Purgation after final judgement

[mgrfin]

Answer this question then.

Does an atheist deny God completely? You posted:

“Above all things have charity, which is the bond of perfection’ because it binds, as it were, all the other virtues together in perfect unity (St. Thomas). God is the reason for our loving our neighbor out of charity.

This would make sense if the atheist recants his atheistic views and accept God as his creator. I know we are going around in circle here, mr. I just don’t buy into it.

Through no fault of their own applies clearly to those to who have common belief in a creator, like Muslims, Jews, Protestants, etc… but un-believers? Those who deny the creator? God, the creator the source of all grace?

Grasp this: PERFECT CHARITY supplies and perfects all the other virtues making them perfect, like FAITH, like HOPE.

If our Good Samaritan dies in the process of saving the life of another it is PERFECT CHARITY.

The Good Samaritan in the Gospels never performed such a perfect act. He performed good deeds of kindness and charity, but not PERFECT CHARITY.

PEACE

ps I going to see the Kings play the Ducks with my son, so I’m leaving for now. If you leave comments, I’ll respond later.

 

[mgrfin]

It really does depends on the situation of the atheist. We are only going through possible what if scenarios.

Of course, he is sent the Grace by the Spirit, and he cooperates with it.

You are hedging your bets, saying ‘we don’t really know’. Of course we don’t really know. I quoted St. Paul, St. Thomas, and other Doctors of the Church. You can’t deny what I’ve said.

peace

 

[Ginger2]

Ginger,

Citing people on this site with blasphemy is very dangerous, and against the forum rules.

Also, telling Catholics that they don’t know what they are talking about is also against forum rules.

She stands with me because she stands for the Catholic position.
I have never heard you state a 'Catholic position". That is not part of your agenda.

peace

As a Christian it is a responsibility to correct other Christian when they believe false doctrine. I am not trying to convince you to believe a Protestant doctrine, but to believe what your Catholic faith dictates. You cannot go to heaven while still rejecting God.

 

[Ginger2]

I am not aware of any dogmatic statements that mention salvation through a perfect act of charity but if I recall properly, a perfect act of charity is not something we can do on our own, but rather, moved by the Spirit, can accomplish, provided, we choose, in our free will.

I guess, the better question is, to qualify this hypothetical situation, is, will the Holy Spirit grant an act of perfect charity to him who denies Him? That I don’t know.

I guess that is where God’s ability to know a person’s heart comes in.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Grasp this: PERFECT CHARITY supplies and perfects all the other virtues making them perfect, like FAITH, like HOPE.

If our Good Samaritan dies in the process of saving the life of another it is PERFECT CHARITY.

The Good Samaritan in the Gospels never performed such a perfect act. He performed good deeds of kindness and charity, but not PERFECT CHARITY.

PEACE

ps I going to see the Kings play the Ducks with my son, so I’m leaving for now. If you leave comments, I’ll respond later.

You still have not answer the question. You are just avoiding it.

The Samaritan was also a believer in God. An Atheist doesn’t. I’m still not convince mr.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Of course, he is sent the Grace by the Spirit, and he cooperates with it.

You are hedging your bets, saying ‘we don’t really know’. Of course we don’t really know. I quoted St. Paul, St. Thomas, and other Doctors of the Church. You can’t deny what I’ve said.

peace

I just don’t believe a person who knowingly, acknowledging it, and out of his own free will reject God completely by denying our Creator exist can attain heaven. The Scripture makes it clear, “with man everything is possible, with God all things are possible.”

 

[HailMary]

As a Christian it is a responsibility to correct other Christian when they believe false doctrine.

true, but what happens when there are many conflicting opinions like in modern day protestantism (ie: “gay marriage”, contraception (all churches before 1930 agreed this was immorral btw), abortion, baptism, confession)?

In Matthew 18:15-18 we read that if a person sins against you we should tell him his fault. But, if he will not hear you, take one or more persons to establish every word “if he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector ” [note the emphasis on the church]. Jesus than reiterates what He told Peter, but this time He is addressing it to the disciples as a whole, those who would become ministers [Bishops and priests] of His One, Holy, catholic [universal], and Apostolic Church. And Yes, Judas was included at that instance so do not be scandalized when priests fall from grace for there will be those priests those that do commit horrible sins just as Judas did.

www.members.cox.net/humurabi/Catholic_Apologia.pdf

 

[Ginger2]

true, but what happens when there are many conflicting opinions like in modern day protestantism (ie: “gay marriage”, contraception (all churches before 1930 agreed this was immorral btw), abortion, baptism, confession)?

www.members.cox.net/humurabi/Catholic_Apologia.pdf

The Scriptures tell us this will happen. When it does we correct them - if they listen we rejoice. If not we pray for them.

I have witnessed the truth to homosexuals and atheists. Some come around and understand, others don’t.

But as long as we are faithful to God’s word we are innocent. If we cater to misplaced compassion then their blood is on our hands.

 

[Mannyfit75]

The Scriptures tell us this will happen. When it does we correct them - if they listen we rejoice. If not we pray for them.

I have witnessed the truth to homosexuals and atheists. Some come around and understand, others don’t.

But as long as we are faithful to God’s word we are innocent. If we cater to misplaced compassion then their blood is on our hands.

I think Ginger has a point. She’s at least no that anyone who denies God cannot be save unless they repent

 

[mgrfin]

As a Christian it is a responsibility to correct other Christian when they believe false doctrine. I am not trying to convince you to believe a Protestant doctrine, but to believe what your Catholic faith dictates. You cannot go to heaven while still rejecting God.

I have rejecfed God?

How did you arrive at that.

A protestant trying to convince me to believe what the Church teaches. I’m already there.

If I were to have to correct you in your disbelief of Catholic doctrine, I would never get to a hockey game.

peace

 

[mgrfin]

The Scriptures tell us this will happen. When it does we correct them - if they listen we rejoice. If not we pray for them.

I have witnessed the truth to homosexuals and atheists. Some come around and understand, others don’t.

But as long as we are faithful to God’s word we are innocent. If we cater to misplaced compassion then their blood is on our hands.

Ginger,

Let’s stay on topic.

I have quoted St. Paul. I have quoted St. Thomas Aquinas. I have quoted St. Ephraem. I have quoted Jesus Christ. I have presented Catholic doctrine.

It is just another doctrine you don’t have to believe as a Protestant.

You have no doctrinal base to teach from except the Roman Catholic Church. Your faith is based on ours.

Attack the theological reasoning I have presented saying that the Perfect Charity exists in company with the other virtues. The other virtues cannot be there unless perfect charity is.

You condemn this perfect good samaritan to hell. What kind of religion are you preaching. It certainly isn’t Christianity.

Peace

 

[ajk19]

I have rejecfed God?

How did you arrive at that.

With all due respect, that is not what Ginger was implying best I can tell. She was simply arguing what you would seem to be saying, that an atheist could go to Heaven despite rejecting God given the proper circumstances (giving their life for another in this case).

 

[Ginger2]

Ginger,
…You condemn this perfect good samaritan to hell. What kind of religion are you preaching. It certainly isn’t Christianity.

Let’s review what has been said…
"Ginger2:

mgrfin are you saying that an atheist can get to heaven without Jesus, but simply by doing one great “good” deed?

Absolutely.

…It is an act of perfect charity. …God bless the man, and I am sure, certainly sure, He does.

You claim to know the mind of God. You assert that Jesus is not necessary for salvation.

I think I am more Catholic than you, mgrfin.

Father Russel will be happy when I tell him - he likes to tell me I’m still Catholic at heart. (he’s such a sweet man)

 

[Ginger2]

With all due respect, that is not what Ginger was implying best I can tell. She was simply arguing what you would seem to be saying, that an atheist could go to Heaven despite rejecting God given the proper circumstances (giving their life for another in this case).

You are correct.

 

[mgrfin]

With all due respect, that is not what Ginger was implying best I can tell. She was simply arguing what you would seem to be saying, that an atheist could go to Heaven despite rejecting God given the proper circumstances (giving their life for another in this case).

By his PERFECT ACT OF CHARITY he is not any longer rejecting God.

I’ll say this again. Perfect Charity does not exist alone. It brings with it perfect faith, perfect hope.

peace

 

[mgrfin]

You still have not answer the question. You are just avoiding it.

The Samaritan was also a believer in God. An Atheist doesn’t. I’m still not convince mr.

His PERFECT ACT OF CHARITY comes with PERFECT FAITH, and PERFECT HOPE, etc. I can assume he is no longer an athetist after he lays down his life for his friend.

peace

 

[mgrfin]

It really does depends on the situation of the atheist. We are only going through possible what if scenarios.

Of Course, of course, according to the Council of Trent. Any pious act comes from the movement of actual grace within us. We can accept and cooperate, or we can reject it.

peace

 

[mgrfin]

As a Christian it is a responsibility to correct other Christian when they believe false doctrine. I am not trying to convince you to believe a Protestant doctrine, but to believe what your Catholic faith dictates. You cannot go to heaven while still rejecting God.

Sorry, Ginger, your disbelief rules you out as someone to tell me what is Catholic faith and what is not. You practice what we consider as heretical.

According to your Protestant faith, any good deed performed before justification, even under the influence by actual grace, is sinful. This is contrary to the canons of the Council of Trent.

Please, you are not in a position to convince me of your Protestant beliefs.

peace

 

[mgrfin]

It really does depends on the situation of the atheist. We are only going through possible what if scenarios.

"I am not aware of any dogmatic statments that mention salvation through a perfect act of charity>

Jesus said: “No greater love does a man have than to lay down his life for his friend”.

Is that dogmatic enough?

peace

 

[mgrfin]

Let’s review what has been said…

You claim to know the mind of God. You assert that Jesus is not necessary for salvation.

I think I am more Catholic than you, mgrfin.

Father Russel will be happy when I tell him - he likes to tell me I’m still Catholic at heart. (he’s such a sweet man)

Fr. Russel doesn’t know you very well.

On the contrary, all salvation comes through the merits of Jesus Christ. It is He I quote as my source.

More Catholic than I? Protestant Ginger! Surely you jest.

peace