please. Every one will see if it is criticism or abuse. Welcome. Post the nice verses (words full of love).

 

[Angelos]

Critisizing is different to abusing and accusing. You know very well the decent language used by John the baptist and Jesus about thier own people. It is very much in the bible. i wish that you post it yourself and explain the matter please. Every one will see if it is criticism or abuse. Welcome. Post the nice verses (words full of love).

Jesus only denounced the religious authorities of His time, He never abused them! Such a designation is ridiculous. Would you please post the verses where, according to your interpretation, Jesus abused Pharisees???

More to the point, what does Jesus’ harsh critique have to do with this thread? Why are you always choosing to be irrelevant to the main topic?