Purgatory: a clear explanation?

[AprilsMom]

I would appreciate a scriptural reference (something Jesus SAID) regarding this teaching. I simply do not find it credible from His words. It appears to me that this is a teaching that evolved through Human thought. I think of it in this way: upon physical death, the soul is immediately aware of its (his/her) failures, sins, the things done (deliberately or not) that hurt others, offended God’s purpose, etc. I think such a soul would choose to withdraw from the Presence in order to “work” in some manner God allows (perhaps intercede in prayer, perhaps more elaborate than that). The thief on the cross next to Jesus was immediately allowed into Paradise simply because of his belief in Jesus. I was told I am excommunicated because of this. I refuse that judgment. Can someone help me understand this concept? TY so very much.

 

[LoyalViews]

First of all, you are not in any way excommunicated for not understanding purgatory. Whoever told you that was uttering nonsense, probably emotionally charged output, and not worthy of belief.

Secondly, it is good to recall that it was the Church that gave us the Bible - not the Bible that gave us the Church. Tradition is the second component of our belief, along with Scripture.

This article here is a good explanation of purgatory and its biblical, traditional, and our reasons to believe in and pray for the souls of Purgatory.

Is Purgatory in the Bible? | Catholic Answers Magazine

 

[BlackFriar]

Only Protestants rely on explicit Scriptural quotes.
You won’t find anything on the Immaculate Conception, Papal infallibility, the Assumption either.

Are these teachings a difficulty as well?

Yes they have evolved from reflection on the deposit of faith by Catholic humans, especially the successor of Peter.

 

[jim1130]

Try to think of Purgatory as a process, not a place; a cleansing place. I see Purgatory as a gift from generous and benevolent God who know that we die imperfect and allows for us to be cleansed.

From the Catholic Catechism:

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 - All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 - The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. (606) The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: (607)

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. (608)

1032 - This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” (609) From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.(610) The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them. (611)

 

[jim1130]

I pray this often throughout my day:

Prayer for the Holy Souls in Purgatory by St. Gertrude the Great.

According to tradition, St. Gertrude the Great was told by Our Lord that the following prayer, each time she piously recited it, would release 1,000 souls (or a vast number) from their suffering in purgatory:

“Eternal Father,
I offer You the most precious blood
of thy Divine Son, Jesus,
in union with the Masses said
throughout the world today,
for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory,
for sinners everywhere,
for sinners in the universal Church,
for those in my own home,
and in my family. Amen.”

 

[St.Martin_de_Porres]

I think we must first deal with the presumption that all our Christian beliefs must be explicitly laid out in scripture and even more so said by Jesus himself.
Do you have a scriptural reference for that?

 

[Gorgias]

I would appreciate a scriptural reference (something Jesus SAID) regarding this teaching. I simply do not find it credible from His words. It appears to me that this is a teaching that evolved through Human thought. I think of it in this way: upon physical death, the soul is immediately aware of its (his/her) failures, sins, the things done (deliberately or not) that hurt others, offended God’s purpose, etc. I think such a soul would choose to withdraw from the Presence in order to “work” in some manner God allows (perhaps intercede in prayer, perhaps more elaborate than that).

So, do you mind if I ask you a question? Do you have a scriptural reference – something Jesus said – to support your thoughts on what happens after physical death?

If not, then why does the Church need a Scriptural reference for its teaching, but yours is OK without one?

Just asking…

 

[brian_custer]

only Protestants rely on explicit Scriptural quotes.

You won’t find anything on the Immaculate Conception, Papal infallibility, the Assumption either.

i don’t know how much clearer OP’s question could’ve be answered…

 

[Reuben_J]

There are Biblical verses that allude to purgatory but since you do not find them credible then I cannot help you because Biblical verses are interpreted and understood depending on who explain them to you.

 

[PeterT]

I would appreciate a scriptural reference (something Jesus SAID) regarding this teaching. I simply do not find it credible from His words. It appears to me that this is a teaching that evolved through Human thought. I think of it in this way: upon physical death, the soul is immediately aware of its (his/her) failures, sins, the things done (deliberately or not) that hurt others, offended God’s purpose, etc. I think such a soul would choose to withdraw from the Presence in order to “work” in some manner God allows (perhaps intercede in prayer, perhaps more elaborate than that). The thief on the cross next to Jesus was immediately allowed into Paradise simply because of his belief in Jesus. I was told I am excommunicated because of this. I refuse that judgment. Can someone help me understand this concept? TY so very much.

Maybe Fr. Mike from Ascension Presents can help you understand what Purgatory is all about:

YouTube — Fr. Mike Schmitz explains Purgatory

 

[AprilsMom]

St. Martin_de_Porres, I think that all belief and every doctrine must have been stated by Jesus, yes. I know that the Councils are supposedly inspired by the Holy Spirit but certainly you can agree there have been many errors? The thief on the cross next to Jesus did not go to “purgatory”, Jesus promised immediate “paradise” that day. I wonder how far the RCC has strayed from the absolute intention of Jesus. This makes me a difficult Catholic with whom to deal, perhaps, although the Real Presence is without doubt present in the Eucharist.

 

[AprilsMom]

TY very very much, very helpful

 

[St.Martin_de_Porres]

Where in the bible does it say that every belief and doctrine must be said by Jesus?

Not arguing just trying to get at the center of your belief.

Also could you elaborate on th errors you spaek of

 

[guanophore]

I think of it in this way: upon physical death, the soul is immediately aware of its (his/her) failures, sins, the things done (deliberately or not) that hurt others, offended God’s purpose, etc. I think such a soul would choose to withdraw from the Presence in order to “work” in some manner God allows (perhaps intercede in prayer, perhaps more elaborate than that).

It is true that we all face a particular (individual) judgment at death. The problem with your theory here is that it does not square with Apostolic teaching. I agree that our human tendency is to withdraw from God in our shorcomings, and that we tend to want to some how '“work” in some manner to rectify them, but those who are dead in Christ have ceased their labors (they cannot do anything to merit grace). Since nothing unclean can enter heaven, and most of us are still suffering attachments to sin in this life, we need God’s grace to purify us for heaven.

The thief on the cross next to Jesus was immediately allowed into Paradise simply because of his belief in Jesus.

Perhaps you are misundertanding what Jesus said? “paradise” is the Jewish concept for the place of the righteous dead (that Jesus describes in the parable of Lazarus). Paradise in this context does not mean he went straight to heaven that day. The gates of heaven remained closed until Jesus ascended, and opened them again.

I was told I am excommunicated because of this.

You were excommunicated because Jesus told the thief he would be with Him in paradise? I don’t think so…

I refuse that judgment. Can someone help me understand this concept?

Instead of starting with something Jesus said, you need to start in Maccabees.

Only Protestants rely on explicit Scriptural quotes.

You won’t find anything on the Immaculate Conception, Papal infallibility, the Assumption either.

Are these teachings a difficulty as well?

Yes they have evolved from reflection on the deposit of faith by Catholic humans, especially the successor of Peter.

And let us not forget the Trinity, the hypostatic union, and the table of contents for that Bible!

“I think that all belief and every doctrine must have been stated by Jesus,”

Interesting. Where in the Bible does it say that? Or how did you come to implement such a standard?

In fact I think this rules out all of the New Testament, because even though it does attribute direct statements to Jesus, some of the people who wrote them were not present when He made the statements. Nothing in Luke could be accepted, since he was not one of those who “went around” with Jesus in Palestine.

 

[guanophore]

" know that the Councils are supposedly inspired by the Holy Spirit but certainly you can agree there have been many errors? "

No, but that is probably beyond the scope of this thread. It is curious that you seem confident about inventing your own doctrines according to your own private interpretations, but that you don’t trust the Church Councils to be led by the Holy Spirit?

" know that the Councils are supposedly inspired by the Holy Spirit but certainly you can agree there have been many errors? "

No, but that is probably beyond the scope of this thread. It is curious that you seem confident about inventing your own doctrines according to your own private interpretations, but that you don’t trust the Church Councils to be led by the Holy Spirit?

“The thief on the cross next to Jesus did not go to “purgatory””

Actually, the thief was having his purgatory on the cross. Jesus could have taken his soul with Him when He died, but instead, He left him there on the cross to suffer until nightfall, then have his legs broken, and suffocate slowly. As the thief stated, he was suffering the just punishment for his sins.

" I wonder how far the RCC has strayed from the absolute intention of Jesus."

It seems like it would be difficult to determine this, since you seem to regret that the New Testament was written by, for, and about Catholics. There is nothing in the NT that is not Catholic! It also sounds like you have rejected the Sacred Tradition, which is the teaching of the Apostles protected infallibly in the Church by the Holy Spirit. Where else are you going to find authentic witnesses to the “absolute intention of Jesus” when the Sources He left for your instruction are ruled out?

“This makes me a difficult Catholic with whom to deal,”

I can see why! Is this something that makes you proud of yourself? Such an attitude is more likely to separate you from the Church than a deficient understanding of purgatory!

" the RCC "

The Catholic Church is not “Roman”, April(name removed by moderator). Have you been allowing yourself to be exposed to anti-Catholic material? There seems to be a bit of a hostile tone in your post.

 

[PeterT]

St. Martin_de_Porres, I think that all belief and every doctrine must have been stated by Jesus, yes. I know that the Councils are supposedly inspired by the Holy Spirit but certainly you can agree there have been many errors? The thief on the cross next to Jesus did not go to “purgatory”, Jesus promised immediate “paradise” that day. I wonder how far the RCC has strayed from the absolute intention of Jesus. This makes me a difficult Catholic with whom to deal, perhaps, although the Real Presence is without doubt present in the Eucharist.

In all honesty, our Lord Jesus might have indeed done that while here on Earth (but we really don’t know). But we do know from the last holy gospel of Jesus that was written, the Holy Gospel according to John, that not everything that Jesus said and did was recorded in holy scripture. To quote the last verse of the Holy Gospel according to John (Chapter 21, versus 25, NABRE):

“There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.”

 

[Crocus]

Her discription sounds an awful lot like purgatory to me. Can’t look God in the face. Withdraw to maybe “purge” defects. Hope, pray.

@April(name removed by moderator) I think you’re not far off. Hope you can find some assurance in posts above and find peace. :hugs:

 

[AprilsMom]

I really do understand the Protestant “Sola Scriptura” position. Jesus said a great many things, and often rebuked the Pharisees for bringing laws to the people that were impossible to follow while they, themselves, did not follow them. He was also condemned for healing on the Sabbath as well as other things by the Pharisees because it was against the “Law”. Jesus said he did not come to extinguish the Law, but to fulfill it. And then the Catholic Church, over the past two millennia, has put into place more “laws”. One great error I can elaborate on is the former RCC teaching that only Catholics can go to “heaven”, that is what I was taught as a child in Catholic school. Vatican II changed all of that. The Catechism appears to have been amended. You don’t see a problem with that? I’m not being confrontational, I’m being honest.

 

[Spyridon]

Can you show me where Jesus said that God is a Trinity or where Jesus said he is fully God and fully man?

Can you show me where Jesus said the Bible is the sole rule of faith? Because I can show you where Jesus said that the Pharisees sit on the chair of Moses and to follow them.

Can you show me where Jesus said which books compose the NT Canon?

Can you show me where Jesus explicitly says “I am God?”

 

[Spyridon]

Jesus said a great many things, and often rebuked the Pharisees for bringing laws to the people that were impossible to follow while they, themselves, did not follow them.

Okay.

But what else did Jesus say in that passage?

Matthew 23:1-3

“Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice.”

Why didn’t Jesus instead say “therefore, disregard all they tell you, and come, follow me?”

Because he recognized the lawful teaching authority (Magisterium) of the Scribes and Pharisees who had the authority to teach from the Cathedra - the Chair - of Moses.

And who did those Scribes and Pharisees and the Chair of Moses prefigure and who succeeded them after Pentecost? The Apostles and their Successors the Bishops, the Chief of whom was St. Peter and his successors the Popes.

King Jesus Himself is the New Moses, and the Pope is his Prime Minister and Vicar on Earth. Therefore the Pope sits on earth in the chair of the New Moses, and all the Bishops in Communion with him also sit on the chair of the New Moses, and Jesus says to us “observe and do whatsoever they command you, but if they act like hypocrites, don’t follow their bad example.”