Purgation after final judgement

[Ginger2]

The healed didn’t have to be “fully faithful believers”, only humble enough to truly want healing from THE power that could do so.

Mat 13:58 And he (Jesus) did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:Quote:

Originally Posted by Ginger2 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif

*2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, *

God is all-powerful. But He has created other beings with certain amounts of power also.

Not all so-called miracles are from God. True miracles bear good fruit - eternal rewards. “Miracles” not from God are not accompanied by everlasting benefits.

Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Lazarus, after being raised up by Jesus, died eventually.

Since he died again, does that make Jesus “from the devil”…?

​

What in the world are you talking about?

That was in response to this statement of yours (above):

“True miracles bear good fruit - eternal rewards.”

Lazarus’ raising was not “eternal”. It was temporary.

Just a rebuttal that God gives ONLY “eternal rewards”.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*The healed were healed by Jesus, by His name, spoken by unbelievers.

There apparently was enough faith in the healed in the name “Jesus” to allow them to be humble enough to accept Jesus’ healing power.

The healed didn’t have to be “fully faithful believers”, only humble enough to truly want healing from THE power that could do so.*

FIRST,
Mat 17:14-20 ¶ And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a [certain] man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
**Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: **

The disciples couldn’t do the miracles SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE they didn’t believe that they were worthy of doing them.

They actively sabotaged what they COULD have done if they had simply “spoken the formulae” of healing.

Aren’t there other times, in scripture, where the disciples would have liked to have admonished some non-disciples for healing in Jesus’ name, yet the non-disciples DID actually heal in Jesus’ name?

I’m not sure how to find that. Can you help me out with this…? Thanks.

SECOND,
Mat 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but **he that doeth the will of my Father **which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

That actually proves my case.

To say, “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?”, is saying that even those who have not done “the will of Jesus’ Father” DID in fact cast out devils…!

They did so because the “demon” had enough faith in Jesus, as demons WOULD of course, that He could cast them out.

The faith of the “healer” was such that they didn’t sabotage themselves by having scruples that they were doing anything particularly evil. They thought they were buying their way into heaven by SIMPLY doing formulae without understanding what “belief in Jesus” really meant.

THIRD,
Mar 6:5 And he (Jesus) could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed [them].

Jesus DID heal a few sick people there.

"Jesus worked no miracles here: not because He was unable to do so, but as punishment for the unbelief of the townspeople. God wants man to use the grace offered him, so that, by cooperating with grace, he become disposed to recieve further graces. As St. Augustine neatly puts it, “He who made you ithout your own self, will not justify you without yourself.”
(( From Navarre Bible, commentary on Mark-6:5-6 ))

Is your proposition that ONLY “fully faithful believers” can BE healed?

Is your propostion also that ONLY “fully faithful believers” can DO healing?

Thanks in advance for an answer to those questions.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Ginger2]

Keikiolu,

I do not know of any other times, in scripture, where the disciples would have liked to have admonished some non-disciples for healing in Jesus’ name, yet the non-disciples DID actually heal in Jesus’ name?

If anyone else does we would both appreciate seeing the verses.

You’ve lost me on the 2nd point. Are you saying now that the “healing” might have been successful without the healer or the healed person having faith, but instead by the faith of the demon in Christ?

3rd point answers no and no. My point was that no lasting or eternal benefit comes from doing good deeds unless it is done according to the will of God.

As for Lazarus, John 11:4 But when Jesus heard this, He said, “This sickness is not to end in death, but for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified by it.

 

[Ginger2]

Just a rebuttal that God gives ONLY “eternal rewards”.

Ohhh! I understand.

I did not mean that God gives only eternal rewards. I am saying that the miracles He works through believers are accompanied by eternal rewards.

An atheist can dish up soup in a soup kitchen. He has done a good deed. He has fed the hungry one meal.

But, when Christians - true Christians - serve soup to the hungry they are offering a testimony of faith with it. An eternal reward is being offered that humans cannot see or taste or smell. It is thru this testimony, whether spoken or unspoken, that God offers an eternal reward.

That is the difference. Those apart from God, our good deeds offer nothing of eternal value.

 

[mgrfin]

Ohhh! I understand.

I did not mean that God gives only eternal rewards. I am saying that the miracles He works through believers are accompanied by eternal rewards.

An atheist can dish up soup in a soup kitchen. He has done a good deed. He has fed the hungry one meal.

But, when Christians - true Christians - serve soup to the hungry they are offering a testimony of faith with it. An eternal reward is being offered that humans cannot see or taste or smell. It is thru this testimony, whether spoken or unspoken, that God offers an eternal reward.

That is the difference. Those apart from God, our good deeds offer nothing of eternal value.

Llutheran error, of course!

James 1: 22: “Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves”.

Jame 2: 14: “What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? Shall faith be able to save him?”

1 Cor 13: 1; 13: “If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a thikling cymbal”. " And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity".

peace

 

[christcnection1]

Again Ginger, this is an imputed vs. infused righteousness issue.

If we are saved by faith alone, it would not be unreasonable for God to ensure that the words “we are saved by faith alone apart from love, obedience, faithfulness, etc.” to appear in the Bible.

If love is greater than faith, love is therefore necessary for salvation. Our faith is to be worked out with fear and trembling (but completely by His grace) as St. Paul clearly states. He didn’t believe that salvation was a one-time event.

If you have time, I would like to hear your thoughts on my other replied post to you.

Blessings,
JB

 

[mgrfin]

If we are saved by faith alone, it would not be unreasonable for God to ensure that the words “we are saved by faith alone apart from love, obedience, faithfulness, etc.” to appear in the Bible.

Excellent! That thought never occurred to me before.

If it were soooo important, why isn’t it there in God’s words, and even in Sacred Tradition, the Patristic fathers and Doctors of the Church, our saints and martyrs who were doers of the word, and not hearers only.

peace

 

[Keikiolu]

Ohhh! I understand.

I did not mean that God gives only eternal rewards. I am saying that the miracles He works through believers are accompanied by eternal rewards.

…{sni}…

That is the difference. Those apart from God, our good deeds offer nothing of eternal value.

Amen.

Although,… if the nonbeliever is coming from doing what they percieve as a good deed due to “natural law”, then they ARE to some extent displaying “worthy service”.

 

[mgrfin]

Amen.

Although,… if the nonbeliever is coming from doing what they percieve as a good deed due to “natural law”, then they ARE to some extent displaying “worthy service”.

Absolutely. Say an unbeliever runs into a burning building to save a small child, and dies in the process.

What value does this perfect act of charity have for this pagan.

“Greater love no man has than to lay down his life for his friend”.

That is why Jesus went to great extent to tell us the story of the Good Samaritan, who, to his listeners was an unbeliever.

Good works work, and they have merit, sometimes everylasting, eternal merit.

peace

 

[Jerry-Jet]

The scriptures say “Love covereth a multitude of sins”.
A perfect act of charity just like a perfect act of contrition right before death means no purgatory.

That’s why martyrs who die doing the will of God go straight to Heaven!

 

[Ginger2]

Amen.

Although,… if the nonbeliever is coming from doing what they percieve as a good deed due to “natural law”, then they ARE to some extent displaying “worthy service”.

Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Isa 57:12 I will declare thy righteousness, and thy works; for they shall not profit thee. 13 When thou criest, let thy companies deliver thee; but the wind shall carry them all away; vanity shall take [them]: but he that putteth his trust in me shall possess the land, and shall inherit my holy mountain;

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; …

 

[mgrfin]

QUOTE]
Ginger:
You misconstrue the Gospels, and the Old Testament:

Luke 16:15 That verse has nothing to do with ‘good works’, but rather the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, which Jesus condemns:

Ver. 15. Who justify yourselves, &c. But our Lord, detecting their hidden malice, shews that their pretended justice is all hypocrisy. But God knoweth, &c. They justify themselves before men, whom they look upon as despicable, and abandoned sinners, and esteem themselves as not standing in need of giving alms as a remedy of sin; but he who shall lay open the secrets of hearts, sees the base atrocity of that pride which thus blinds them, and swells within their breasts. (Ven. Bede) — Yes, all those exterior actions which appeared great, and which were admired by men, being vitiated with improper motives and sinister designs, are an abomination in the sight of God. (Haydock)
haydock1859.tripod.com/id330.html

In Luke 16: 19-31 Jesus goes on to tell the parable of the rich man, and the beggar Lazarus. The rich man was condemned to hell because he would not feed Lazarus even with the crumbs that fell off his table. Lack of Faith had nothing to do with his punishment, but lack of charity.

Is 57:12 Another misquote. This passage has to do with the Prophet condemning the Jews for their idolatry.

But, you rather should read a little further down to find out what good works God wants and rewards: Is 58: 12-13 “Deal thy bread to the hungry, and bring the needy and the harborless into thy house: when thou shalt see one naked, cover him, and despise not thy own flesh.”
“Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thy health shall speedily arise, and thy justice shall go before thy face, and the glory of the Lord shall gather thee up”.

As someone noted today, if justification by faith only were so important for salvation, how come Jesus never said anything about it? He preached charity and “love thy neighbor”.

peace

 

[Ginger2]

I was talking about non-believers, and how their “good” works have no eternal value.

Keikiolu was also talking about non-believers, ". if the nonbeliever is coming from doing what they percieve as a good deed due to “natural law”, then they ARE to some extent displaying “worthy service”

I quoted from Isa 57:12 “I will declare thy righteousness, and thy works; for they shall not profit thee.”

If you want to join the conversation, please try to stay on topic. Your comment on idol worship is irrelevant to the point.

 

[Ginger2]

Absolutely. Say an unbeliever runs into a burning building to save a small child, and dies in the process.

“Greater love no man has than to lay down his life for his friend”.

Good works work, and they have merit, sometimes everlasting, eternal merit.

mgrfin are you saying that an atheist can get to heaven without Jesus, but simply by doing one great “good” deed?

Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[mgrfin]

I was talking about non-believers, and how their “good” works have no eternal value.

Keikiolu was also talking about non-believers, ". if the nonbeliever is coming from doing what they percieve as a good deed due to “natural law”, then they ARE to some extent displaying “worthy service”

QUOTE]

“If I want to join the conversation…”? Everyone on this board is welcome to join the conversation.

I am on topic. Refer to #66 where I commented on the good deeds on non-believers.

Your post #68 is not about non-believers. Jesus is talking to the Pharisees and their lack of good works.

Isaiah is speaking to the Jews who were believers, and were urged to perform good works to please God.

If you are talking about pagans, your quotes are totally irrevelant.

peace

PS Please stop sending me private messages. I want everything public and out in the open. I am not dishonest, so please stop these 'argumentum ad hominem".

 

[mgrfin]

mgrfin are you saying that an atheist can get to heaven without Jesus, but simply by doing one great “good” deed?

Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Absolutely.

Any one doing this ‘great good deed’ may never heard of Jesus, but all good comes from God. He is doing it, and it is blessed by Jesus. "Greater love than this no many hath than to lay down his life for his friend.

It is an act of perfect charity. Gee, heaven without Luther.

According to you, no one from the O.T. made it into heaven. Not Moses, not Noah, not David, not Isaiah, not Jerimiah…noone!

You misquote scripture often. Where is this individual denying
Jesus before men?

How is this work ‘inquity’. Running into a burning building to save the life of a child? God bless the man, and I am sure, certainly sure, He does.

peace

 

[Ginger2]

Ginger2;2871231:

Your post #68 is not about non-believers. Jesus is talking to the Pharisees and their lack of good works…

Pharisees are believers?

Then why did they accuse Jesus saying: But when the Pharisees heard [it], they said, This [fellow] doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. Mat 12:24

Why did they want to kill him for claiming to be God? Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Jhn 5:18

 

[Ginger2]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginger2
"mgrfin are you saying that an atheist can get to heaven without Jesus, but simply by doing one great “good” deed?

Absolutely

You misquote scripture often. Where is this individual denying Jesus before men?

Mat 10:33

How is this work ‘inquity’. Running into a burning building to save the life of a child? God bless the man, and I am sure, certainly sure, He does.

How is casting out demons, iniquity?

 

[mgrfin]

mgrfin;2871298:

Pharisees are believers?

Then why did they accuse Jesus saying: But when the Pharisees heard [it], they said, This [fellow] doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. Mat 12:24

Why did they want to kill him for claiming to be God? Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Jhn 5:18

Yes, the Parisees were believers. So was Saul of Tarsus. So were the Apostles. It is charity which informs the soul. Because they were sinners, doesn’t mean they weren’t believers. The Jews were believers in the old Covenant. Some of these Jews came to accept the Faith and became followers of Christ.

peace