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BarryI
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I have to comment here on the scripture you keep referring to in 1Corinthians .Maybe it’s me, but Paul is talking to the brothers about building on the foundation that Christ has laid out before them. He is clearly telling them to be diligent in how they build on that foundation by preaching to others. He was giving them a warning telling them in an analogy, do to speak, if you build a house out of straw or hay. , it will eventually collapse. If you build it out of concrete, it will stand forever. So if the foundation you build upon is weak,meaning the faith of your congregation, it will eventually fall away .If it does, it will be shown to all but you will still be saved as by your faith. You were still doing God’s will, you just didnt preach hard enough. That’s it. Nothing more. I don’t see anything here that would suggest a place called purgatory., but hey, that’s just me. Until someone can scripturally show me, then I cannot believe.
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LionHeart777
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Hi there.
Here’s 1 Corinthians 3:11-15:
Source: drbo.org/chapter/53003.htm
Yes, the foundation is Christ, and the various elements are men’s works. The precious elements withstand the fire but the “wood”, “hay”, and “stubble”, do not. Notice that the man himself goes through the fire and he is saved “yet so as by fire.” One cannot separate a man’s works from the man-they aren’t floating around. All go through the fire but the man with “wood”, “hay”, and “stubble” on his soul “suffers loss” bet is “saved, yet so as by fire.” Note: Most if not all of what I say here is from Tim Staples (he says much more) in his debate with James White on 1 Corinthians 3:15.
Now, so you can see that this is not some novel interpretation of this text I offer the following again (which I already posted in here):
"While this passage presents considerable difficulty, it is regarded by many of the Fathers and theologians as evidence for the existence of an intermediate state in which the dross of lighter transgressions will be burnt away, and the soul thus purified will be saved. This, according to Bellarmine (De Purg., I, 5), is the interpretation commonly given by the Fathers and theologians; and he cites to this effect:
St. Ambrose (commentary on the text, and Sermo xx in Ps. cxvii),
St. Jerome, (Comm. in Amos, c. iv),
St. Augustine (Enarration on Psalm 37),
St. Gregory (Dial., IV, xxxix), and
Origen (Hom. vi in Exod.)."
Source: Hanna, Edward. “Purgatory.” The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 12. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1911. 2 Jul. 2013 http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm.
Here is Origen on this text [writing in the A.D. 200’s]:
“‘For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (1 Corinthians 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works.’ (P.G., XIII, col. 445, 448).”
Source: Ibid.
Here is St. Augustine in A.D. 413:
“‘If the baptized person fulfills the obligations demanded of a Christian, he does well. If he does not–provided he keeps the faith, without which he would perish forever–no matter in what sin or impurity remains, he will be saved, as it were, by fire; as one who has built on the foundation, which is Christ, not gold, silver, and precious stones, but wood, hay straw, that is, not just and chasted works but wicked and unchaste works.’ Augustine, Faith and Works, 1:1 (A.D. 413).”
Source: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10938353&postcount=229
Continued…
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LionHeart777
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Continued…
Also, previously in this post I cited St. Matthew 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 and backed it up with citations by St. Cyprian of Carthage (A.D. 200’s) and Tertullian (A.D. 100’s).
Finally, I cited Matthew 12:32 in this post, and backed it up with the following quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
“According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words prove that in the next life ‘some sins will be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire.’ St. Augustine also argues ‘that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come’ (City of God XXI.24). The same interpretation is given by Gregory the Great (Dial., IV, xxxix); St. Bede (commentary on this text); St. Bernard (Sermo lxvi in Cantic., n. 11) and other eminent theological writers.”
Source: Hanna, Edward. “Purgatory.” The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 12. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1911. 2 Jul. 2013 http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm.
Regarding this topic and including 1 Corinthians 3:15 I would highly recommend Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI’s Encyclical “Spe Salvi”, which someone in the thread has already cited and which Tim Staples cites in the aforementioned debate. Especially, sections (for lack of a better word) 45-48.
Also, previously in this post I cited St. Matthew 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 and backed it up with citations by St. Cyprian of Carthage (A.D. 200’s) and Tertullian (A.D. 100’s).
Finally, I cited Matthew 12:32 in this post, and backed it up with the following quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
“According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words prove that in the next life ‘some sins will be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire.’ St. Augustine also argues ‘that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come’ (City of God XXI.24). The same interpretation is given by Gregory the Great (Dial., IV, xxxix); St. Bede (commentary on this text); St. Bernard (Sermo lxvi in Cantic., n. 11) and other eminent theological writers.”
Source: Hanna, Edward. “Purgatory.” The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 12. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1911. 2 Jul. 2013 http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm.
Regarding this topic and including 1 Corinthians 3:15 I would highly recommend Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI’s Encyclical “Spe Salvi”, which someone in the thread has already cited and which Tim Staples cites in the aforementioned debate. Especially, sections (for lack of a better word) 45-48.
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pablope
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1 Corinthians 3:11-15:
Quote:
[11] For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. [12] Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: [13] Every man’ s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’ s work, of what sort it is. [14] If any man’ s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man’ s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
I will let Scott Hahn dissect the passage: catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html
In 1st Corinthians 3, he’s talking about how we are in Christ. We’re temples with Christ. We’re His body and yet we are also temples as well. We are God’s field,
His building, and in verse 9, the kind of building we are. There’s a temple and he goes on to describe how we have got to be careful then. If we are all God’s temples, temples of the Holy Spirit, we better be very circumspect and prudent about the way we build.
“According to the grace of God given me,” verse 10, “like a skilled master builder, I laid a foundation and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it.” The foundation work is Christ. Make no mistake about that. Our works are not our foundation unless our house is going to crumble. Then we and our works are not the foundation, but Christ is the foundation.
"For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become manifest for the day will disclose it.
Because it will be revealed with fire and the fire will test which sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward." In addition to salvation, he will receive a reward: thrones, crowns, whatever you want to say.
“If any man’s work is burned up,” the wood, the hay and the straw, “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss.”
Notice that wood is not as flammable as hay is consumed. So there are degrees of good works, gold and silver and so on, and degrees of venial sins. Jesus even talked about somebody would receive fewer stripes than another person. He talks about how, I think in Matthew 5, you won’t get out until you pay the last farthing or the last penny. So it depends on what we have done, what we will do because we have got to be purified in the Holy Spirit of God, which is fiery love. We have got to take up our cross. We are saved by Christ who is our foundation, but we have to build and what we build has to undergo the fiery judgment on the day.
Now the day might refer to the day of judgment, but from earliest times people have seen that Paul is also teaching that the day of judgment is anticipated actually and really and provisionally when each person dies. That’s when Jesus comes for us. We speak of the “coming of the Lord.”
Well, a kind of secondary coming is when He comes for us, and the day of judgment is when we die and appear before him in that sense.
“If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss,” or change the emphasis. “…he will suffer, loss.”
Though he himself will be saved, he will have suffering to undergo but only as through fire. But you might say, “Well, it’s only wood and stubble that’s going to be burned up. It’s not him. He is the temple. It isn’t just these externals to him. His soul is the temple of the Holy Spirit. His soul is made of parts for the foundation is Christ, but there is some gold, perhaps some silver, but also some wood and stock in His soul. His soul is built up like a temple with all kinds of combustible elements. He will suffer loss. Though he himself will be saved but only as through fire.”
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BarryI
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Once again I have to comment that if you believe this, then you believe the concepts of “man’s” idea that purgatory exists because that is what they believe? You then believe them over Jesus , and thus, therefore call Jesus a liar.True he sent the Holy Spirit , but he sent it to the Apostles to guide them and to remind them of the things Jesus said to them and taught them. Why then , if there was something as important as “purgatory” would Jesus not have enlightened them about it. Remember, Jesus was sent to reveal all the truth and what and how to live and obtain eternal life through Him.He came and gave His life for man’s salvation.When we die, if we have accepted and followed Christ throughout our daily lives, then all our sins are forgiven at death. The wages of sin is death. So that being said,why did Jesus not tell the disciples this. He knew they would have needed to know this,and why not tell them when He was with them. He didn’t leave it as a secret for them to figure out. He knew they were simple men of simple intelligence and would have surely revealed this to them. And I’m sure they would have asked, but no one did. Why? Because there was no place. I marvel at some of the answers as to how some explain the rich man and Lazarus where Jesus clearly speaks of a great chasm between the two places. He never indicated there was a third (purgatory). Man did.
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pablope
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LionHeart777
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Hi BarryI, allow me to respond.
What you don’t find is that with the death of the Apostles that some years later his Church would recognize the Canon and after that it would be up to every individual to find the truth for his or herself relying on the Holy Spirit and the Bible alone (not that the Holy Spirit couldn’t do that, it’s just not how Christ left things.) And this would also beg the question? Whose Bible; the Protestant? Catholic? Greek Orthodox? Ethiopian Orthodox?
“place” but it is definitely a “state” of post-mortem purification of the soul. You have to remember that the story of the rich man and Lazarus happened before the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Before Christ opened up Heaven the dead were in a place called Abraham’s Bosom. We disagree that Jesus never alluded to a final purification. And you are a man telling me this.
You have created a false dichotomy for me to choose between here. I have already given you evidence from the Gospel of St. Matthew, but you don’t accept it. Are you not a man trying to convince me of your own private interpretation of Scripture? Well, we disagree on these interpretations. Where do we go from here? This is why Jesus left us with an authoritative Church (Mt: 18:17).
The Apostles then formed the government of the Church He established and far from indicating that this government would cease with the death of the Apostles, He indicated the opposite; that it would continue until the end of time (Mt. 28:20). So logically (and Biblically), it carries on with the successors of the Apostles in union with the successor of the leader of the Apostles, St. Peter.
What you don’t find is that with the death of the Apostles that some years later his Church would recognize the Canon and after that it would be up to every individual to find the truth for his or herself relying on the Holy Spirit and the Bible alone (not that the Holy Spirit couldn’t do that, it’s just not how Christ left things.) And this would also beg the question? Whose Bible; the Protestant? Catholic? Greek Orthodox? Ethiopian Orthodox?
For one I argue that He did (see my Scriptural citations.) Second, you have to realize that prayers for the dead were part of Judaism (and still are today.) We see this in 2 Maccabees (written 200 years or so before Christ.) Also, one can see this in the Jewish historian Josephus’ writing, written in the 1st century A.D. Would you like me to cite one or both of these?
How do you suppose that a post-mortem purification was a secret that Jesus left for them to figure out? They already had a basis to work with. And Purgatory is not necessarily a
“place” but it is definitely a “state” of post-mortem purification of the soul. You have to remember that the story of the rich man and Lazarus happened before the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Before Christ opened up Heaven the dead were in a place called Abraham’s Bosom. We disagree that Jesus never alluded to a final purification. And you are a man telling me this.
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pablope
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I suggest that you check the icons discussed in this thread. They depict and visualize early church teachings…which confirms the connection of early church teaching to todays:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=725074
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steve_b
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LionHeart777
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BarryI,
Also, using (and playing off of) Jimmy Akin’s argument:
Scripture tells us that nothing unclean will enter into Heaven (Revelation 21:27).
Yet most of us are still sinning at the end of this life.
If you agree with these two,
How do you reconcile this? What do you believe happens to “fix” this in those who are saved between death and Heaven?
Also, using (and playing off of) Jimmy Akin’s argument:
Scripture tells us that nothing unclean will enter into Heaven (Revelation 21:27).
Yet most of us are still sinning at the end of this life.
If you agree with these two,
How do you reconcile this? What do you believe happens to “fix” this in those who are saved between death and Heaven?
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steve_b
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That’s not exactly what’s being said.
Take another look. An expanded citation for further context 1 Corinthians 3:10-20 commentary included in the citation
There is one foundation and Jesus is the cornerstone and Peter and the apostles are the foundation. It’s the Catholic Church which is the right faith. Paul is talking about the people on THAT foundation of the Catholic Church… Each baptised person is a temple of the Holy Spirit. Since all will have their work judged by fire, the good work they do will survive and they get a reward, the bad work is burned up and they sufer loss, but they will be saved. The “Day” i.e. the Day one dies, this is revealed with fire in one’s particular judgement. Fire is the classic element of purification. That’s a process only for those who die without mortal sin on their soul iow they die in a state of grace. Otherwise a person goes to hell.
There are no other foundations. iow Joe six pak can’t go off and start his own organization and call it a church. The very act of dissent and division from the Catholic Church, is a mortal sin and condemned [Gal 5:19-21, Rom 16:17-20] and that condemnation has no expiration date to it.
Barry,
In case this point hasn’t been made, the NT scriptures were written by Catholics for Catholics to be used in the Catholic Church. That’s right, Peter Paul Matthew Mark Luke John James Jude are all Catholics. The Catholic Church collected only 27 books and canonized them calling them scripture. It’s a Catholic book for the Catholic Church.
that’s why St Ignatius, during apostolic times, ordained by apostles, was bishop of Antioch from ~69 a.d. to ~107a.d. disciple of St John the apostle, called the Church the Catholic Church in writing. Epistle to the Smyrnæans and those who leave (schism) the Church are condemned Epistle to the Philadelphians just as Paul warned [Gal 5:19-21]
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BarryI
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I have to correct you on that one, Peter, Paul,Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James and Jude were Christians,being from Christ. Actually , they were really all Jews who started the Christian movement.The name Catholic did not come about til centuries later
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BarryI
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Can you please direct me in the Bible to the passage where Jesus is telling the Apostles about sins being purged. He knew man to be curious and even said Ask and you will recieve, seek, and you will find, knock, and the door will be opened to you.That is why I keep asking and searching and knocking. I do not believe Jesus would have left a puzzle for the Apostles to figure out and then tell the world about it. he would have plainly told them the truth to pass on to all believers. Heck, even non believers of Jesus have heard of the concept of purgatory.Doesn’t mean there is one. If Jesus told a parable in the day he walked the earth and the disciples were confused, they asked Him to elaborate on it. He didn’t say, hey fellas, I’m leaving, time for me to go. By the way, everything I told you , figure out for yourself , then go tell the world. To do this would have set them up to a life of disagreement with each other and different teachings. He didn’t. that is why He told them the advocate would remind them of everything He told them.
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LionHeart777
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I believe I have addressed your points already and/or dealt with your argument. You haven’t responded to those points. If you go back and read them, I think you will see that you have erected a “straw man” or maybe more in this response.
Also, regarding my last post, if you don’t want to answer the questions I posed of you, I cannot make you.
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steve_b
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I have to correct you on that one.
Yes they were 1st called Christian at Antioch [Acts 11:26]. Ignatius was Bishop of Antioch from ~69 - ~107 a.d. That’s around the time (~77 a.d.) it’s thought the book of Acts was written. That book wouldn’t become part of the canon as the other 26 books, till 381 a.d. at the council of Rome.
Where would Ignatius, being a disciple of St John, get the name of the Church as the Catholic Church? And no body objected.
Acts 9:31 So the church throughout all ἐκκλησία,καθ’,ὅλης ,τῆς ,Judea and Galilee and Sama’ria…"
ἐκκλησία,καθ’,ὅλης,τῆς, = Church….Kata…Holos…the = the Catholic Church
The English word catholic is a transliteration of the Greek katholikos which is a compound word from kata, which means according to, and holos, which means whole. catholic.com/tracts/what-catholic-means
Therefore, Barry
From the 1st century to the 21st century the Church is the Catholic Church.
- St IgnatiusBp of Antioch, ~69 a.d. - ~107 a.d., ordained by apostles, disciple of St John the apostle, called the Church the Catholic Church Epistle to the Smyrnæansof which schismatics won’t be going to heaven Epistle to the Philadelphians
- St Polycarp, Bp Smyrna, disciple of St John called the Church the “Catholic Church” The Martyrdom of Polycarp
- Muratorian canon earlychristianwritings.com/text/muratorian.html
- Irenaeus ~180 a.d. wrote “Against Heresies” called the Church the “Catholic Church” Adversus haereses [Bk 1 Ch 10 v 3], and also Irenaeus who was taught by Polycarp, teaches all must agree with Rome [Bk 3, Ch 3, v 2-3]Chapter 3
- Cyprian~250 a.d. Epistle 54
- The Nicene Creed, 325 a.d., it’s a matter of faith to believe in the “One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church”
- Augustine ~395 There are many other things that most justly keep me in her * bosom. . . . The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep, down to the present episcopate. And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house.Against the Epistle of Manichaeus Called Fundamental
- etc etc etc
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pablope
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What century do you think the name “catholic” was used?
You do not agree with Ignatius of Antioch then, who coined the word Catholic Church in the 1st century? ?
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans
Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishop
See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.
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pablope
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steve_b
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When Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 3:10-20 where did that teaching come from? How did he come to understand and teach that?
All scripture is inspired, and this is scripture. So where did Paul get this from? It can’t be from himself. During the 3 years of Jesus ministry Paul wasn’t there with Jesus. Before he became Paul he was Saul, and off heavily persecuting the Church. He was responsible for the stoning of Stephen the first deacon to be martyred. So where did Paul get his teaching in 1 Cor 3:10-20? There is absolutely no question, that passage discribes purification by fire, afterr death, and for only the one who is already saved. Which means that person died in the state of grace, but needed purification after death before entrance to heaven.
So where did it come from?
John 14:25-26 the HS will remind the apostles of everything Jesus taught
John 16:12-15 the HS will lead them into all truth, He doesn’t speak on His own, but only what he hears…from Jesus
Therefore, what Paul taught in 1 Cor 3:10 -20 came from Jesus via the HS
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The problem is, you’re now seeing Protestant theology is heavily flawed.
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pablope
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Just to add something to Steve’s on St. Paul:
Galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.
Paul had a direct revelation from Christ. Yet, from the passages above, he goes to visit Cephas/Peter and submits himself to Peter and the apostles. Gal 2: 2 states his purpose…to present his gospel/message to make sure it is in line with the Apostles and what they were handed down from Christ.
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