Purgation after final judgement

[Ginger2]

Ginger2;2871553:

Yes, the Parisees were believers.

Then why did Jesus say:

“Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil,”

I hardly think Jesus would say a believers father is the devil.

I’ll give you the last word

Goodbye

 

[mgrfin]

How is casting out demons, iniquity?

I think you are confused, and looking to misquote me.

I never said casting out devil is iniquity. You said it.

You have this Lutheran problem about faith. An old testament Jew can have old testament faith - he believes in what has been revealed. He can also be a sinner. Faith can exist with sin. Sin drives out charity (love) from a man’s soul, but there remains faith and hope.

A Christian can be a believer, but also a sinner. He can also be a saint. It is the virtue of charity, or lack thereof that makes the difference.

A person without the Christian faith can perform an act of heroic charity towards his fellow man (our child, in the example).

Losing his life in the process, he saves it (his soul, that is).

I know you would like to make me a fool by misquoting me, but stay with the texts.

You never answered the question of the Old Testament 'saints".
They didn’t have faith in Jesus. What happened to them?

peace

 

[Ginger2]

You never answered the question of the Old Testament 'saints".

Gen 15:6 Abram put his faith in the LORD, who credited it to him as an act of righteousness.
Romans 4:1 What then can we say that Abraham found, our ancestor according to the flesh?
2 Indeed, if Abraham was justified on the basis of his works, he has reason to boast; but this was not so in the sight of God.
3 For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
4 A worker’s wage is credited not as a gift, but as something due. 5 But when one does not work, yet believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his **faith **is credited as righteousness.
6 So also David declares the blessedness of the person to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord does not record.”

They were saved by grace through faith in the promise of the coming Messiah. Here are just a few of the OT prophecies and corresponding NT fulfillment:

Genesis 3:15 -Galatians 4:4;
Genesis 12:3; 18:18 Acts 3:25,26
Genesis 49:10 Matthew 1:2 and Luke 3:33
Psalm 2:7 Matthew 3:17; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22
Psalm 16:10,11 Matthew 28:5-9; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:4-7; John 20:11-16; Acts 1:3 and 2:32
Psalm 22 (contains 11 prophecies—not all listed here) Matthew 27:34-50 and John 19:17-30
Psalm 22:7 Luke 23:11,35-39
Psalm 22:16 Luke 23:33 and 24:36-39;
John 19:18 and 20:19-20,24-27
Psalm 41:9 John 13:18,21
Isaiah 53:5-9 Matthew 27:50; Mark 15:37-39; Luke 23:46; John 19:30

The Jews knew a Messiah was coming. They were waiting for him. They had differing ideas about the Messiah. But so did the Apostles, at first.

 

[mgrfin]

.

This we know about faith and justification which our Catholic Church teaches:
Man cannot be justified by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers, or through the teaching of the law, without divine grace.through Jesus Christ, this according to the de fide definition of the Council of Trent, Sixth Session, Canon 1.

Genesis tells us that Abraham became just by his faith, and he had this faith by the grace of God. Grace was the cause of his justification, and not by any works without faith.

His justice was not ‘forensice justification’ as Luther called it. We must not understand an imputation of being just without a true and interior justice. He was found just by God, who sees the heart, and sanctifies the soul by his infusion of interior grace.

Catholic justification is real, interior, living; Luther’s is forensic justification, that is, a legal fiction, i.e., man’s soul is not really cleansed, really justified. Luther saw the justified man’s soul like a dung heap, covered over by Christ’s merits. The evil did not go away; it remained.

For us, the just man is clothed with the habit of grace, and vested with the stole of charity.

The first element in the great work of justification is the grace of God - actual grace. No man, Abraham, St. Paul, us, can have faith in Christ, no man can even have a genuine desire to possess it, unless the grace of God first draw him.

It is for man to accept this grace or to reject it. If he accepts it, and listens to the voice of God speaking to him, he is led on to make a true act of faith; that is, he is enabled to by God to believe what has been divinely revealed. With this belief in his heart, he is moved to hope in God and to love him, and to turn his heart away from sin. Thus, under the influence of actual grace, a soul is prepared for Justification. Hence it is not a matter of faith alone, but of faith which leads to hope and love and genuine sorrow; yet faith is the foundation of the whole process, or as Trent says, 'the beginning, the foundation, and the root of all Justification."

peace

 

[mgrfin]

GRACE (cont’d)

It is a fundamental principle of Catholic theology that we can do nothing of ourselves towards our salvation, and this is true of the growth of grace. But, we can correspond with grace; and by corresponding with grace we can increase the supernatural life we already possess.’

St. Peter “Wherefore, laying aside all malice and all guile and dissimulations and envies and all detractions, as new-born babies, desire the rational milk without guile that thereby you may grow unto salvation” 1 Pet ii 1-2 This is an exhortation to use our own efforts so that we may deepen within ourselves the supernatural life of grace. “Grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ” 2 Pet iii 18.

Here we have another difference between the Protestant theory of Justification and the true doctrine of the New Testament. In the Protestant theory, Justification is a mere external, non-imputation of sin, and this does not admit of growth. Our sins are either imputed to us, or they are not. The passages quoted are meaningless unless there be, as the Church teaches, a supernatural life in which we go from virtue to virtue, are renewed from day to day, and thus become more and more justified

The fact is we can grow in grace as a result of our own efforts. How do our efforts bring about this increase? It is by meriting an increase in grace that we are to develop our supernatural life. Our efforts do not actually produce the increase, but God grants it as a reward. God alone gives grace and God alone increases it.

The increase can be merited with the help of God, our own actions can bring about the growth of the life of grace., St. Paul: “I have fought the good fight: I have finished the race: I have kept the faith. As to the rest, there is laid up for me a crown of justice which the Lord the Just Judge will render to me in that day: and not only to me but to them also that love his Coming”. 2 Tim iv 7-8

peace

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*Amen.

Although,… if the nonbeliever is coming from doing what they percieve as a good deed due to “natural law”, then they ARE to some extent displaying “worthy service”.*

Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Doing good deeds because they are right to do according to natural law, which is God’s gift of how to act even in His apparent absence, is to do that which justifies a man in the sight of God, not in the sight of men.

To do good as per natural law is not an abomination, and is not what Luke is refering to.

Isa 57:12 I will declare thy righteousness, and thy works; for they shall not profit thee. 13 When thou criest, let thy companies deliver thee; but the wind shall carry them all away; vanity shall take [them]: but he that putteth his trust in me shall possess the land, and shall inherit my holy mountain;

Natural law is not “righteousness as defined by men” nor “works [of virtue] as defined by men”.

Doing good as per natural law is doing God’s righteousness, and God’s “works for good”.

Please remember the subject we’re talking about. Acting according to God’s gift of natural law, which resides in our well formed conscience.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; …

“All OUR righteousness” means righteousness as defined not by God but defined by men for their egoistic benefit.

But if one has no understanding of what natural law is, then it’s rather easy to not understand that there is a kernal of “good” that is placed in man which keeps us from being utter beasts, even with an invincible ignorance of Christ.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[mgrfin]

Doing good deeds because they are right to do according to natural law, which is God’s gift of how to act even in His apparent absence, is to do that which justifies a man in the sight of God, not in the sight of men.

To do good as per natural law is not an abomination, and is not what Luke is refering to.

Natural law is not “righteousness as defined by men” nor “works [of virtue] as defined by men”.

Doing good as per natural law is doing God’s righteousness, and God’s “works for good”.

Please remember the subject we’re talking about. Acting according to God’s gift of natural law, which resides in our well formed conscience.

“All OUR righteousness” means righteousness as defined not by God but defined by men for their egoistic benefit.

But if one has no understanding of what natural law is, then it’s rather easy to not understand that there is a kernal of “good” that is placed in man which keeps us from being utter beasts, even with an invincible ignorance of Christ.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

Well, I spent a lot of time years ago studying St. Thomas Aquinas and the Natural Law. I really don’t want to go back there, but it is highly recommended for Christians who are interested in the subject.

peace

 

[Mannyfit75]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginger2
"mgrfin are you saying that an atheist can get to heaven without Jesus, but simply by doing one great “good” deed?

Through no fault of their own clause. Yes. However, if they have been given revealed truths, and reject the Gospel Message, there is no way they can be saved unless they repent and return to God’s mercy. Only then atheists can be saved.

 

[mgrfin]

Through no fault of their own clause. Yes. However, if they have been given revealed truths, and reject the Gospel Message, there is no way they can be saved unless they repent and return to God’s mercy. Only then atheists can be saved.

If I understand the Protestant position, good deeds done before Justification are sinful.

So, the case I posited was that of a man running into a burning building to save a child. In the process, he loses his life.

I use the words of Christ: “No greater love a man has than to lay down his life for his friend” (as Jesus himself did).

This perfect act of charity merits for this individual pagan eternal life. This perfect act of charity - how does faith match or compare with charity. It doesn’t, plain and simple.

peace

 

[Mannyfit75]

If I understand the Protestant position, good deeds done before Justification are sinful.

So, the case I posited was that of a man running into a burning building to save a child. In the process, he loses his life.

I use the words of Christ: “No greater love a man has than to lay down his life for his friend” (as Jesus himself did).

This perfect act of charity merits for this individual pagan eternal life. This perfect act of charity - how does faith match or compare with charity. It doesn’t, plain and simple.

peace

I would have to disagree with you concerning with atheist. Atheist have to be converted to acknowledge God. As we know atheist deny the existence of God. An atheist have to deny his belief and acknowledge God. When** he does acknowledge God**, the Lord’s grace will move him to act upon his faith. He will be repent, be baptize and be saved. An atheist who knowingly reject God and the Gospel Truth, cannot be saved. That is very clear in our Magisterium.

 

[tm30]

1Cr 6:11 says, " …but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

So, do you think the blood of Christ did all this, but left out purification?

Do you really think that we can somehow pay for the evil we do here on Earth or in purgatory.

Once you are in purgatory how does one paid his debt? Forget that last penny. How do you even pay the first penny once you leave the physical world?

The inclination to evil does not stop when you die. If you were to argue otherwise, you would have to explain why concupiscence doesn’t disappear at baptism. The depth of this concupiscence is what must be purged before entering heaven. Even if your sins are forgiven by the blood of the cross, your concupiscence doesn’t go away. And as long as this is present, one cannot perfectly conform their will to God - which is requisite to the beatific vision, since there is no free will in heaven.

 

[tm30]

mgrfin are you saying that an atheist can get to heaven without Jesus, but simply by doing one great “good” deed?

No, an atheist cannot enter heaven. Plain and simple.

HOWEVER! The million dollar question is whether or not, at the moment of death, God would grant an extraordinary grace to the atheist due to his heroic act of love, giving him faith as reward.

That we don’t know. But an atheist, by definition cannot be eternally in the presence of that which he intrinsically rejects.

Since the Church doesn’t outright judge individuals, we can only leave it to God’s mercy. But if the atheist performed the utmost act of charity and still rejected God, he brings judgment upon himself, nonetheless. When you boil it all down, the atheist rejects his very own existence.

 

[mgrfin]

I would have to disagree with you concerning with atheist. Atheist have to be converted to acknowledge God. As we know atheist deny the existence of God. An atheist have to deny his belief and acknowledge God. When** he does acknowledge God**, the Lord’s grace will move him to act upon his faith. He will be repent, be baptize and be saved. An atheist who knowingly reject God and the Gospel Truth, cannot be saved. That is very clear in our Magisterium.

Manny,

You and I always seem to agree. In this case, I am sorry, but I have to disagree with you.

How could a good and merciful God not grant an eternal reward to someone who gave up his life to save the life of another. This is perfect love, and always trumphs faith. In his perfect love for his neighbor, he is loving God, in a perfect manner.

“Faith without good works is dead.”
“We have these three: faith, hope and charity. But the greatest of these is charity.”

Baptism of desire will save this good fellow. Baptism of fire will save this good fellow.

In heaven, we have only charity. No faith, no hope.

peace

 

[Mannyfit75]

Manny,

You and I always seem to agree. In this case, I am sorry, but I have to disagree with you.

Tell me, mgrfin. What is an atheist? By their definition in our modern times, it is someone who denies the existence of God.

Let me point out to you the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I also like to note that atheism is the sin against the first commandment, according the the Catechism.

Atheism

2123 "Many . . . of our contemporaries either do not at all perceive, or explicitly reject, this intimate and vital bond of man to God. Atheism must therefore be regarded as one of the most serious problems of our time."58

2124 The name “atheism” covers many very different phenomena. One common form is the practical materialism which restricts its needs and aspirations to space and time. Atheistic humanism falsely considers man to be "an end to himself, and the sole maker, with supreme control, of his own history."59 Another form of contemporary atheism looks for the liberation of man through economic and social liberation. "It holds that religion, of its very nature, thwarts such emancipation by raising man’s hopes in a future life, thus both deceiving him and discouraging him from working for a better form of life on earth."60

2125 Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the virtue of religion.61 The imputability of this offense can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and the circumstances. "Believers can have more than a little to do with the rise of atheism. To the extent that they are careless about their instruction in the faith, or present its teaching falsely, or even fail in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than to reveal the true nature of God and of religion."62

2126 Atheism is often based on a false conception of human autonomy, exaggerated to the point of refusing any dependence on God.63 Yet, "to acknowledge God is in no way to oppose the dignity of man, since such dignity is grounded and brought to perfection in God. . . . "64 "For the Church knows full well that her message is in harmony with the most secret desires of the human heart."65

If an atheists **knowingly rejects **God and his message of salvation, he cannot be saved. Remember what Jesus said to his disciples, “He who hears you, hears me, he rejects me, rejects the one who sent me.”

Believe what you want, but according to the Catholicism CCC 2140 … it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the first commandment.

On the other hand, atheist who never know God, or heard of Jesus, but are moved by grace, can maybe saved through no fault of their own. But first, they must acknowledge God as their maker. He has to cease to be an atheist in order to be welcome in the kingdom of God.

For man was created to seek God, know God, love God, and be with him forever for all eternity.

Suppose, an** atheist is dying and finally realizes that he does love God**. He can repent and ask for mercy, and say this with an honest and contrite heart, then perhaps God will grant him his Kingdom. God who knows the heart of man can judge wisely who goes and who doesn’t based on the deeds he done on this earth.

The problem, I had with your belief that atheists can be saved, is erroneous. For atheist deny the very existence of God. By his own free will, he fully rejects God. Of course God is mercy, and the atheist is given that time to repent. If he does not repent, he will surely not gain heaven.

 

[mgrfin]

Tell me, mgrfin. What is an atheist? By their definition in our modern times, it is someone who denies the existence of God.

Let me point out to you the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I also like to note that atheism is the sin against the first commandment, according the the Catechism.

Atheism

2123 "Many . . . of our contemporaries either do not at all perceive, or explicitly reject, this intimate and vital bond of man to God. Atheism must therefore be regarded as one of the most serious problems of our time."58

2124 The name “atheism” covers many very different phenomena. One common form is the practical materialism which restricts its needs and aspirations to space and time. Atheistic humanism falsely considers man to be "an end to himself, and the sole maker, with supreme control, of his own history."59 Another form of contemporary atheism looks for the liberation of man through economic and social liberation. "It holds that religion, of its very nature, thwarts such emancipation by raising man’s hopes in a future life, thus both deceiving him and discouraging him from working for a better form of life on earth."60

2125 Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the virtue of religion.61 The imputability of this offense can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and the circumstances. "Believers can have more than a little to do with the rise of atheism. To the extent that they are careless about their instruction in the faith, or present its teaching falsely, or even fail in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than to reveal the true nature of God and of religion."62

2126 **Atheism is often based on a false conception of human autonomy, exaggerated to the point of refusing **any dependence on God.63 Yet, "to acknowledge God is in no way to oppose the dignity of man, since such dignity is grounded and brought to perfection in God. . . . "64 "For the Church knows full well that her message is in harmony with the most secret desires of the human heart."65

If an atheists **knowingly rejects **God and his message of salvation, he cannot be saved. Remember what Jesus said to his disciples, “He who hears you, hears me, he rejects me, rejects the one who sent me.”

Believe what you want, but according to the Catholicism CCC 2140 … it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the first commandment.

On the other hand, atheist who never know God, or heard of Jesus, but are moved by grace, can maybe saved through no fault of their own. But first, they must acknowledge God as their maker. He has to cease to be an atheist in order to be welcome in the kingdom of God.

For man was created to seek God, know God, love God, and be with him forever for all eternity.

Suppose, an** atheist is dying and finally realizes that he does love God**. He can repent and ask for mercy, and say this with an honest and contrite heart, then perhaps God will grant him his Kingdom. God who knows the heart of man can judge wisely who goes and who doesn’t based on the deeds he done on this earth.

The problem, I had with your belief that atheists can be saved, is erroneous. For atheist deny the very existence of God. By his own free will, he fully rejects God. Of course God is mercy, and the atheist is given that time to repent. If he does not repent, he will surely not gain heaven.

Well, you have introduced the concept of ‘atheism’. I didn’t. You are making moral judgments about our hypothetical individual.

Let’s take it back a step, and suggest our individual is a believer, but is not in the state of grace. Same act of perfect charity. What then? Are you committing him to hell for eternity?

peace

 

[Mannyfit75]

Well, you have introduced the concept of ‘atheism’. I didn’t. You are making moral judgments about our hypothetical individual.

Let’s take it back a step, and suggest our individual is a believer, but is not in the state of grace. Same act of perfect charity. What then? Are you committing him to hell for eternity?

peace

If he is a believer he is not an atheist. Remember atheist denies the very existence of God. He would not fit the role of an atheist if he is a believer of a Monotheistic God. Atheist deny the existence of the Creator. Man himself is the sole master of his own destiny. As one atheist friend told me once. “I don’t believe in God. I don’t believe in the resurrection and reincarnation. I believe when we die we will be food for worms.”

An atheist deny the truth existence of God. He acknowledge certain groups of individuals, Christians, Jews, Muslim believe in a singular God. Yet, he does not believe.

I would take the words of Sacred Scripture, and the Teaching of the Magisterium. As for me, I have no way of knowing the state of the soul of an atheist who just died, he could have repented a few moments after death, and could be save. Who knows.

I just saying that anyone who under his own free will, rejects God completely, I see no reason but a just God who had told him on several points of his life that God loves and that he wants him to repent, and have him acknowledge his creator, but the atheist rejects him. He had that chance to accept the truth.

Upon his death, the atheist will stand before the judgement of God. God will question.

“Oh, Judas, why did you not believe in me? I have several times guided certain men about my Good News. Yet you reject me. For this reason above all, I cannot let you enter the Father’s House. Depart from me, you unbeliever. For I have given you time to repent, and you didn’t. You have been warn, and it is now to late.”

 

[mgrfin]

If he is a believer he is not an atheist. Remember atheist denies the very existence of God. He would not fit the role of an atheist if he is a believer of a Monotheistic God. Atheist deny the existence of the Creator. Man himself is the sole master of his own destiny. As one atheist friend told me once. “I don’t believe in God. I don’t believe in the resurrection and reincarnation. I believe when we die we will be food for worms.”

An atheist deny the truth existence of God. He acknowledge certain groups of individuals, Christians, Jews, Muslim believe in a singular God. Yet, he does not believe.

I would take the words of Sacred Scripture, and the Teaching of the Magisterium. As for me, I have no way of knowing the state of the soul of an atheist who just died, he could have repented a few moments after death, and could be save. Who knows.

I just saying that anyone who under his own free will, rejects God completely, I see no reason but a just God who had told him on several points of his life that God loves and that he wants him to repent, and have him acknowledge his creator, but the atheist rejects him. He had that chance to accept the truth.

Upon his death, the atheist will stand before the judgement of God. God will question.

“Oh, Judas, why did you not believe in me? I have several times guided certain men about my Good News. Yet you reject me. For this reason above all, I cannot let you enter the Father’s House. Depart from me, you unbeliever. For I have given you time to repent, and you didn’t. You have been warn, and it is now to late.”

I have an argument for what you are saying about an athetist who performs a perfect act of charity: that is, he gives up his life to save the life of another.

You have insisted upon making this guy an athestist. As a first step I wanted you to accept the case, not of an athetist, but of someone who dies unjustified, that is, in the state of mortal sin.

What then?

peace

 

[mgrfin]

QUOTE]

I’ll jump in here with my answer regarding dying as a result of an act of perfect charity, whether of an athetist, or a person in serious sin.

Our man runs into a burning building to save the life of a child, and in do so, he loses his life. Not that unheard of.

St. Thomas argued that St. Ambrose commenting on Luke maintained that all virtues are connected and interlocked such that he who has one has all. Perfect charity therefore chases out all deficiencies, whether lack of faith, or other moral fault.

You cannot have perfect charity in your soul and have the sin of immorality. They cannot coexist. Perfect charity drives out all sin.

peace

 

[Mannyfit75]

I have an argument for what you are saying about an athetist who performs a perfect act of charity: that is, he gives up his life to save the life of another.

You have insisted upon making this guy an athestist. As a first step I wanted you to accept the case, not of an athetist, but of someone who dies unjustified, that is, in the state of mortal sin.

What then?

peace

So you want me to assumed that this individual is not an atheist? Well, then so we can assumed this man have never heard of Jesus and His Church. Well, he is moved by grace and work out his charity yes. He can.

An atheist who fully acknowledge that there is no God, couldn’t be saved since he rejected truth.

 

[Ginger2]

I’ll jump in here with my answer regarding dying as a result of an act of perfect charity, whether of an athetist, or a person in serious sin.

Our man runs into a burning building to save the life of a child, and in do so, he loses his life. Not that unheard of.

St. Thomas argued that St. Ambrose commenting on Luke maintained that all virtues are connected and interlocked such that he who has one has all. Perfect charity therefore chases out all deficiencies, whether lack of faith, or other moral fault.

You cannot have perfect charity in your soul and have the sin of immorality. They cannot coexist. Perfect charity drives out all sin.

peace

I have to ask…
I know an atheist who is a fire fighter, and I know that he has saved the life of at least one person while risking his own life.

By your reasoning, he would have gone to heaven if he had died - even tho God knowing his heart knew that he would remain an unrepentant atheist?

Is that what you are saying?