?purgatory 101?

[angierabbit2012]

Hello All!

I am a convert and only came into the Church this past Easter.
Please forgive me if this is a stupid question!!
Do you believe that some people spend their PURGATORY
on Earth?

I personally feel that it is a VERY likely possibility.
I DON"T remember this being discussed when I was in RCIA.

THANKS in advance for your insight into this fascinating subject.

 

[DasErlibnis]

Mother Theresa was of the mind that the more you suffer on earth, for love or faith, then the less you will spend in purgatory.

I think I agree. Earth is an opportunity to get right with God, and so is Purgatory. Get it done now, start evangelizing and doing penance. Bible says both are effective for covering sin.

 

[The_Scott]

Hello All!

I am a convert and only came into the Church this past Easter.
Please forgive me if this is a stupid question!!
Do you believe that some people spend their PURGATORY
on Earth?

I personally feel that it is a VERY likely possibility.
I DON"T remember this being discussed when I was in RCIA.

THANKS in advance for your insight into this fascinating subject.

Do you mean as ghosts? If so, it’s certainly a possibility; I don’t have a definite answer on the subject of ghosts, and neither does the Church (which is probably why I don’t). I mean, it would be interesting if some souls in Purgatory spend their purification as ghosts on Earth. I don’t know, though. Maybe others can give a better answer than I did.

 

[meltzerboy]

Hello All!

I am a convert and only came into the Church this past Easter.
Please forgive me if this is a stupid question!!
Do you believe that some people spend their PURGATORY
on Earth?

I personally feel that it is a VERY likely possibility.
I DON"T remember this being discussed when I was in RCIA.

THANKS in advance for your insight into this fascinating subject.

I’m not Catholic, so take what I say with large grains of salt. However, I think it’s not a question of what individual Catholics may believe about Purgatory, but rather what the Church teaches. To my knowledge, Purgatory occurs AFTER death, not while one is alive. It is a period of atonement and cleansing which purifies one so they are fit to enter Heaven, and it may last either a short or long period of time. Interestingly, Judaism has a similar concept of purification after death although suffering in this life may mitigate the Purgatorial atonement process. Jewish teaching says it is a period of time no more than 11 months (a full year for the most wicked). I believe, according to both Catholicism and Judaism, there are those few who may not need to be purified in Purgatory due to leading an exceptionally moral and faithful life on Earth, but probably not too many of us.

 

[Leegal]

Hello All!

I am a convert and only came into the Church this past Easter.
Please forgive me if this is a stupid question!!
Do you believe that some people spend their PURGATORY
on Earth?

I personally feel that it is a VERY likely possibility.
I DON"T remember this being discussed when I was in RCIA.

THANKS in advance for your insight into this fascinating subject.

Hmmm. Somewhat agree because, for me, it explains why people seem to suffer with more tragedies, cannot catch a break, and have terrible things happen through no fault of their own – while others seem to suffer far less in the temporal sense, even to the detrimient of others never being held accountable. I don’t think all pergatory is on earth, but it certainly might explain some of the things I’ve seen.

 

[BernadetteM]

I’m not Catholic, so take what I say with large grains of salt. However, I think it’s not a question of what individual Catholics may believe about Purgatory, but rather what the Church teaches. To my knowledge, Purgatory occurs AFTER death, not while one is alive. It is a period of atonement and cleansing which purifies one so they are fit to enter Heaven, and it may last either a short or long period of time. Interestingly, Judaism has a similar concept of purification after death although suffering in this life may mitigate the Purgatorial atonement process. Jewish teaching says it is a period of time no more than 11 months (a full year for the most wicked). I believe, according to both Catholicism and Judaism, there are those few who may not need to be purified in Purgatory due to leading an exceptionally moral and faithful life on Earth, but probably not too many of us.

Would you be so kind as to inform us where this belief comes from within the Jewish faith?

It is very interesting as the Church teaches that it is the fulfillment of the Old Testament and uses Maccabees as one source for the belief in Purgatory.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[meltzerboy]

Would you be so kind as to inform us where this belief comes from within the Jewish faith?

It is very interesting as the Church teaches that it is the fulfillment of the Old Testament and uses Maccabees as one source for the belief in Purgatory.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

I believe the notion of rising from Gehinnom after purification comes from the Babylonian Talmud (Jewish Oral Law) as well as a passage from Zechariah. The first and second books of Maccabees are not officially part of the Hebrew Bible. There are many potential reasons, including the Council of Jamnia hypothesis; the religious conflict between the Sadducees and Pharisees, the latter winning the heart and soul of Judaism; the fact these books were adopted by the Catholic canon; and several other possibilities. However, some Jews still read these books, even though they are not included in the Tanakh.

 

[angierabbit2012]

Do you mean as ghosts? If so, it’s certainly a possibility; I don’t have a definite answer on the subject of ghosts, and neither does the Church (which is probably why I don’t). I mean, it would be interesting if some souls in Purgatory spend their purification as ghosts on Earth. I don’t know, though. Maybe others can give a better answer than I did.

No. I hadn’t thought about ghosts at all, but that sure is an interesting angle.

I was thinking that PURGATORY on Earth might explain why so many people seem to suffer many hardships while they’re here.
??? I’m NOT the brightest light:newidea: bulb in the room, but I think it’s something to think about. :blushing:

 

[angierabbit2012]

Hmmm. Somewhat agree because, for me, it explains why people seem to suffer with more tragedies, cannot catch a break, and have terrible things happen through no fault of their own – while others seem to suffer far less in the temporal sense, even to the detrimient of others never being held accountable. I don’t think all pergatory is on earth, but it certainly might explain some of the things I’ve seen.

I agree!

I don’t think that ALL purgatory would be spent on Earth, but I also don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that part of it might be.

 

[The_Scott]

No. I hadn’t thought about ghosts at all, but that sure is an interesting angle.

I was thinking that PURGATORY on Earth might explain why so many people seem to suffer many hardships while they’re here.
??? I’m NOT the brightest light:newidea: bulb in the room, but I think it’s something to think about. :blushing:

Ah, okay! Sorry for misunderstanding you!

I’m busy at the moment, and can’t really answer your question in depth. But to give the Sparknotes version: I don’t think that would work. Purgatory is the place of purification of venial sins after death; suffering on Earth is so that we may imitate Christ. Yes, they have a similar end or goal (to be with God), but I think the pains of Purgatory would solely be within the realm of those with venial sins to purge.

A more detailed answer later, if I have time!

 

[CB_Catholic]

No. I hadn’t thought about ghosts at all, but that sure is an interesting angle.

I was thinking that PURGATORY on Earth might explain why so many people seem to suffer many hardships while they’re here.
??? I’m NOT the brightest light:newidea: bulb in the room, but I think it’s something to think about. :blushing:

I have thought this is the case for years, esp. if one allows one’s suffering to purify them. Many years ago I went through some severe trials and illnesses. It was during these trials that I actually realized how unfit for Heaven I was. I clearly saw my selfishness, etc. It was a purifying time. Of course, I was not perfectly purified, as I have many faults still, but I think I spent part of my purification here on earth during those awful years.

Of course, no one can really say for sure, but I don’t believe it is wrong to believe that. Since there is no actual time in purgatory, there is not reason it can’t begin here. Only God knows for sure.

 

[Marchmain1987]

The dead are either in Hell, Purgatory, or Heaven. But there are sources that say otherwise and/or where Hell and Purgatory actually are, but these have no real basis in tradition or Scripture.

This also delves into cultural superstitions

As fascinating book is :

Satan’s Rhetoric: A Study of Renaissance Demonology
It covers what Church’s officials actually wrote about ghosts and demons without the lens of Marx and feminism.

It is a secular and academic book – not a light read.

amazon.com/Satans-Rhetoric-Study-Renaissance-Demonology/dp/0226501329/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1327104589&sr=8-1-spell



From this source, Church officials stated that the dead cannot speak. They can appear to us and this should let us know to pray for them. If they speak, then they are evil. But this is from the Renaissance and is not official teaching in any way, shape or form.

 

[JimmytheButcher]

Our Jewish friend here is on the money regarding purgation and punishment.

Very, very few folks ever pay their dues in entirety on earth.

Gehenna is a term that applies to both Hellish abode and also to the purification of passing into the Heavenly realm. Both are a Lake of Fire and equally tormenting. Indeed, I have come to the understanding that there are some folks who don’t even realise that they are not in eternal hell when in reality they are at the lowest level of the mountain. That these await for our intercession on their behalf is a stark reminder of how we ought to conduct ourselves whilst still in the here and now. We have not only the responsibility for ourselves but also for our brethren.

The Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary gives great relief to the tormented souls. It contains all of the lovely psalms and canticles that act as balm to their wounds. If my memory isn’t betraying me I believe in particular Psalm cxxix “De profundis clamavi ad te, Domine: Domine, exaudi vocem meam.” Out of the depths have I cried unto Thee, O Lord: Lord, hear my voice.

…or at least that’s what my take was after reading some books written by saints on the subject.

St. John Fisher is a wonderful resource on the subject.

If I might do so, I would like to make a personal observation. Purgatory is a place. This we much we know; not a place that can be found by microscope or telescope, but a place undeniably. I find a certain solace in thinking of Purgatory couched in the language of John 3:16… You know the Sacred Heart of Jesus is a place of fire, and what greater furnace could there be to crucible our souls? We must always remember to speak of Mary’s Immaculate Heart when speaking of the afterlife. She is the Blessed Gate of Heaven, Felix Coeli Porta, afterall, and her earthly husband Joseph’s title is, Redemptoris Custos; that is, sometimes rendered as Guardian of the Redeemer, but also can be read as the Gatekeeper. Custos is Latin for the office of sub-sacristan… you know those young guys who are around the parish who help out because they are tradesmen, carpenters, electricians, plumbers, butchers.

So… it is a private idea that I enjoy. I don’t think Joseph would let anything stained pass through Mary’s Heart. Naturally, as custodian he guards access to the lock. Surely, there is a Godly reason why Joseph would have died before the Son.

 

[angierabbit2012]

I have thought this is the case for years, esp. if one allows one’s suffering to purify them. Many years ago I went through some severe trials and illnesses. It was during these trials that I actually realized how unfit for Heaven I was. I clearly saw my selfishness, etc. It was a purifying time. Of course, I was not perfectly purified, as I have many faults still, but I think I spent part of my purification here on earth during those awful years.

Of course, no one can really say for sure, but I don’t believe it is wrong to believe that. Since there is no actual time in purgatory, there is not reason it can’t begin here. Only God knows for sure.

YES! That’s what I mean…you said it so much better than I did.

L@@k at the Saints, how they suffered!
I just don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility.

 

[angierabbit2012]

If I might do so, I would like to make a personal observation. Purgatory is a place. This we much we know; not a place that can be found by microscope or telescope, but a place undeniably. I find a certain solace in thinking of Purgatory couched in the language of John 3:16… You know the Sacred Heart of Jesus is a place of fire, and what greater furnace could there be to crucible our souls? We must always remember to speak of Mary’s Immaculate Heart when speaking of the afterlife. She is the Blessed Gate of Heaven, Felix Coeli Porta, afterall, and her earthly husband Joseph’s title is, Redemptoris Custos; that is, sometimes rendered as Guardian of the Redeemer, but also can be read as the Gatekeeper. Custos is Latin for the office of sub-sacristan… you know those young guys who are around the parish who help out because they are tradesmen, carpenters, electricians, plumbers, butchers.

So… it is a private idea that I enjoy. I don’t think Joseph would let anything stained pass through Mary’s Heart. Naturally, as custodian he guards access to the lock. Surely, there is a Godly reason why Joseph would have died before the Son.

Fascinating!

I have often wondered why Joseph was taken when we all know that Jesus could have saved his life. I always believed that there must have been a specific purpose for his passing into the next life.

 

[NeedImprovement]

YES! That’s what I mean…you said it so much better than I did.

L@@k at the Saints, how they suffered!
I just don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility.

Saint André Bessette ( Brother André) - founder of St. Joseph’s Oratory here in Montreal (here’s a linked pic) , said it in almost the exact words you used in the original post.

It’s been a while, but I believe I read it in one of the the biographies written on Brother André - the one which is written by H.P. Bergeron C.S.C. .I think his words were, “There are some souls who do their Purgatory while here on earth” - referring to purgation.

What you’ve said about the saints quoted above makes sense . If we don’t believe that there are at least some souls who do their Purgatory on earth - in the sense which has now been clarified on the thread , wouldn’t it mean that we don’t believe any souls have ever gone straight to Heaven - aside from our Blessed Mother ? That sounds a little discouraging to me ( and perhaps even more discouraging to a prayerful soul already suffering intensely on this earth ).

I just dug out the biography to see if I could find Saint André’s exact words but after 20 minutes (192 pgs) , I have to give it a break. I’ll post the exact words with their coordinates in the biography if I have the time and am successful.

 

[Carlan]

I believe purification is part of our justification…growth in holiness. It is part of the justification process which is a life long process.
If we are still lacking in temporal punishment for repented and forgiven sins at death our purification will continue until our souls are pleasing to God. Peace, Carlan

 

[Lamafacaja]

Yes, prayer and fasting and accepting crosses are all forms of penance that can help to lessen the time we must spend in purgatory. But purgatory is much worse than any penance we can endure here on earth.

catholicity.com/baltimore-catechism/lesson29.html

1. What are the effects of the sacrament of Penance, worthily received?
   The effects of the sacrament of Penance, worthily received, are:

the restoration or increase of sanctifying grace;
the forgiveness of sins;
the remission of the eternal punishment, if necessary,** and also of part, at least, of the temporal punishment, due to our sins;** [in purgatory]
the help to avoid sin in future;
the restoration of the merits of our good works if they have been lost by mortal sin.

 

[Jeanne_S]

Pope JohnPaulI wrote an apostolic letter addressing the meaning if human suffering,it is titled"Salvifici Doloris".In uniting our suffering to Christ and His Holy Cross,we not only grow in holiness and grace,we also are doing penance for our sins.Purgatory is a purification of our souls for sins not properly expiatied in this life.So,by offering up our trials and suffering We are in fact working off some time in purgatory.We can also offer our suffering for the holy souls already in purgatory,since once there,they are no longer able to help themselves.They rely on our prayers and offerings for their sake.This is considered an act of charity. Jeanne

 

[angierabbit2012]

Saint André Bessette ( Brother André) - founder of St. Joseph’s Oratory here in Montreal (here’s a linked pic) , said it in almost the exact words you used in the original post.

It’s been a while, but I believe I read it in one of the the biographies written on Brother André - the one which is written by H.P. Bergeron C.S.C. .I think his words were, “There are some souls who do their Purgatory while here on earth” - referring to purgation.

What you’ve said about the saints quoted above makes sense . If we don’t believe that there are at least some souls who do their Purgatory on earth - in the sense which has now been clarified on the thread , wouldn’t it mean that we don’t believe any souls have ever gone straight to Heaven - aside from our Blessed Mother ? That sounds a little discouraging to me ( and perhaps even more discouraging to a prayerful soul already suffering intensely on this earth ).

I just dug out the biography to see if I could find Saint André’s exact words but after 20 minutes (192 pgs) , I have to give it a break. I’ll post the exact words with their coordinates in the biography if I have the time and am successful.

WOW!
You might not believe this but I just recently acquired a very old prayer card for “Blessed” Brother Andre`.
I looked him up online and discovered that he had been declared a Saint.
It’s fascinating to learn that he felt that way about Purgatory.
If you do find the quote I would be very thankful if you posted it. :getholy: