punishment of apostasy in islam;some authentic references

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planten,finally i have found 2 very authentic hadith about the punishment of apostasy.bukhari: 6442,6443.in 1st hadith when ali burned some apostate then ibn abbas told that ppl shouldn’t be burnt&if i(ibn abbas) were in ur place,i must killed them according to muhamed’s order.in 2nd hadith abu musa didn’t take seat until ppl didn’t kill this apostate(ex jew who became jew again).abu musa said that it was muhamed’s order.then he killed the man
 
i want to add a point in my previous post.actually bukhari:6442(narrated by ikrama),6443(narrated by abu musa),both hadith ordered to kill the apostates without any other reasons.anybody can read those 2 hadith.so those hadith prove that the punishment of apostasy in islam is just kill.muslim fellows,now you may write any comment.but read those hadith 1st.but i am afraid that maybe some muslim will explain those clear hadith in different way!
 
morning_star777…
please post the whole hadiths not just numbers…
 
Read:

Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.

A hypocrite is not the same thing as an apostate.

They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them

Renegades? This means they are fighting the Muslims.

**Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), **or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: **Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them). **

Now, you left this last verse out. It’s more important. If the person leaves the Muslim faith and isn’t fighting the Muslims–either flees towards those with whom Muslims have a peace treaty, or if he himself declares peace, then Muslims aren’t allowed to fight him.

So, morning star, you actually proved that Muslims aren’t allowed to kill you unless you start fighting them. Bravo! 👍

This was not an exercise in rhetoric or trying to use fancy words to confound the issue. The Qur’an is quite clear on this issue–and because it is so, you had to leave the Qur’an in your argument. I just copied the original post so those who didn’t read it, or who forgot it, could be reminded.

The Qur’an says: Therefore if they (i.e., apostates) withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).
 
sister amy,you are very clever.i didn’t prove what u claimed.why did you post this references?i did give another references.so u proved that ur scriptures r contradictory.i didn’t translante those references because i am scared that if i will made any mistake when translate,then you will find a weapon against me.but i wil find english version of quran&hadith.but if mr.angelos or brother inJESUS or any1 will post those hadith then it will be good.
 
Morning Star, i posted a long post about this topic so i will not argue anyone who opposes them…those who oppose them must deal with the scholars, not me . Scholar Maududi for example says rejecting the death penalty is the product of the late 19th century but was agreed upon since the rise of Islam. Any Muslim who gives you a pinky “la vie en rose” kind of fatwa is simply trying to evade the controversy. Death penalty is still there, that is more than enough till now. Any Muslim who wants to teach otherwise will have to deal with too many ahadith and scholarly opinions stating otherwise…but i’ll be more than happy if they give a blind eye to all of them and stop killing people who refuse Muhammad’s ideologies.
 
yes brother inJESUS you are correct.but amy is trying to misguide people with other lame references.and she proved that what quran said,hadith denied it or what hadith say,quran denied it.so it is also a prove that muslim scriptures are very contradictory.and i will try not to post references soon.1st i have to find english version of quran&hadith.i can find english quran but it will be tough for me to find ahadith in english in bangladesh!
 
oh&see that brother inJESUS?if i will translate hadith but if i will make little mistake then it will be a nice weapon against me.they will claim that i am spreading rumour!english is not my mother tongue so if i want to post full verses properly then i need english version of islamic scripture.i hope sooner or later i will find it&honestly speaking i will find it just to answer muslims cause i don’t need any islamic scripture in any language
 
finally i just want to say that i am not leaving this field.just don’t want to post sharp references maybe for a month though i will argue with our muslim fellow in another way.but after someday i hope i will able to post a new thread with lots of reference.so dear sister hope i will find you as a perfect opponent.no hurry,i need some time.i am not running away from CAF.&my dear clever sister amy just remember,TOMORROW NEVER DIES:)good night.
 
Please allow me to repeat myself again, to make it abundantly clear.

Morningstar has so graciously provided us all with references from the Qur’an which quite explicitly point out that apostasy is likened to a crime against the state, equivalent to treason, and there is a punishment ascribed to that crime. However, the same verses ALSO point out that apostasy is not NECESSARILY a crime against the state–so if the apostate isn’t wanting to fight the Muslims, and is declaring peace, then the Muslims are not ALLOWED to fight him or kill him.

It’s right there in the Qur’an, plain as day. 🙂
 
morning_star777 said:
planten,finally i have found 2 very authentic hadith about the punishment of apostasy.bukhari: 6442,6443.in 1st hadith when ali burned some apostate then ibn abbas told that ppl shouldn’t be burnt&if i(ibn abbas) were in ur place,i must killed them according to muhamed’s order.in 2nd hadith abu musa didn’t take seat until ppl didn’t kill this apostate(ex jew who became jew again).abu musa said that it was muhamed’s order.then he killed the man
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Morning_star, please do not run to Hadith before you have dealt with Quran. Apostacy is a capital punishment and cannot be prescribed unless mentioned in the Quran. You have failed to show any verse of the quran which may say “kill the apostates…” There is no such thing.

So then please do not post any Hadith in that respect. Hadith comes after the Quran. And Hadith should not contradict the verses of Quran. The Hadith you are posting is against the Verse 2:256 which says “There is no compulsion in (any ) religion.”

You have failed to prove anything about apostacy. There are ignorant bigots in Islam also, same as your misguided teachers. They are teaching wrong things to the Muslims. But they have no grounds, no basis. So please do not support those illiterate people.
 
well i won’t give any hadith as reference.but its amazing that sahih bukhari is also wrong sometime:).this book deny Quranic law and allow to kill the apostate.unfortunately now my ignorant&misguided teacher is sahih hadith.AL BUKHARI!😉
 
morning_star777 said:
sister amy,you are very clever.i didn’t prove what u claimed.why did you post this references?i did give another references.so u proved that ur scriptures r contradictory.i didn’t translante those references because i am scared that if i will made any mistake when translate,then you will find a weapon against me.but i wil find english version of quran&hadith.but if mr.angelos or brother inJESUS or any1 will post those hadith then it will be good.
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planten said:
Morning_star, please do not run to Hadith before you have dealt with Quran. Apostacy is a capital punishment and cannot be prescribed unless mentioned in the Quran.
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Death is the punishment if someone leaves Islam (peacefully or non-peacefully), no Muslim in any country now or later can change that, there are direct authentic hadiths about the death punishment of apostasy, and that’s implemented fully in Saudi Arabia:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
“Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s Apostle forbade it, saying, ‘Do not punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire).’ I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah’s Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.’”
(E) usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/084.sbt.html#009.084.057
(A) hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=0&Rec=10312

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58:
“…Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu’adh asked, “Who is this (man)?” Abu Muisa said, “He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.” Then Abu Muisa requested Mu’adh to sit down but Mu’adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed…”
(E) usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/084.sbt.html#009.084.058
(A) hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=0&Rec=10313

Sahih Muslim, Book 016, Number 4152:
“'Abdullah (b. Mas’ud) reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: It is not permissible to take the life of a Muslim who bears testimony (to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and I am the Messenger of Allah, but in one of the three cases: the married adulterer, a life for life, and the deserter of his Din (Islam), abandoning the community.”
(E) usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/016.smt.html#016.4152
(A) hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=1&Rec=4059

For our non Arabic Muslims, I suggest you find an Arabic Muslim cleric, and let him/her explain this detailed link to you about the punishment of apostasy in Islam:
islamadvice.com/akida/akida11.htm
 
Are you saying, Sam, that there is something in Islam which overrules the Book of Allah? Tsk tsk, you should know better.
 
Sam_777

We believe that Ali and ibn Abbas are (humans) and DID actually make mistakes in society and religion.
 
morning_star777 said:
well i won’t give any hadith as reference.but its amazing that sahih bukhari is also wrong sometime:).this book deny Quranic law and allow to kill the apostate.unfortunately now my ignorant&misguided teacher is sahih hadith.AL BUKHARI!😉
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Dear morning_star, our Bukhari is like your bible. It is written by men in their own words. The bible is the biography of Jesus (not even auto-biography). There are many useful things in the Bukhari as well as in the bible.

It is necessary to take the situation into account when reading Bukhari. Sometime people recant (become apostates) and kill the muslim believers as it happened once in Madinah outskirts. Those culprits were brought back and killed. So, such cases are recorded in Bukhari. Some time it was during the war time that some people changed platforms. That was not the right time to do such things. Please note. Thanks.
 
Nicolas said:
Sam_777

We believe that Ali and ibn Abbas are (humans) and DID actually make mistakes in society and religion.
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they must have learnt their mistakes from Muhammad…they were of ahl al beit…that is, his own family…if one got it wrong, someone must have corrected him, if both got it wrong, someone else must have corrected them… yet no one did…and these hadith are authentic, and they are the result of Muhammad’s teachings.
 
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