Purgatory: a clear explanation?

[guanophore]

guanophore:

1)The New Testament was written by, for, and about Catholics.

No. For all who believe in christ.

Certainly non-Catholic Christians do benefit from it, but it was written by Catholics (all the disciples of Jesus were Catholic), about the Catholic faith (the One Church founded by Christ). In those days, there were no Christians that were not Catholic. Those who rejected the Catholic faith were considered heretics, pagans, or non-believing Jews.

guanophore:

2)The Scriptures were the inspired and inerrant Word of God the moment they were penned.

Dear you r not answering to my point. I know the writings of apostles are intact & inerrant.

I am glad that we agree about something! But I am afraid you are right, I am missing your point.

I am talking about what that is not their teaching and not in their books.

Why did you come to a Catholic forum to talk about what is NOT Catholic teaching and is not in Catholic books?

As pop represents and come in the order of Apostle Peter(if he is) he can add say, pop John Paul to Argentinians or for all Catholic Christians that eg. Mother Mary-Jesus-Father is the order of prayer and not Holyspirit-Jesus-Father.

It sounds like you are very pre-occupied about the “order” in which the persons of the Triune God are addressed in Prayer. Do you have any scripture that says we should have a specific order?

If after death if one can pay a last penny and be able to go to Heaven. Then why should one worry about last judgement day or repent.

I agree. Fortunately, the Catholic Church does not teach this. Purgatory is a state of cleansing for those who are already destined for heaven. Nothing unclean can enter heaven.

As per new testament and old Testament the death ones are in rest to hear the voice of their saviour for resurection

You are probably using a version of the Old Testament that has some books removed about 1200 years after the canon was closed in 382 AD.

But yes, we are in agreement that those who have died are at rest from their labors. They can pray for us, but all of their “good works” are accomplished, and they are judged based on what they did while they were in the flesh.

Its all happen at the time of judgement.

There are two parts of judgment. After each person dies, they will face a personal or particular judgment. This determines whether they are destined for heaven or hell. Then all souls will await the Coming of the Lord, when we will be reunited with our physical bodies and will face the general judgment.

 

[guanophore]

The death ones and those who are alive together hear the judgment according to their works.

Yes, we are in agreement on this point.

On that day may some are thrown to hell and some to purgatory(as u say) for further purification.

No, you are misinformed. Purgatory, the state of being purified to enter heaven, is only available to those whose sins have been forgiven by Jesus. Only He can set aside the penalty of sin.

To that day all are in rest to hear the voice of their saviour for resurection

It sounds like you have been taught the heresy of “soul sleep”.

PAUL assented to heaven, its mentioned in his books.He cant go with his body bcz its possible only after resurrection.

No.

No creature, however Blessed, can ascend to heaven. Only Jesus can ascend because He is God. We know that St. Paul is in heaven, but he did not claim this in his books. We expect that his body will be joined with him at the general judgment.

And, as per the Old Testament, atonement can be offered for the dead so they can be delivered from their sin (2nd Maccabees 12 39-45).

I think @Truth4 is using a truncated Bible that his ancestors removed this book, so he does not know.

guanophore:

One has to wonder how much time you have actually spent in the Catholic Church. Is there some rule that a prayer needs to be started “The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”?

Do you honestly believe that Catholics do not pray the Lord’s Prayer?

Yes. Sure. You are right. Catholics do in church that is 100% holy prayer giving full respect and glory to God.

I appreciate you saying this. I was concerned about some ideas you seemed to have about the way Catholics pray.

I mean to say, when we conduct prayer meeting outside the church and lead by people (not priest ). Here is the problem. One guy remove the picture of Jesus and put Mary’s picture. It upset me a lot. The man said with out mother no Jesus.

I see why you are concerned. There is not need to “remove” any image of Jesus. It is true that God chose Mary to be the tabernacle in which the Son of God would be formed, but Jesus should never be separated from Mary.

 

[guanophore]

False. It’s just opposite, for Jesus to born, mary was created. " What Mary answered, “I am the Lord’s servant". This people are taking a wrong way.Lord is Jesus itself.

I am not sure I am getting your point here, but we are in agreement that Mary was created especially by God to be the Mother of Jesus. She had a special role in salvation that no one else has ever had, or ever will have. I agree, she sets the example for all of us with her faith. We must all say, as she does “I am the Lord’s servant”!

I appreciate I would like to chat more with u in a friendly manner bcz. We both want the God to be praised. Our God is a jealous God as per Scriptures and God don’t like to share his Glory with anyone. If we Glorify others, that is wrong in the eyes of God

God allows others to participate in His Glory, as He did with Moses, when God allowed Moses’ face to glow with light. In the same way, we can be vessels through which His glory is manifested. But I do agree with you, nothing should replace God as a focus of our worship.

 

[Reuben_J]

I mean to say, when we conduct prayer meeting outside the church and lead by people (not priest ). Here is the problem. One guy remove the picture of Jesus and put Mary’s picture. It upset me a lot. The man said with out mother no Jesus. False. It’s just opposite, for Jesus to born, mary was created. " What Mary answered, “I am the Lord’s servant". This people are taking a wrong way.Lord is Jesus itself.

I agree with you but what is your point in telling this? Do you base your disagreement in this one person’s action?

As for Mary. she could have said “no”. If that happened, then the Gospel would be entirely different from what we have now. Not that God could not find another woman to bear Jesus but who knows, the Gospel would be not what it is now.

 

[Reuben_J]

Is there some rule that a prayer needs to be started “The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”?

Well, the same could be asked, is there a rule that a prayer should not start with “In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit?”

There are prayers that always end, “In Jesus’ name.” Is there a rule that it should be like that?

 

[Truth4]

2 Corinthians 12

Paul is speaking of himself in the third person…and he is giving his personal testimony of the time when he was caught up into the third heaven. He says it happened 14 years ago and as you count back and study the Book of Acts, it is probable that this took place on his first missionary journey and perhaps when he was stoned at Lystra and left for dead…maybe that’s when the Lord caught him up into the third heaven and gave him a glimpse of that…we don’t know that for certain.

 

[Truth4]

why resurrection? bcz for the good and bad deed a man have to receive it on his body. If one do believe in Purgatory then also will happen after resurrection. Good ones will enter heaven with their new incarnated body.
1 Corinthians 5:5
hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
All destruction is on the flesh to save the spirit of a man. God never torment anyone but Satan.So its wrong to say, people are tormented (for purification) and they are crying in pain for others prayer in Purgatory.
We are all like Gold and silver, purification is on our body and it is in this world and not in any other place.

 

[Truth4]

“Prayer and miracle” not at all. I am talking about people run behind miracle and start worshiping and praising saints more than Jesus. How a Saint can do miracle? sure with the permission of Jesus. So the Glory goes to Jesus but people forget the truth and praise the Saints.

 

[guanophore]

Paul is speaking of himself in the third person…and he is giving his personal testimony of the time when he was caught up into the third heaven. He says it happened 14 years ago and as you count back and study the Book of Acts, it is probable that this took place on his first missionary journey and perhaps when he was stoned at Lystra and left for dead…maybe that’s when the Lord caught him up into the third heaven and gave him a glimpse of that

I noticed that the sentence structure in this paragraph is quite different from other posts you have made so I googled it. It appears to have come from this web page:

2Co 12:01-10 | Paul’s Visit to Heaven

Text: 2 Corinthians 12 Paul is speaking of himself in the third person…and he is giving his personal testimony of the time when he was caught up into the third heaven. He says it happened 14 years …

rondunn.com

I was curious why you would cut and paste from this website, and what you think this paragraph has to do with purgatory, if anything? Are you saying that purgatory must not exist, since Paul was stoned, left for dead, and did not write about it in his vision?

I am wondering if there is more than one person using your account, since there seems to be a variety of writing styles in the posts attributed to this account.

 

[guanophore]

God never torment anyone but Satan.So its wrong to say, people are tormented (for purification) and they are crying in pain for others prayer in Purgatory.

Purgatory is purification from sin, not the torment of hell. No one is purified from sin who is not destined for heaven. I am not sure what you mean by “they are crying out for pain for others in purgatory”? Perhaps you do not believe that one person can suffer on behalf of another?

Perhaps you do not really believe that Jesus was crucified, and suffered for our sins, or that he cried out in pain?

We are all like Gold and silver, purification is on our body and it is in this world and not in any other place.

Not all sins are in the body. All sin has root in the soul also. Souls who are separated from their bodies can both experience comfort, and pain. Purgatory purifies the soul from attachment to sin. If you have ever tried to give up a sin or a bad habit, then you know that it can be a great struggle. It is painful.

 

[Truth4]

.
Purgatory: Its by Roman Catholic doctrine, a place or state of suffering inhabited by the (souls of sinners) who are expiating their sins before going to heaven.
1 John 1:8 “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us”
Then all who born in this world are sinners except Jesus. Is all the saints and Apostle are sinless?
Why Jesus took all miseries on his body?Why not in his soul?. Did he experienced comfort and pain in his soul too?

 

[Truth4]

Sorry. It’s actually for one of my friend in another conversation.
It’s is cut and paste to show an evidence from bible about Apostle Paul’s experience of caught up in into 3 heaven.
Its to explain where our God, the holy of holy’s thrown. It’s 1st heaven.
John 14:2My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
it differs to all according to ones deed,
Even resurrection differ.Rev20:4

 

[pablope]

Scott Hahn’s article gives references…its beginning and roots in the OT:

Purgatory: Holy Fire

 

[pablope]

St. Martin_de_Porres, I think that all belief and every doctrine must have been stated by Jesus, yes. I know that the Councils are supposedly inspired by the Holy Spirit but certainly you can agree there have been many errors? The thief on the cross next to Jesus did not go to “purgatory”, Jesus promised immediate “paradise” that day.

The thief, did indeed to go Paradise, but not “Heaven” as you might think.

Paradise, in this context, does not mean Heaven…but Abraham’s bosom…

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01055a.htm

A local discrimination, however, existed among them, according to their deeds during their mortal life. In the unseen world of the dead the souls of the righteous occupied an abode or compartment of their own which was distinctly separated by a wall or a chasm from the abode or compartment to which the souls of the wicked were consigned. The latter was a place of torments usually spoken of as Gehenna (cf. Matthew 5:29, 30; 18:9; Mark 9:42 sqq. in the Latin Vulgate) — the other, a place of bliss and security known under the names of “Paradise” (cf. Luke 23:43) and “the Bosom of Abraham” (Luke 16:22-23)

And this is further supported by Peter’s epistle, where he recounts where Jesus was between His death on Good Friday and the Resurrection…

1Peter 3…18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which[c] he went and proclaimed[d] to the spirits in prison, 20 because[e] they formerly did not obey

And Icons depicting the Good Thief indicate this early Christian belief and teaching and understanding.

 

[pablope]

The canon of scripture was closed in 382 AD. Nothing can be added to or subtracted from the Bible after that date.
ok.So that means, all the teaching Catholics do out of the bible appeared after 382 AD. So then why there is no other book (from Rome) is not published with their new teachings.

Actually…you are misinformed.

Lots of Catholic teachings started to be written by those chosen by the Apostles to carry on their ministry…and forms the basics of Catholic teachings.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/churchfathers.html

I would recommend you to start with the Didache, then move on to the letter of Clement of Rome to Corinth…which was considered as “inspired” by the Corithians…and read in their liturgy or Mass…and on to Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp and Ireneous of Lyons.

 

[pablope]

1)The New Testament was written by, for, and about Catholics.
No. For all who believe in christ.

The first Christians were Catholics…so when the Bible was indeed put together…it was intended for Catholics…and one of the purposes was to have a standard set of readings during our Mass or Divine Liturgy.

2)The Scriptures were the inspired and inerrant Word of God the moment they were penned.

So…where this did come from?

 

[guanophore]

Purgatory: Its by Roman Catholic doctrine, a place or state of suffering inhabited by the (souls of sinners) who are expiating their sins before going to heaven.

I am curious where you came by this definition, Truth4. Purgatory, or the state of purification, is not inhabited by “the souls of sinners”. On the contrary, it is the souls of the redeemed - those who have been saved by grace, through faith, that are purified for heaven.

Do you agree that nothing unclean can enter heaven?

Then all who born in this world are sinners except Jesus.

Are you talking about original sin, or personal sin?

It has been taught that John the Baptist was regenerated by Christ while he was yet in his mothers’ womb, and was sanctified from that point.

Mary was sanctified at the moment of her conception, so that, by special grace she could provide her flesh for His flesh.

Is all the saints and Apostle are sinless?

All the saints and Apostles are saved by grace, through faith.

Why Jesus took all miseries on his body?Why not in his soul?. Did he experienced comfort and pain in his soul too?

Yes, He was very grieved to suffer. Jesus was fully human, and experienced all the pains and suffering that a human would suffer being crucified.

 

[guanophore]

Purgatory: Its by Roman Catholic doctrine, a place or state of suffering inhabited by the (souls of sinners) who are expiating their sins before going to heaven.

I tried to find the source of this text, since you did not cite a source. It appears to come from the Oxford Dictionary.

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.lexico.com

I am interested in seeing a Catholic source for this definition. If it comes from a source other than Catholic, it is not possible for your to succeed in accusing the Catholic Church of actually teaching it.