Purgatory: a clear explanation?

[guanophore]

I have no hostility against Catholicism. I follow Jesus, I read His words, I study His teachings.

The position you have taken that you only want to believe what Jesus said in His own words demonstrates hostility toward the Catholic Church. It means that you do not accept that Jesus gave the Apostles the power to bind and loose, or that they did not pass this authority on to the Bishops.

Because the Magisterium “says it”, they are automatically covered by the Holy Spirit;

Actually, it is YOU that is covered by the Holy Spirit. When you obey what the Church teaches, whether you understand it, agree with it, or not, the HS will protect you.

… how is that possible when you know perfectly well that God is not a “magic button” to push, but an entity so enormous we cannot even possibly begin to comprehend were it not for Jesus?

Yes, we all agree that God is not a “magic button” to push. I think you are saying that God is an “entity” we cannot possibly begin to understand? God has been revealing Himself to mankind since Adam and Eve were created. He finds a way to make Himself known. Jesus is the fullness of God made known to man. He manifested this fullness in His Church, which is why we can trust what she teaches.

Why am I assaulted for having legitimate questions?

No one has assaulted you, April’s Mom. I have just noticed that you have an attitude of hostility toward the Catholic Church. You are entitled to it. God has given you free will, and with it, you can rebel against the Church He created if you so desire.

I’m a Minister of the Holy Eucharist.

This is all well and good, but I remind you:

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matt. 7:21

It is His will that you obey those He has appointed over you. No amount of good works can erase His commandment in this regard.

I think you are saying that God is an “entity” we cannot possibly begin to understand? God has been revealing Himself to mankind since Adam and Eve were created. He finds a way to make Himself known. Jesus is the fullness of God made known to man. He manifested this fullness in His Church, which is why we can trust what she teaches.

 

[guanophore]

I really do understand the Protestant “Sola Scriptura” position. Jesus said a great many things, and often rebuked the Pharisees for bringing laws to the people that were impossible to follow while they, themselves, did not follow them.

One has to wonder, what Catholic teaching are you finding “impossible to follow”?

He was also condemned for healing on the Sabbath as well as other things by the Pharisees because it was against the “Law”. Jesus said he did not come to extinguish the Law, but to fulfill it. And then the Catholic Church, over the past two millennia, has put into place more “laws”.

Ahh. Sounds like we are coming to the source of the hostility!

Did you know the phrase “bind and loose” is a reference to legislative authority?

One great error I can elaborate on is …

Do you realize that your assessment of the inerrant doctrines of the faith as “great error” sounds quite arrogant? YOu claim to have “legitimate questions”,but it seems as if you have already judged the church as wanting.

Doctrine cannot be changed, April(name removed by moderator). The Church cannot add or subtract from the once for all divine deposit of faith given to the Church. Since your seem to be poorly catechized, you may not understand this, so you think that the Church has changed the doctrine.

The Church cannot teach error because Jesus promised to lead the Church into “all Truth”. If the Church taught error, then the faithful would pass through the Gates of Hell, which Jesus promised would not happen.

on is the former RCC teaching that only Catholics can go to “heaven”, that is what I was taught as a child in Catholic school. Vatican II changed all of that. The Catechism appears to have been amended. You don’t see a problem with that? I’m not being confrontational, I’m being honest.

One great error I can elaborate on is …the former RCC teaching that only Catholics can go to “heaven”, that is what I was taught as a child in Catholic school. Vatican II changed all of that.

You seem to be confused. Vatican II did not change “all that”. There is no salvation outside of Christ, and there is no separation of Christ from HIs church. Anyone who is in Christ is a member of His One Body, the Church. If you invested more time reading the catechism and less time trying to spar with schismatic sects such as sedavacantists on Facebook you might understand this.

 

[guanophore]

The Catechism appears to have been amended. You don’t see a problem with that?

I don’t see how you could know this, since you don’t appear to have read the new one.

But no, I don’t see a problem with amending the Catechism. Clearly there are persons such as yourself who have a desperate need for an update!

I’m not being confrontational, I’m being honest.

Perhaps you don’t realize that your approach is “confrontational”. Siding with Sola Scripturists who rebel against the Church founded by Christ, rejecting the authority of the Magesterium, and making judgments that the Church has “greatly erred” all represent a hostile attitude.

The only “question” you have posed here is

You don’t see a problem with that?

It seems quite confrontational.

 

[AprilsMom]

John 10:22-42, Jesus proclaims Himself, speaking of the Father
John 3:5-8, Jesus explains the work of the Holy Spirit
Jesus never speaks of the “Bible”, there was no Bible, there was the Torah; few could read, it was a spoken (memorized) sharing.
Jesus often condemned the Pharisees. He never told His followers to follow them. You are most likely referring to their attempt to trap Him but He would not allow it.
Jesus did not compose the NT Canon, the Catholic Church did
Jesus proclaimed Himself as Messiah several times but the most notable was when He spoke to the Samaritan woman at the well and told her He was the “Messiah”

What does any of this have to do with my question?

 

[AprilsMom]

2 Corinthians, 5-8 Paul proclaimed to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. There is absolutely no mention of any such thing as “purgatory” in the NT and I refuse to base belief upon Maccabees since we had JESUS SPEAKING TO US. A “hostile attitude” is then decided by you based upon legitimate questions you cannot answer?

 

[AprilsMom]

Jesus is not the “new Moses” and it’s quite possible that Moses was an amalgamation of several leaders, rather than one person. Why do you ask me questions, so you can post homilies?

 

[AprilsMom]

You said, (among too many other things): If you invested more time reading the catechism and less time trying to spar with schismatic Question for you: who are you to judge me, you know nothing about me. I have read the Catechism and I’ve also read the entire Bible three times, cover to cover, as well as intensely studied it with some fairly sophisticated Bible scholars. You know what I don’t do? I don’t waggle my finger at you and stand over you in a manner that suggests I am so much better than you are. I am not confused. And allow me to add: I READ the entire explanation of “Purgatory” as given by EWTN and they are WRONG about two very crucial things. 1. They stated that the people before the birth of Jesus believed in purgatory: wrong, they did not. 2. They stated that the Orthodox Jews (today) believe in Purgatory: wrong, they do not. The Orthodox Jewish faith focuses on this life, on good works, on following the Law. They are free to believe as they wish regarding what happens after physical death. They can believe in Sheol, they can believe in reincarnation, etc. So if EWTN was WRONG about two extremely important “proofs” they offered, what else are they WRONG about? A Priori argument must agree with everything that follows it. Now, stop harassing me. That’s what you’re doing. And, since you are pure and obviously going straight to heaven, stop throwing stones.

 

[Spyridon]

They stated that the people before the birth of Jesus believed in purgatory: wrong, they did not. 2. They stated that the Orthodox Jews (today) believe in Purgatory: wrong, they do n

You are wrong about them being wrong.

 

[guanophore]

2 Corinthians, 5-8 Paul proclaimed to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Did you think that the state of purification that prepares us for heaven is somehow not “with the Lord”? All who die in Christ will never be separated from Him, eternally. Purgatory is not some “place” that is not with the Lord!

There is absolutely no mention of any such thing as “purgatory” in the NT

Well., we read it differently, don’t me! But this is another good example of you making statements/assertions rather than posing “legitimate questions”. Statements such as this make it sound like you have already made up your mind, and are not interested in having any dialogue or asking questions.

The reason it comes across as hostile to the Catholic faith is because your do not demostrate a docile and teachable spirit, and you are vehemently stating that what you see, an dyour opinion is more important/valuable than what God has revealed to the Church.

and I refuse to base belief upon Maccabees since we had JESUS SPEAKING TO US.

You seem to believe that the book of Maccabees is not God speaking to us? This indicates that you have rejected the Catholic teaching that the Scripture. is inspired, inerrant Word of God. You have substituted your own standard for what was handed down to us from the Apostles.

As a baptized Catholic (if indeed you are), an obstinant denial of Catholic faith is very dangerous.

A “hostile attitude” is then decided by you based upon legitimate questions you cannot answer?

So far, you have not asked any legitimate questions, just made baseless assertions coming from your own spiritual rebellion. But no, I do not decide about your hostile anti-catholic attitude. The Church defines that.

Jesus never speaks of the “Bible”, there was no Bible, there was the Torah; few could read, it was a spoken (memorized) sharing.

It is true, the term “bible” came much later. As did the word Trinity. Are you denying that there is a Trinity because that word does not appear in your Bible? Jesus speaks of the Scriptures. Jesus used the Septuagint. Every Jew had to be able to read and translate the Hebrew scriptures to be Bar Mitzvaed, just as they still do today.

Jesus often condemned the Pharisees. He never told His followers to follow them. You are most likely referring to their attempt to trap Him but He would not allow it.

This spurious claim has already been refuted. If you cling to this view, it only demonstrates that you have not read much of the Gospels, or do not understand what you read.

Jesus did not compose the NT Canon, the Catholic Church did

Are you trying to say that it is not valid, because Jesus Himself did not write it?

 

[guanophore]

Jesus proclaimed Himself as Messiah several times but the most notable was when He spoke to the Samaritan woman at the well and told her He was the “Messiah”

I think if you are going to disqualify the New Testament because Jesus did not write it, then you have no basis for using any of the Gospels to make your point, whatever that is.

What does any of this have to do with my question?

I think what you have done here is make a series of opinionated assertions. I don’t think you are actually asking a question. It appears that you may have in the topic title, but you went forward to answer it for yourself, so it seems you are not really open to getting any other answers.

Now, stop harassing me.

It appears that you are taking other people having a different opinion as “harassing” you. Does this happen to you often? If someone does not agree with you, does that mean they are “throwing stones”?

 

[neophyte]

2 Corinthians, 5-8 Paul proclaimed to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

No, that’s not at all what he said. You are mistaken.

 

[guanophore]

No, that’s not at all what he said. You are mistaken.

Well, to be fair, that is an exact quote, and he did say that. He also said a LOT of other things!

It seems that @April(name removed by moderator) has been contaminated for a long time with Protestant heresies. It is puzzling why she has come here to a Catholic forum to talk about them, since it seems she has already made up her mind to embrace these heresies. She has called them “legitimate questions”, but I am seeing assertions, not questions.

It is a Protestant practice to do what has been done here- to develop an entire doctrine based on one scriptural phrase.

 

[Gorgias]

I refuse to base belief upon Maccabees since we had JESUS SPEAKING TO US

Hmm… interesting that you bring up Maccabees, because…

EWTN [is] WRONG about two very crucial things. 1. They stated that the people before the birth of Jesus believed in purgatory: wrong, they did not.

In Maccabees, we see that there were Jews “before the birth of Jesus” who believed in the efficacy of prayer for those who had already died. So… unless you’re merely asserting that they didn’t use the word ‘purgatory’ back then – which is true, but trivially so – it seems that your assertion is contradicted by the Scriptural evidence.

Jesus is not the “new Moses”

Hmm… this assertion is confusing, as well, since you also said…

I’ve also read the entire Bible three times, cover to cover, as well as intensely studied it with some fairly sophisticated Bible scholars.

One might think that, in the course of intense study with sophisticated Bible scholars, someone might have pointed out that Matthew’s Gospel literally presents Jesus as the ‘new Moses’.

 

[robertlnorman]

Here’s the simplest explanation I’ve heard:

1. There can be no sin in heaven
2. It’s possible to die with sin
3. There must be a place to purge that sin before you get to heaven

 

[Truth4]

First of Purgatory is not mentioned any were in bible. Its a Catholic version and to this time they don’t incorporated it into their version of bible. Its a teaching out of the bible they have. Catholic have to incorporate all their teaching, if they believe its true with the decree of pop in to their version of bible.
If all people who did sins and died went to purgatory and our prayers help them to remove their sins that’s good. Then why Jesus is coming again and there is a judgment day?.

 

[guanophore]

First of Purgatory is not mentioned any were in bible.

Neither is the Trinity.

The concepts are both in the New Testament, though the words were not developed until later.

Its a Catholic version and to this time they don’t incorporated it into their version of bible.

I think you are saying that Purgatory is a “catholic version”? Are you saying that non-Catholics do not include the references to purgatory in their bibles?

Catholic have to incorporate all their teaching, if they believe its true with the decree of pop in to their version of bible.

It sounds like you are saying that Catholic teaching must all be incorporated into Catholic versions of the Bible? And that everything we believe is true is decreed by the Pope? if this is what you are saying, then both these things are false.

The canon of scripture was closed in 382 AD. Nothing can be added to or subtracted from the Bible after that date.

Most of Catholic teaching has not been “decreed by the Pope”. Most of it has been handed down from the Apostles.

It seems that you, like @April(name removed by moderator) have some gross misunderstandings of the Catholic faith.

If all people who did sins and died went to purgatory and our prayers help them to remove their sins that’s good. Then why Jesus is coming again and there is a judgment day?.

Actually, the eternal penalty for sins has already been removed from all those who die in Christ. What is removed are the consequences and attachments to those sins, as nothing unclean can enter heaven.

Everyone who dies has a personal judgment when they die, at which time they know if they are going to heaven or hell.

 

[Truth4]

The canon of scripture was closed in 382 AD. Nothing can be added to or subtracted from the Bible after that date.
ok.So that means, all the teaching Catholics do out of the bible appeared after 382 AD. So then why there is no other book (from Rome) is not published with their new teachings.

 

[Reuben_J]

Catholic belief (the Church) as a deposit of faith come from the three legged stool of Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium (the teaching office). The Bible that you have now is given by the Catholic Church though probably your denomination has discarded a few books of the original Bible to fit its doctrines.

The Bible came after the Catholic Church and is only one of the three legged stool.

The teachings of the Catholic Church are well documented in the Church documents such as the canon laws, the Catechism and encyclicals of the Pope.

As for purgatory, it is long believed even before Christianity, in the Old Testament.

 

[neophyte]

Well, to be fair, that is an exact quote, and he did say that.

No, it’s not, and he didn’t.

 

[AprilsMom]

No I’m not. You don’r do any serious study; I did, in order to determine if what you wrote was correct. It was not. The Orthodox Jews also do not believe in purgatory. You can persist in your erroneous beliefs but, then, you are the lion among the lambs, are you not? You people spend hours upon hours building upon your false beliefs, your misinterpretation of scripture, but will not spend ten minutes to prove yourselves wrong. Why am I in this forum? I was accused of being among “schismatics” by some other poster and that’s absurd. I joined a FB CATHOLIC GROUP because it was supposedly examining the “paranormal”. I thought I would find educated and aware adults but instead I found a plethora of spiritual adolescents who feed themselves, over and over again, the same false doctrine they espouse and then insult, demean, and damn those who don’t agree with them. What’s the difference between you and them? None, that I can see.