Purgation after final judgement

[Mannyfit75]

I’ll jump in here with my answer regarding dying as a result of an act of perfect charity, whether of an athetist, or a person in serious sin.

Our man runs into a burning building to save the life of a child, and in do so, he loses his life. Not that unheard of.

St. Thomas argued that St. Ambrose commenting on Luke maintained that all virtues are connected and interlocked such that he who has one has all. Perfect charity therefore chases out all deficiencies, whether lack of faith, or other moral fault.

You cannot have perfect charity in your soul and have the sin of immorality. They cannot coexist. Perfect charity drives out all sin.

peace

However, the atheist meets all the three condition of mortal sin.

1. Grave Matter: He rejects the existence of God.
2. Full Consent: Knowing that this is a grave sin, he fully consent that he rejects God, and does it anyways.
3. Full Acknowledgement: He acknowledge that he could not accept that there is God after discerning all the teaching concerning God.

To imply a atheist can be saved. It would be bad to assumed, and adulter, fornicator, murder, can be saved without the need of repentance. I don’t see how your idea of being saved is in lines with the Teaching of the Church. I don’t see it that way. I think the view you present is contrary.

 

[mgrfin]

I have to ask…
I know an atheist who is a fire fighter, and I know that he has saved the life of at least one person while risking his own life.

By your reasoning, he would have gone to heaven if he had died - even tho God knowing his heart knew that he would remain an unrepentant atheist?

Is that what you are saying?

Yes. “No greater love can a man have than to lay his life down for his friend”, per Jesus Christ, by word and example.

peace

 

[Mannyfit75]

Yes. “No greater love can a man have than to lay his life down for his friend”, per Jesus Christ, by word and example.

peace

Does this man rejects God fully, knowing it, acknowledging it, and consenting it?

 

[Ginger2]

Yes. “No greater love can a man have than to lay his life down for his friend”, per Jesus Christ, by word and example.peace

Thank you mgrfin. Have a nice day.

 

[mgrfin]

Does this man rejects God fully, knowing it, acknowledging it, and consenting it?

Perfect charity drives out any imperfection.

Over and above this, how unjust God would be not to reward such an individual who had such perfect love for his fellow man?

“What must I do to be saved?”, the man asked Jesus. And Jesus said, “Love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, thy whole soul, and thy whole mind. And the second command, is to love your neighbor as yourself.”

peace

 

[Mannyfit75]

Perfect charity drives out any imperfection.

Over and above this, how unjust God would be not to reward such an individual who had such perfect love for his fellow man?

“What must I do to be saved?”, the man asked Jesus. And Jesus said, “Love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, thy whole soul, and thy whole mind. And the second command, is to love your neighbor as yourself.”

peace

There is a problem with that. An Atheist doesn’t believe in God. It would make sense with that commandment if he did. How can he love God if he rejects God?

You take God out of the equation, you can’t be saved. Remember the Catechism states that God created man so that man can:

1. Seek Him.
2. Know Him.
3. Love Him.
4. Serve Him, for all eternity.

By man alone, he cannot saved himself. With God, he can be saved. He has to seek God, know him, love him and serve him.

 

[mgrfin]

There is a problem with that. An Atheist doesn’t believe in God. It would make sense with that commandment if he did. How can he love God if he rejects God?

You take God out of the equation, you can’t be saved. Remember the Catechism states that God created man so that man can:

1. Seek Him.
2. Know Him.
3. Love Him.
4. Serve Him, for all eternity.

By man alone, he cannot saved himself. With God, he can be saved. He has to seek God, know him, love him and serve him.

And I ask you, how can he reject God if he loves his neighbor perfectly.

peace

 

[Mannyfit75]

And I ask you, how can he reject God if he loves his neighbor perfectly.

peace

Answer my the question first. Does he acknowledge God? Remember that is the first commandment. “You shall love your God, with all your heart.”

Your running pretty close to a heresy called Pelagianism, or Semi-Pelagianism. Don’t fall into that trap.

Pelagianism is a theological theory named after Pelagius. It is the belief that original sin did not taint human nature (which, being created from God, was divine), and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without Divine aid. Thus, Adam’s sin was “to set a bad example” for his progeny, but his actions did not have the other consequences imputed to Original Sin. Pelagianism views the role of Jesus as “setting a good example” for the rest of humanity (thus counteracting Adam’s bad example). In short, humanity has full control, and thus full responsibility, for its own salvation in addition to full responsibility for every sin (the latter insisted upon by both proponents and opponents of Pelagianism). According to Pelagian doctrine, because humanity does not require God’s grace for salvation (beyond the creation of will),[1] Jesus’ execution is therefore devoid of the redemptive quality ascribed to it by orthodox Christian theology.

Semi-Pelagianism a Christian theological understanding about salvation; that is, how humanity and God are restored to a right relationship. The Semi-Pelagian teaching is derived from the earlier Pelagian teaching about salvation (see below), and teaches that it is necessary for humans to make the first step toward God and then God will complete salvation.

I also like to add you can’t skip commandment, "You shall love your God with all your heart, with all your mind, and jump to “You shall love your neighbor as you love yourself.”

There is a reason why Jesus said, “You shall love your God with all your heart, etc, etc.” first over neighbor.

 

[mgrfin]

Answer my the question first. Does he acknowledge God? Remember that is the first commandment. “You shall love your God, with all your heart.”

Your running pretty close to a heresy called Pelagianism, or Semi-Pelagianism. Don’t fall into that trap.

Pelagianism is a theological theory named after Pelagius. It is the belief that original sin did not taint human nature (which, being created from God, was divine), and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without Divine aid. Thus, Adam’s sin was “to set a bad example” for his progeny, but his actions did not have the other consequences imputed to Original Sin. Pelagianism views the role of Jesus as “setting a good example” for the rest of humanity (thus counteracting Adam’s bad example). In short, humanity has full control, and thus full responsibility, for its own salvation in addition to full responsibility for every sin (the latter insisted upon by both proponents and opponents of Pelagianism). According to Pelagian doctrine, because humanity does not require God’s grace for salvation (beyond the creation of will),[1] Jesus’ execution is therefore devoid of the redemptive quality ascribed to it by orthodox Christian theology.

Semi-Pelagianism a Christian theological understanding about salvation; that is, how humanity and God are restored to a right relationship. The Semi-Pelagian teaching is derived from the earlier Pelagian teaching about salvation (see below), and teaches that it is necessary for humans to make the first step toward God and then God will complete salvation.

I also like to add you can’t skip commandment, "You shall love your God with all your heart, with all your mind, and jump to “You shall love your neighbor as you love yourself.”

There is a reason why Jesus said, “You shall love your God with all your heart, etc, etc.” first over neighbor.

Of course, he acknowledges, at which point I don’t know.

I do not believe I come even close to heresy. Also, let’s not abuse forum rules by calling a practicing Catholic a heretic.

You are telling all of us that his perfect act of charity for his neighbor is fitting of eternal damnation?

I refer to St. Thomas Aquinas:
“Therefore the perfection of the Christian life consists radically in charity. God is the reason for our loving our neighbor out of charity.”

I have obliged by answering your question first. Now, please respond to my question.

Peace

 

[Mannyfit75]

Of course, he acknowledges, at which point I don’t know.

I do not believe I come even close to heresy. Also, let’s not abuse forum rules by calling a practicing Catholic a heretic.

I didn’t call you a heretic. I just saying you views on this issue is close to the Pelagianism. I would not even go that deep. I merely warm you with professing doctrine contrary to the teachings of the Magisterium.

You are telling all of us that his perfect act of charity for his neighbor is fitting of eternal damnation?

Let me put it this way, if he rejects God and does good works. Yes, he would be cast into the fires of hell… If he on the other hand acknowledge the existence of God, and replies on the Lord’s special graces. Yes, he will be saved.

I refer to St. Thomas Aquinas:
“Therefore the perfection of the Christian life consists radically in charity. God is the reason for our loving our neighbor out of charity.”

Peace

Again you point out God. Unfortunately, Atheist deny God. Do you even know what an atheist believes in?

Correct if I am wrong, doesn’t an atheist denies God?

 

[mgrfin]

Let me put it this way, if our he rejects God and does good works. Yes, he would be cast into the fires of hell… If he on the other hand acknowledge the existence of God, and replies on the Lord’s special graces. Yes, he will be saved.

Again you point out God. Unfortunately, Atheist deny God. Do you even know what an atheist believes in?

Correct if I am wrong, doesn’t an atheist denies God?

I understand what atheism is, as well as upholding the Magisterium of the Church. I also understand Pelagianism. I did not posit the issue of grace here in this post, since you cannot combine the whole of the Faith in one answer.

You added the element of atheism to this question. You completely missed the point. According to St. Thomas, it is charity that unites us to God, who is the end of the human mind, since ‘he that abides in charity abides in God and God in him’. Therefore the perfection of the Christian life consists radically in charity – not faith, not hope, but charity.

St. Paul tells us: “Above all things have charity, which is the bond of perfection’ because it binds, as it were, all the other virtues together in perfect unity (St. Thomas). God is the reason for our loving our neighbor out of charity.

Ambrose commenting maintained that all virtues are connected and interlocked such that he who has one has all. St. Gregory taught that if one virtue could be had without the others, either it is not a virtue, or it is not perfect. Our Good Samatarian has perfect charity, shown by his laying down his life for his neighbor.

Our good man merits heaven where he shares Charity with the Saints. Charity, is LOVE, and it is this virtue which he possesses, and which supplies for all of the others at the moment of his death.

peace

 

[Mannyfit75]

I understand what atheism is, as well as upholding the Magisterium of the Church. I also understand Pelagianism. I did not posit the issue of grace here in this post, since you cannot combine the whole of the Faith in one answer.

You added the element of atheism to this question. You completely missed the point. According to St. Thomas, it is charity that unites us to God, who is the end of the human mind, since ‘he that abides in charity abides in God and God in him’. Therefore the perfection of the Christian life consists radically in charity – not faith, not hope, but charity.

St. Paul tells us: “Above all things have charity, which is the bond of perfection’ because it binds, as it were, all the other virtues together in perfect unity (St. Thomas). God is the reason for our loving our neighbor out of charity.

Ambrose commenting maintained that all virtues are connected and interlocked such that he who has one has all. St. Gregory taught that if one virtue could be had without the others, either it is not a virtue, or it is not perfect. Our Good Samatarian has perfect charity, shown by his laying down his life for his neighbor.

Our good man merits heaven where he shares Charity with the Saints. Charity, is LOVE, and it is this virtue which he possesses, and which supplies for all of the others at the moment of his death.

peace

What is if there is no God in the atheist’s charity? What then? You** are missing the point what an atheist is and what he believes**. That is why I don’t agree with your opinions. An atheist cannot be saved because he denies the very existence of God. Even if he acts out of charity for the love of neighbor, or even saves a life. He does these good deeds, but still denies God period; Rejects him fully, willing, and knowingly. Unless an atheist ceases to be what he is, and turns to God himself, he cannot be saved. God will give him grace to help him move to seek out the Lord, and please him.

 

[Ginger2]

I think post #98 says it all:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginger2 View Post
I have to ask…
I know an atheist who is a fire fighter, and I know that he has saved the life of at least one person while risking his own life.

By your reasoning, he would have gone to heaven if he had died - even tho God knowing his heart knew that he would remain an unrepentant atheist?

Is that what you are saying?

Yes. “No greater love can a man have than to lay his life down for his friend”, per Jesus Christ, by word and example.

 

[mgrfin]

What is if there is no God in the atheist’s charity? What then? You** are missing the point what an atheist is and what he believes**. That is why I don’t agree with your opinions. An atheist cannot be saved because he denies the very existence of God. Even if he acts out of charity for the love of neighbor, or even saves a life. He does these good deeds, but still denies God period; Rejects him fully, willing, and knowingly. Unless an atheist ceases to be what he is, and turns to God himself, he cannot be saved. God will give him grace to help him move to seek out the Lord, and please him.

Generally, Protestants hold that any good act performed before sanctification is sinful. This seems to be where you stand. They also believe that the only sin since the salvific death of Jesus is loss of faith. I judge all sin as essentially the same. The perfect act of charity removes all sin, and makes up for any other lack of virtue, per what I have said already.

I have quoted St. Paul, St. Thomas Aquinas, St.Ambrose, St. Ephraem, and the words and examples of Jesus Christ himself.

For your part, you have quoted nobody to support your argument. You seem to fail to understand that a perfect virtue, in this case charity, cannot exist in a vacuum. It carries with it all the other virtues, faith, hope, the moral virtues, etc.

Perfect charity supplies for lack of faith (athesism, you call it), and the man now has this perfect virtue of faith as well.

I can’t do any more. You are going to have to seek the advice of a dogmatic theologian for help. Maybe there is one on line to assist you.

God Bless.

peace

 

[Mannyfit75]

Generally, Protestants hold that any good act performed before sanctification is sinful. This seems to be where you stand.

I have quoted St. Paul, St. Thomas Aquinas, St.Ambrose, St. Ephraem, and the words and examples of Jesus Christ himself.

I can’t do any more. You are going to have to seek the advice of a dogmatic theologian for help. Maybe there is one on line to assist you.

God Bless.

peace

You did. I also noted from your quote when a man ask Jesus. Lord, what must I do to be saved?

Jesus answered. “You shall love the Lord your God, with all your heart, with all your mind. The second is this, love your neighbor as you love yourself.”

Tell me does an atheist love God? Knowing the fact that this atheist denies God?

 

[Ginger2]

The perfect act of charity removes all sin, and makes up for any other lack of virtue, per what I have said already.

Perfect charity supplies for lack of faith (athesism, you call it), and the man now has this perfect virtue of faith as well.

So, you saying that my atheist friend who saved a life while risking his own life would have gone straight to heaven if he had died. Correct?

But, since he remains atheist, he would go straight to hell if he died from a heart attach when he was about to leave the scene of the fire?

I am just wondering how long this state of “perfect virtue of faith” lasts. Since he was atheist before and remained atheist after. What’s the cut-off point?

 

[Knight4God]

CANON 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism – if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, “And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6). And again, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers.

CANON 7. If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, “For apart from me you can do nothing” (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, “Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God” (2 Cor. 3:5).

~From the Council of Orange

Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. “Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’” CCC121

…To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.” CCC 1033

The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man. CCC1989

God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire: CCC2002

All this sounds very much to me like the Catholic Church does officially teach that an unbeliever, even if he has performed many acts of love for other people, and given his life as a firefighter (one example) is destined to hell because he was never united to love for God via faith, ie he never repented. The Catechism is almost stronger on this then the Council of Orange that faith is required, not just acts of love.

 

[mgrfin]

So, you saying that my atheist friend who saved a life while risking his own life would have gone straight to heaven if he had died. Correct?

But, since he remains atheist, he would go straight to hell if he died from a heart attach when he was about to leave the scene of the fire?

I am just wondering how long this state of “perfect virtue of faith” lasts. Since he was atheist before and remained atheist after. What’s the cut-off point?

Well, if he had this perfect act of charity but did not lose his life in the fire, his charity lasts until he sins again - just like us. The virtue of charity, and all the other virtues, living faith and hope, etc., leaves the soul with serious sin.

If our good samaritan dies of a heart attack, heaven is his, so long as he has not committed serious sin to drive God from his soul.

So it requires a positve (negative) act of rebellion before his soul would fall into this state.

peace

 

[Mannyfit75]

CANON 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism – if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, “And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6). And again, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers.

CANON 7. If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, “For apart from me you can do nothing” (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, “Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God” (2 Cor. 3:5).

~From the Council of Orange

Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. “Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’” CCC121

…To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.” CCC 1033

The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man. CCC1989

God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire: CCC2002

All this sounds very much to me like the Catholic Church does officially teach that an unbeliever, even if he has performed many acts of love for other people, and given his life as a firefighter (one example) is destined to hell because he was never united to love for God via faith, ie he never repented. The Catechism is almost stronger on this then the Council of Orange that faith is required, not just acts of love.

Truth it only proves that if you have no faith in God. You can’t be saved period. Atheist denies the existence of God, therefore they cannot be saved, unless he repents and ceases to be an atheist, or if he repented in his last few moments of his life to God, then only then can he be saved.

 

[mgrfin]

CANON 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism – if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, “And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6). And again, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers.

CANON 7. If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, “For apart from me you can do nothing” (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, “Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God” (2 Cor. 3:5).

~From the Council of Orange

Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. “Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’” CCC121

…To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.” CCC 1033

The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man. CCC1989

God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire: CCC2002

All this sounds very much to me like the Catholic Church does officially teach that an unbeliever, even if he has performed many acts of love for other people, and given his life as a firefighter (one example) is destined to hell because he was never united to love for God via faith, ie he never repented. The Catechism is almost stronger on this then the Council of Orange that faith is required, not just acts of love.

Pray tell, who ever said that actual grace and sanctifying grace were not at work, in the soul of the justified man.

We can have no hope of performing any good act unless we are moved to do so by God’s actual grace in our soul, and cooperating with that grace.

You have not been listening. Perfect charity cannot exist in a vacuum. If the virtue is perfect, it brings with it all the other virtues with it, Faith, Hope, all the moral virtues, etc.

The act of charity we are talking about is PERFECT CHARITY. It is not the case of doing some small acts of kindness. We are certainly relying on perfection.You cannot perfectly love your neighbor without loving God, and loving him perfectly.

Giving up your life for another is not ‘doing a few kind acts’. We are talking about the perfect sacrifice, similar to the death of Jesus on the Cross for our sins. PERFECT CHARITY.

“No greater love than this no man has than to lay down his life for another”. Please read and understand those words of Jesus Christ.

peace