M
marymmma
Guest
Thank you Patrick! I just need to remember all this when my mind is being tormented with it. But I believe in time it will all be better. It’s still pretty raw.
- Status
The_Reginator
Active member
I have never investigated that idea via Church documents, but in the last few years I’ve come to believe that part of our purgatory can be here on earth.
The other aspect of purgatory, together with becoming purified in order to enter heaven, is our responsibility for our sins. Jesus did indeed pay the price that we can not pay. Out of Infinite Love He suffered in our stead. But logic and justice says to me that we “… will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” (Matthew 5:26) Part of our responsibility is to accept the punishments that God’s Justice demands. If we are fortunate enough we will be able to pay a good portion of that here on earth.
From **Temporal Punishment **at justforcatholics.org:
That piece is certainly worth the read.
P
PJM
Guest
Purgatory is perhaps among the GREATEST evidences of God’s love for man, who alone can know,love, Obey and worship Him.
The Church then picks up on this and exercises Her Power of the “Key’s” to Christ Kingdom, and Her Powers to “bind and loose” Mt. 16:18-19; which are effectively unlimited Powers of Governance. John 17:18 and 20:21
**1 John 1:8-10 tells us clearly that “all men are sinners” **
So Mother Church then creates way’s in which the Temporal punishmentt that all sins incur [even sins Confessed and completely forgiven], can be repaid, as Divine Justice demands, while still on earth.
Two of the methods are Indulgences and the Last Rites [final anointing].
All Catholics would do well to be familiar with both of these. Also our Charity always is partial repayment of this debt.
Let us learn our Fairh fully so that we can practice it in a manner apparent to ALL:thumbsup:
God Bless you, GREAT post!
H
HelenRose
Guest
I have often wondered if Purgatory is a time of regret. A time or place where the ripples of our lifes are before our eyes. Recognizing how the wrongs of our life have rippled through time affecting the lives of others. I have often wondered if time spent in Purgatory will depend on how far the painful ripples extend and, hopefully, how far the ripples of the good in your life extend.
Perhaps that is why praying for the Suffering Souls in purgatory can help. Perhaps by our prays for these souls, the harm that was done will come to an end.
I also wonder if Hell is the place were people have no desire to regret. As if their choice is, “I am not sorry for the pain I have caused. I lived my life my way and I really do not care how the chips fell.” In Hell, the people who have no remorse do not want redemption. Pride is their choice. Sorrow for their action is not possible.
Perhaps that is why praying for the Suffering Souls in purgatory can help. Perhaps by our prays for these souls, the harm that was done will come to an end.
I also wonder if Hell is the place were people have no desire to regret. As if their choice is, “I am not sorry for the pain I have caused. I lived my life my way and I really do not care how the chips fell.” In Hell, the people who have no remorse do not want redemption. Pride is their choice. Sorrow for their action is not possible.
J
JamalChristophr
Guest
I think their is remorse in Hell, but not Charity. Souls know how stupid and foolish they were to have made the choices they made and end up where they did. They can feel no joy nor pleasure in Hell and are cut off from the one thing (for all eternity) that could have brought them happiness which is God.
Purgatory I’m less sure of, but I think regret focuses a bit more on looking back while the souls in Purgatory are unbelievably excited to be going to Heaven, so they are looking forward. Heaven is a million times better than the life we have now and the souls in Purgatory have gotten a taste for it of some kind and that I’m sure leads to a lot of suffering when they know they can’t go there yet but must wait until they’ve been purified.
We really do need to try and skip purgatory,and I don’t think it’s being presumptuous and proud to have this as our goal. Mother Angelica said the same and that’s where I got the notion from, I think, but to do this will require lots of work here on Earth in the here and now, and also that we acccept our present, past, and future trials gracefully and as sent or permitted by God for our benefit though we may know not how. This is a hard part. I can certainly attest to it, but we ought to try.
It’s a great act of Charity to pray and sacrifice for the Holy Souls in Purgatory as they can no longer help themselves.
Purgatory I’m less sure of, but I think regret focuses a bit more on looking back while the souls in Purgatory are unbelievably excited to be going to Heaven, so they are looking forward. Heaven is a million times better than the life we have now and the souls in Purgatory have gotten a taste for it of some kind and that I’m sure leads to a lot of suffering when they know they can’t go there yet but must wait until they’ve been purified.
We really do need to try and skip purgatory,and I don’t think it’s being presumptuous and proud to have this as our goal. Mother Angelica said the same and that’s where I got the notion from, I think, but to do this will require lots of work here on Earth in the here and now, and also that we acccept our present, past, and future trials gracefully and as sent or permitted by God for our benefit though we may know not how. This is a hard part. I can certainly attest to it, but we ought to try.
It’s a great act of Charity to pray and sacrifice for the Holy Souls in Purgatory as they can no longer help themselves.
The_Reginator
Active member
Purgatory is perhaps among the GREATEST evidences of God’s love for man, who alone can know,love, Obey and worship Him.
The Church then picks up on this and exercises Her Power of the “Key’s” to Christ Kingdom, and Her Powers to “bind and loose” Mt. 16:18-19; which are effectively unlimited Powers of Governance. John 17:18 and 20:21
**1 John 1:8-10 tells us clearly that “all men are sinners” **
So Mother Church then creates way’s in which the Temporal punishmentt that all sins incur [even sins Confessed and completely forgiven], can be repaid, as Divine Justice demands, while still on earth.
Two of the methods are Indulgences and the Last Rites [final anointing].
All Catholics would do well to be familiar with both of these. Also our Charity always is partial repayment of this debt.
Let us learn our Fairh fully so that we can practice it in a manner apparent to ALL:thumbsup:
God Bless you, GREAT post!
B
bobballen_18
Guest
I think PJM had a good post. As she said, we cannot know for certain where souls are after death (except in the case of canonized saints), but if you believe that your son really did believe in God and was just angry at him, I would hold on to that thought if I were you. God always gives all people on earth an adequate chance to choose Him, whether that is all throughout their life or if it’s only just as they die. It would be unjust of God to not allow us all this chance. So please continue to have hope for your son! As a couple of others have suggested, it is a good idea to have Masses said for the repose of his soul, if you haven’t done so already. Although there’s no limit of Masses you can say for one’s soul, as far as I know. I’ll remember you in my prayers tonight!
The_Reginator
Active member
Oops. I meant to highlight the section that jumped out at me. I guess I was getting tired …
Anyhoo, here’s the corrected quote. Thanks PJM!!
( Maybe I should have changed the fonts here and there as well. Just to make things harder to read.
)
T
Thomas_White
Guest
I agree.
“For with the same measure that you mete withal, it shall be measured to you again.” Genesis 1:27
“As you sow, so shall you reap.” Galatians 6:7
Don’t we know it?
H
HelenRose
Guest
Thinking about the word remorse. It actually has two meanings. It is possible that the remorse found in Hell it the type of remorse that one feels when one is sorry he or she was caught. Maybe the type of remorse one feels in purgatory is the type of remorse one feels when they realize the pain and suffering they have caused another and wish they could undo the pain, not for themselves but for others.
J
JamalChristophr
Guest
Along those lines, I often hear that Judas Isacariot, the one who betrayed Jesus, **and **Peter, our first Pope, both had remorse. in both was an awareness that they had done wrong. But Peter also had repentance… Judas went and hanged himself. Peter went and begged for forgiveness, essentially asking for mercy from the Lord and resolving to change his ways.
T
Thomas_White
Guest
When I was rather young (6 to 8 years of age, maybe,) it used to trouble me that God already knew the outcome for my soul. In fact, He knew the outcome for every soul there ever was or ever would be. So what could I do? In time I would understand the concept of free will and that predestination was not a Catholic belief. But Purgatory frightened me. The thought of being cast into fire for any length of time was hardly a comfortable one. Maybe a million years of it? Who could know? It got your attention. Attaining Sainthood seemed an excellent idea.
What Purgatory would mean is not, in adulthood, really very clear. It cannot be the experience of heaven, of course. It is likely closer to the absence of heaven. I have sometimes wondered, in this valley of tears, if I am not already in Purgatory. I don’t actually think so, of course. But I believe whatever Purgatory is, it ought to be our goal to limit our time in it to the extent it is possible for us to do it.
Purgatory surely involves suffering, even if it is only the absence of something that we will know is there and that we have not yet attained. So there is in Purgatory repentance and sorrow for what has brought us to our present state. How this is resolved, I do not know. But I think maybe it is that we remain in time. In time, there is the concept of a past and a future. Neither actually exists even in this temporal world–only the present moment exists–but our consciousness in bound up in the past and future. And so are our many sorrows and regrets and our fear of what is yet to come. In that way, we do not yet exist in an eternal state. Heaven is perhaps a state of pure being in an eternal present and in the image of the Creator who made us. That ‘image’ is almost certainly the soul. Purgatory would then be understood as not yet attaining that state and repenting for it, fully aware of the past that has brought us to it and with our thoughts of this past not yet resolved. And it would be the resolution of this sinful past that would allow us entry into the eternal state of the soul–an eternal present–that is heaven.
What Purgatory would mean is not, in adulthood, really very clear. It cannot be the experience of heaven, of course. It is likely closer to the absence of heaven. I have sometimes wondered, in this valley of tears, if I am not already in Purgatory. I don’t actually think so, of course. But I believe whatever Purgatory is, it ought to be our goal to limit our time in it to the extent it is possible for us to do it.
Purgatory surely involves suffering, even if it is only the absence of something that we will know is there and that we have not yet attained. So there is in Purgatory repentance and sorrow for what has brought us to our present state. How this is resolved, I do not know. But I think maybe it is that we remain in time. In time, there is the concept of a past and a future. Neither actually exists even in this temporal world–only the present moment exists–but our consciousness in bound up in the past and future. And so are our many sorrows and regrets and our fear of what is yet to come. In that way, we do not yet exist in an eternal state. Heaven is perhaps a state of pure being in an eternal present and in the image of the Creator who made us. That ‘image’ is almost certainly the soul. Purgatory would then be understood as not yet attaining that state and repenting for it, fully aware of the past that has brought us to it and with our thoughts of this past not yet resolved. And it would be the resolution of this sinful past that would allow us entry into the eternal state of the soul–an eternal present–that is heaven.
H
HelenRose
Guest
I have often thought that trying to figure our what the here-after is would be like a blind person trying to understand the color blue.
We have hints, we have ideas, we struggle to understand but we can not truly understand.
I put my faith in the knowledge that God knows what He is doing.
It is like that old Protestant Song that I grew up with.
“We will understand it Bye and Bye.”
We have hints, we have ideas, we struggle to understand but we can not truly understand.
I put my faith in the knowledge that God knows what He is doing.
It is like that old Protestant Song that I grew up with.
“We will understand it Bye and Bye.”
T
Thomas_White
Guest
Yes, we cannot understand certain things, perhaps because they are beyond the comprehension of reason and the human intellect. So there is belief.
Nevertheless, throughout the history of the Church there have been those few of extraordinarily spirituality that have had experiences that cannot be explained. I don’t doubt it. I believe Thomas Merton, a Trappist monk and priest (Father Lawrence) was a contemporary example of such a person. While reading his writings, I became convinced that this deeply spiritual and contemplative man was, at least at times, in touch with something ineffable. I believe this can be experienced but not explained.
Nevertheless, throughout the history of the Church there have been those few of extraordinarily spirituality that have had experiences that cannot be explained. I don’t doubt it. I believe Thomas Merton, a Trappist monk and priest (Father Lawrence) was a contemporary example of such a person. While reading his writings, I became convinced that this deeply spiritual and contemplative man was, at least at times, in touch with something ineffable. I believe this can be experienced but not explained.
T
Thomas_White
Guest
Correction to my comment above: When Thomas Merton was ordained after he had been a Trappist monk for about eight years, he was given the name Father Louis. He remained a Trappist monk until his death in 1968.
P
PJM
Guest
Hi Helen,
Thanks for a thoughtful and beautiful post.
Because God is Good and Just, and VERY Merciful, we can expect time in Purgatory to be absolutely no longer than is necessary to repay the Temporal Punishment our sins accrue and must be paid for in order for us to get into heaven.
Our GOAL ought to be to be enabled to bypass Purgatory; which is possible through Indulgences; our Good and charitable works, and the Last Rite for which we ought to be praying for daily; for ourselves and others.
Let me know if you’d like more information of Indulgences.
God Bless you,
Patrick
P
PJM
Guest
Hi Thomas,
Its not just a theory; it’s a Doctrine of the CC:thumbsup:
All of our good works, all of our Charity, has a positive [pay-back] value of the Temporal Punishment that we “earned” from sinning.
The Problem is:
We can’t know the extent of the Temporal Punishment God assigns in Divine Justice to each of us and each sin we commit. NOR can we know to what extent, God credits what we do to the accrued debt.
Therefore we need to have a good understanding of Indulgences and the Last Rites
.If you’d like more information on either or both, please let me know.
God Bless you,
Patrick
R
rayb3638
Guest
Hi PJM
How can we talk about time in purgatory when the dimension of time does not exist in the after life. I pray for the souls in purgatory it has always been our wonderful tradition, but all that is written about purgatory is pure speculation. Karl Rahner wrote very little about the after life and speculated that the actual process of dying is part of the purgatorial process. When you witness the prolonged suffering of a near and dear one prior to the spirit leaving there is something I feel to be said for this view. Best Regards rayb3638
How can we talk about time in purgatory when the dimension of time does not exist in the after life. I pray for the souls in purgatory it has always been our wonderful tradition, but all that is written about purgatory is pure speculation. Karl Rahner wrote very little about the after life and speculated that the actual process of dying is part of the purgatorial process. When you witness the prolonged suffering of a near and dear one prior to the spirit leaving there is something I feel to be said for this view. Best Regards rayb3638
P
PJM
Guest
Because Purgatory flows directly from the HEART of God who must be JUST, we can 'and ought to] know that it serves both a good and a necessary purpose.
And your point about time is “right-on!”. Time is a human invention for humans; not for God for whom all things, ALL THINGS are present tense.
It seems to ME, that ones time-internment in Purgatory being controlled and known only to God, is to a manifestation of God’s love, in that God’s Church has created ways for the necessary repayment due to Our Sins; Temporal Punishment to be re-payed while we still can do so on earth… Thus one’s time has to factor in that one did not choose to make repayment while still alive and able to do so.
Whatever the amount of time; Purgatory is a time of expectations of the Ultimate good news that ALL will at some point attain the Beatific Vision… So while suffering , one acepts that condition KNOWING that it is fully justified by our own choices and that in the end; once Perfected, we will be in the Divine Presence for Eternity:thumbsup:.
God Bless you,
Patrick
T
Thomas_White
Guest
It just would seem that if one’s……
I stopped right there for a reason. The next word would have to be ‘time’. So: it just would seem that if one’s time in Purgatory is limited—with a beginning and an end—it necessary occurs in time. It would involve a Becoming as opposed to being in an eternal present moment in a timeless (eternal) state of pure being. Purgatory is a concept, and it would seem that those that speculate that Purgatory is experienced while we are indeed alive and in our temporal existence could be correct. I don’t know.
Scripture informs of a Last Judgment. At that time, the Son, He who was given by the Father the right to judge, will judge both the living and the dead. Those who have attained salvation will enter eternal life. Those condemned will suffer death. But the condemned are not ‘dead’ as the word is commonly understood. They are ‘dead’ to something that exists. What then is ‘death’ in this context? Our understanding (or at least mine) seems to hit a brick wall here unless death means the eternal denial of the Beatific Vision. And this denial would entail an eternal damnation entailing suffering. This state too would be outside of time.
This leaves Purgatory difficult to understand. Again, it seems it would necessarily occur in time. How could this—time–occur in eternity? Well, though we exist in time in this temporal world, our souls are already in eternal existence. So perhaps Purgatory is a continuation of a Becoming, in time, that ends as our being enters the eternal present moment. This necessary would occur at some point in time for all of us. It would therefore seem that Purgatory must end with the Last Judgment and the end of time. What it would not mean is that a soul in Purgatory must remain in that state until the end of time.
But Creation exists in time and it would seem its ground is in some pure being from which it emerges. This could be called a Supreme Being, and indeed it is. Being is not becoming. It IS. The end of time then would involve an Apocalypse, the lifting of the veil of Revelation. In this way, the condemned would realize that there is a Beatific Vision and that it will ever be denied to them. This is Hell.
This is how I understand it as this time. It is not to say it is correct. I don’t know. It is all conceptual and not existential. What, for example, would occur to the soul after death in this temporal world and before the Last Judgment and the end of time? I don’t know. What I do know is that very few of those who ever lived have been canonized as Saints by the Church. There is mystery.
I stopped right there for a reason. The next word would have to be ‘time’. So: it just would seem that if one’s time in Purgatory is limited—with a beginning and an end—it necessary occurs in time. It would involve a Becoming as opposed to being in an eternal present moment in a timeless (eternal) state of pure being. Purgatory is a concept, and it would seem that those that speculate that Purgatory is experienced while we are indeed alive and in our temporal existence could be correct. I don’t know.
Scripture informs of a Last Judgment. At that time, the Son, He who was given by the Father the right to judge, will judge both the living and the dead. Those who have attained salvation will enter eternal life. Those condemned will suffer death. But the condemned are not ‘dead’ as the word is commonly understood. They are ‘dead’ to something that exists. What then is ‘death’ in this context? Our understanding (or at least mine) seems to hit a brick wall here unless death means the eternal denial of the Beatific Vision. And this denial would entail an eternal damnation entailing suffering. This state too would be outside of time.
This leaves Purgatory difficult to understand. Again, it seems it would necessarily occur in time. How could this—time–occur in eternity? Well, though we exist in time in this temporal world, our souls are already in eternal existence. So perhaps Purgatory is a continuation of a Becoming, in time, that ends as our being enters the eternal present moment. This necessary would occur at some point in time for all of us. It would therefore seem that Purgatory must end with the Last Judgment and the end of time. What it would not mean is that a soul in Purgatory must remain in that state until the end of time.
But Creation exists in time and it would seem its ground is in some pure being from which it emerges. This could be called a Supreme Being, and indeed it is. Being is not becoming. It IS. The end of time then would involve an Apocalypse, the lifting of the veil of Revelation. In this way, the condemned would realize that there is a Beatific Vision and that it will ever be denied to them. This is Hell.
This is how I understand it as this time. It is not to say it is correct. I don’t know. It is all conceptual and not existential. What, for example, would occur to the soul after death in this temporal world and before the Last Judgment and the end of time? I don’t know. What I do know is that very few of those who ever lived have been canonized as Saints by the Church. There is mystery.
- Status