Purgation after final judgement

[Ginger2]

How can you correct someone with heretical doctrine.

This is one area where I agree with the Catholic Church.

 

[Ginger2]

What a stupid example, of a fake hero. We are talking textbook Catholicism and you bring up straw man examples.

The example is to demonstrate that we cannot know what is in a man’s heart.

Manny insisted in the example, way back, to make the man an athetist. I wanted to keep the example simple.

Wrong, the atheist scenario sprang out of a conversation I was having with someone else. You are the one who insists and atheist is absolutely without a doubt saved if he dies trying to save another’s life.

It is time for me to go to bed. Wish me pleasant dreams.

Pleasant dreams, mgrfin

 

[Mannyfit75]

Here is summary:

Atheist, who is rejects God completely, he acknowledges, consent it, and accept it, cannot be saved.

An atheist have to cease to be an atheist or at least repent moments before he dies, so God can forgive him. That we know much.

I don’t believe charity or good works cannot bear any fruit if takes God out of the equation. An atheist denies God. The Catholic Church believes there is no salvation outside the Church. She also believes that God works outside the sacrament. Atheist have to repentent of their sins to be truly forgiven, and be saved. God only know the hearts of men to judge.

 

[mgrfin]

Here is summary:

Atheist, who is rejects God completely, he acknowledges, consent it, and accept it, cannot be saved.

An atheist have to cease to be an atheist or at least repent moments before he dies, so God can forgive him. That we know much.

I don’t believe charity or good works cannot bear any fruit if takes God out of the equation. An atheist denies God. The Catholic Church believes there is no salvation outside the Church. She also believes that God works outside the sacrament. Atheist have to repentent of their sins to be truly forgiven, and be saved. God only know the hearts of men to judge.

That may be the summary of your position. It is certainly not the summary of mine. Your summary is also the summary of the Protestant position.

I quoted to you the position of Jesus Christ, St. Paul, St. Thomas.
How can a perfect act of charity take God out of the equation.

Here is the summary of my position:

According to St. Thomas, it is charity that unites us to God, who is the end of the human mind, since ‘he that abides in charity abides in God and God in him’. Therefore the perfection of the Christian life consists radically in charity – not faith, not hope, but charity.

St. Paul tells us: “Above all things have charity, which is the bond of perfection’ because it binds, as it were, all the other virtues together in perfect unity (St. Thomas). God is the reason for our loving our neighbor out of charity.

Ambrose commenting maintained that all virtues are connected and interlocked such that he who has one has all. St. Gregory taught that if one virtue could be had without the others, either it is not a virtue, or it is not perfect. Our good man has perfect charity, shown by his laying down his life for his neighbor.

Go back to my posts where I made it clear as our Saints have made it clear that the Virtues are interlocking. You cannont have a perfection in any Virtue, without it perfecting all the other virtues.

THIS PERFECT ACT OF CHARITY PERFECTS EACH AND EVERY OTHER VIRTUE: PERFECT FAITH, PERFECT HOPE, PERFECTING ALSO THE MORAL VIRTUES. PRUDENCE, JUSTICE, FORTITUDE, AND TEMPERANCE.

peace

 

[ajk19]

Only God has the power to perfect you, there is and can never be any other way.

 

[mgrfin]

The example is to demonstrate that we cannot know what is in a man’s heart.

Wrong, the atheist scenario sprang out of a conversation I was having with someone else. You are the one who insists and atheist is absolutely without a doubt saved if he dies trying to save another’s life.

The “Wrong” is right!

You have taken yourself out of the equation, Ginger. Good deeds to you before justification are sins.

The all-Good God is, according to your Protestant beliefs, going to punish this individual. Even if this person were a believer, but his soul was in the state of sin, you would say that his PERFECT CHARITY could not save him. We answered this way back at the Council of Trent. No need to rehash your harsh belief.

peace

 

[Mannyfit75]

No it is not. I had to disagree. Do you claim an unbeliever can be saved? I merely pointed out that unless the atheist repents moments before he dies, God can save him and judge him according to the things he has done on this life.

I do not hold the Protestant position. I think it is pretty clear, that you are ignoring the mere fact that the atheist rejects God completely. How can you claim an atheist through good works can be saved?

When Jesus clearly states that we must love God with all our heart? Does this atheist love God? He doesn’t. He rejected God period. Suppose the atheist is a former Catholic and is convince by modern science that God is just man’s invention. Well, we know as Catholics, the Church is the pillar and bulwark of truth. For a Catholic to reject truth and fully consent it, acknowledge it, and yes know it is grave. It becomes mortal. Denying God is the sin against the first commandment. Unless this atheist rebuke his claims and accept God as his creator, and repents. He cannot be saved.

It is the mere fact that you deny or avoid the atheist rejects God is the problem I find inconsistent with Church teachings. Brother, you need to reconsider what you are claiming here. A man by himself by mere good words cannot be saved. It is God’s grace that saves. Through his graces, he can be moved to do good, and be even converted and return to his Father, who is in heaven.

 

[mgrfin]

No it is not. I had to disagree. Do you claim an unbeliever can be saved?

How can you claim an atheist through good works can be saved?

When Jesus clearly states that we must love God with all our heart? Does this atheist love God? .

Please try to grasp this notion: PERFECT CHARITY does not operate in a vacuum. Of necessity, it must bring with it PERFECT FAITH, PERFECT HOPE, and the perfection of the moral virtues.

This disbeliever now has FAITH. Please grasp the notion. PERFECT CHARITY CANNOT EXIST IN MAN’S SOUL WITHOUT PERFECT FAITH WITH IT.

This disbeliever becomes a believer - that’s what PERFECT CHARITY does for him. It brings PERFECT FAITH.

You act as though PERFECT FAITH and atheism coexist? That is contradictory and impossible. Yes, the athetist, the notion which you insisted in the example btw, is no longer an atheist. PERFECT CHARITY has saved him, and made him a believer.

peace

 

[Mannyfit75]

Please try to grasp this notion: PERFECT CHARITY does not operate in a vacuum. Of necessity, it must bring with it PERFECT FAITH, PERFECT HOPE, and the perfection of the moral virtues.

This disbeliever now has FAITH. Please grasp the notion. PERFECT CHARITY CANNOT EXIST IN MAN’S SOULD WITHOUT PERFECT FAITH WITH IT.

This disbeliever becomes a believer - that’s what PERFECT CHARITY does for him. It brings PERFECT FAITH.

You act as though PERFECT FAITH and atheism coexist? That is contradictory and impossible.

peace

Faith in what? Himself? I remember Fr. Corapi that we cannot put faith in ourselves, or anybody. We put our faith in God. I hardly think atheist would fit this. Rejecting God is grave matter, and when a person fully consent to it, and acknowledge it is a mortal sin. That meants all conditions to make sin mortal.

 

[mgrfin]

Faith in what? Himself? I remember Fr. Corapi that we cannot put faith in ourselves, or anybody. We put our faith in God. I hardly think atheist would fit this. Rejecting God is grave matter, and when a person fully consent to it, and acknowledge it is a mortal sin. That meants all conditions to make sin mortal.

Faith in what? Himself? Absolutely not. You introduce notions which are not in our example. Who ever said this individual had faith in himself.

Please respond to my summary, without introducing extrinsic elements which are not part of the discussion. His faith is better than mine and yours - it is PERFECT FAITH. His charity is better than mine and yours - it is PERFECT CHARITY.

Grasp the notion, this individual has received the reward promised by Jesus Christ: “No greater love than this, a man lays down his life for his friend.” The object of his love is God, and it is perfectly fulfilled. Instead of the reward promised him, you want to send him to hell, with his PERFECT CHARITY, PERFECT FAITH, PERFECT HOPE? I think not.

peace

 

[Mannyfit75]

Grasp the notion, this individual has received the reward promised by Jesus Christ: “No greater love than this, a man lays down his life for his friend.” The object of his love is God, and it is perfectly fulfilled.

peace

How can his object of his love be God when he denies God himself? It doesn’t make sense, mgrfin. Apart from God, man cannot be saved.

 

[mgrfin]

How can his object of his love be God when he denies God himself? It doesn’t make sense, mgrfin. Apart from God, man cannot be saved.

You are denying that the object of PERFECT CHARITY is God?

Do I have to respond to that?

peace

 

[Mannyfit75]

You are denying that the object of PERFECT CHARITY is God?

Do I have to respond to that?

peace

I’m saying the atheist doesn’t believe in God. How would you know he is focus on God when he himself denies his creator?

 

[mgrfin]

You are denying that the object of PERFECT CHARITY is God?

Do I have to respond to that?

Charity is defined as" the virtue by which we love God above all things for His own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God. God is the object of the virtue of charity, by definition.

Our Good Samaritan loved his neighbor for the love of God, and he did this perfectly. Faith is inseparable from perfect charity.
peace

 

[Mannyfit75]

Do I have to respond to that?

Charity is defined as" the virtue by which we love God above all things for His own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God. God is the object of the virtue of charity, by definition.

The would make sense if the man believes in God.

Our Good Samaritan loved his neighbor for the love of God, and he did this perfectly. Faith is inseparable from perfect charity.
peace

Samaritans believe in God, atheists do not.

 

[Ginger2]

The “Wrong” is right!

You have taken yourself out of the equation, Ginger. Good deeds to you before justification are sins.

The all-Good God is, according to your Protestant beliefs, going to punish this individual. Even if this person were a believer, but his soul was in the state of sin, you would say that his PERFECT CHARITY could not save him. We answered this way back at the Council of Trent. No need to rehash your harsh belief.

peace

mgrfin, you are clueless as to what I believe. You continually accuse me of believing things I do not, nor have I ever believed.

I left this thread earlier so that Keikiolu and I could have a private discussion on this Topic without your contributions that I find so disruptive.

Keikiolu and I talked thru this topic and realized that we both agreed. Keikiolu is Catholic, Mannyfit75 is Catholic.

We are all on the same page. Is it possible for you to consider that you might have misunderstood the teachings of the Catholic Church in this one instance?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Here is an deeper understanding concerning Atheist. I posted this question to Ask an Apologist.

Can an atheists be saved? . The Apologist quotes the Second Vatican Council Document, GAUDIUM ET SPES.

I’m looking over the document right now.

 

[mgrfin]

The would make sense if the man believes in God.

Samaritans believe in God, atheists do not.

You are not listening. You are giving off that "faith only’’ belief.

PERFECT CHARITY BRINGS PERFECT FAITH WITH IT.

Please, stop repeating yourself. Answer me this: don’t you see that PERFECT FAITH must accompany PERFECT CHARITY?

You are putting forth Lutheran theology. No place for a Catholic.

peace

 

[mgrfin]

Here is an deeper understanding concerning Atheist. I posted this question to Ask an Apologist.

Can an atheists be saved? . The Apologist quotes the Second Vatican Council Document, GAUDIUM ET SPES.

I’m looking over the document right now.

I don’t have to read it. I know the answer. An athetist, if he persists, cannot be saved.

BUT THAT IS NOT THE QUESTION.

Can PERFECT CHARITY EXIST WITHOUT PERFECT FAITH. That is the question. An undoubtedly, if our saving man has PERFECT CHARITY, he has PERFECT FAITH.

I’m going to say you continue to put forth this ‘faith only’ routine of Martin Luther.

Please answer me:

CAN PERFECT CHARITY EXIST WITHOUT PERFECT FAITH?

PEACE

 

[Mannyfit75]

I don’t have to read it. I know the answer. An athetist, if he persists, cannot be saved.

BUT THAT IS NOT THE QUESTION.

Can PERFECT CHARITY EXIST WITHOUT PERFECT FAITH. That is the question. An undoubtedly, if our saving man has PERFECT CHARITY, he has PERFECT FAITH.

I’m going to say you continue to put forth this ‘faith only’ routine of Martin Luther.

Please answer me:

CAN PERFECT CHARITY EXIST WITHOUT PERFECT FAITH?

PEACE

GAUDIUM ET SPES:

The remedy which must be applied to atheism, however, is to be sought in a proper presentation of the Church’s teaching as well as in the integral life of the Church and her members. For it is the function of the Church, led by the Holy Spirit Who renews and purifies her ceaselessly,(17) to make God the Father and His Incarnate Son present and in a sense visible. This result is achieved chiefly by the witness of a living and mature faith, namely, one trained to see difficulties clearly and to master them. Many martyrs have given luminous witness to this faith and continue to do so. This faith needs to prove its fruitfulness by penetrating the believer’s entire life, including its worldly dimensions, and by activating him toward justice and love, especially regarding the needy. What does the most reveal God’s presence, however, is the brotherly charity of the faithful who are united in spirit as they work together for the faith of the Gospel(18) and who prove themselves a sign of unity.

While rejecting atheism, root and branch, the Church sincerely professes that all men, believers and unbelievers alike, ought to work for the rightful betterment of this world in which all alike live; such an ideal cannot be realized, however, apart from sincere and prudent dialogue. Hence the Church protests against the distinction which some state authorities make between believers and unbelievers, with prejudice to the fundamental rights of the human person. The Church calls for the active liberty of believers to build up in this world God’s temple too. She courteously invites atheists to examine the Gospel of Christ with an open mind.

Above all the Church known that her message is in harmony with the most secret desires of the human heart when she champions the dignity of the human vocation, restoring hope to those who have already despaired of anything higher than their present lot. Far from diminishing man, her message brings to his development light, life and freedom. Apart from this message nothing will avail to fill up the heart of man: “Thou hast made us for Thyself,” O Lord, “and our hearts are restless till they rest in Thee.”(19)

1. The truth is that only in the mystery of the incarnate Word does the mystery of man take on light. For Adam, the first man, was a figure of Him Who was to come,(20) namely Christ the Lord. Christ, the final Adam, by the revelation of the mystery of the Father and His love, fully reveals man to man himself and makes his supreme calling clear. It is not surprising, then, that in Him all the aforementioned truths find their root and attain their crown.

He Who is “the image of the invisible God” (Col. 1:15),(21) is Himself the perfect man. To the sons of Adam He restores the divine likeness which had been disfigured from the first sin onward. Since human nature as He assumed it was not annulled,(22) by that very fact it has been raised up to a divine dignity in our respect too. For by His incarnation the Son of God has united Himself in some fashion with every man. He worked with human hands, He thought with a human mind, acted by human choice(23) and loved with a human heart. Born of the Virgin Mary, He has truly been made one of us, like us in all things except sin.(24)