Purgatory: a place of torment or not?

[steve_b]

Have to comment here. Are not all of your sins forgiven at death ? Did not God himself say the wages of sin are death

Since you’re Protestant, I’ll quote from the NIV, a favorite among Protestants.

1 Jn 5:16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

With respect to your question, what do you do with those passages from 1 Jn?

 

[JonathonofOhio]

Have to comment here. Are not all of your sins forgiven at death ? Did not God himself say the wages of sin are death

God forgave the incredulity of Moses and Aaron, but in punishment kept them from the “land of promise” (Numbers 20:12). The Lord took away the sin of David, but the life of the child was forfeited because David had made God’s enemies blaspheme His Holy Name (2 Samuel 12:13-14). In the New Testament as well as in the Old, alms giving and fasting, and in general penitential acts are the real fruits of repentance (Matthew 3:8; Luke 17:3; 3:3).

“But I say unto you, that every idle word which men shall say, they shall render an account of it in judgment-day” - Matthew 12:36

Scripture teaches us that Jesus died for the sin of man. The first man brought sin and death into the world by disobeying God, and God made a covenant with Man and gave him the Law. But the Law was not enough to save man, for no one that died ever went into heaven. So God made a New Covenant with man, and this Covenant was sealed in the Blood of the Lamb, Jesus Christ, who died for the sin of man. Nothing we do, not even our own dying, pays the debt of sin.

And so we all must die a physical death, and we are still susceptible to sin. God offers us a way to repent and atone (pay the debt) for those sins through alms giving and other penitential acts. Regardless, we must account for every single one of our sins. Since no man is perfect, through Jesus Christ are we able to be purified in fire upon our death so that we can be found worthy to enter into the presence of God. Paul explains this process to us in 1 Cor 3, which I quoted in a previous post.

 

[BarryI]

Already did in my previous post.

The following Church Father’s all agree that it is what Paul is talking about:

St. Ambrose (commentary on the text, and Sermo xx in Ps. cxvii),
St. Jerome, (Comm. in Amos, c. iv),
St. Augustine (Enarration on Psalm 37),
St. Gregory (Dial., IV, xxxix), and
Origen (Hom. vi in Exod.).

You can read more about where it comes from and what proofs are offered here:
newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

If that isn’t good enough for you, well, I don’t know what else to tell you.

Ok I read your previous post but it did not reference any Bible passage that specifically says purgatory is a place. Neither did Jesus nor any of the Old or New Testament writers say there is a place called purgatory, so please, if you will refer to the specific section and verse that says this. I am not trying to be a wise guy here, I just want to see it for myself , as maybe. I missed it written in my reading. Thank you very much for your help

 

[steve_b]

Ok I read your previous post but it did not reference any Bible passage that specifically says purgatory is a place. Neither did Jesus nor any of the Old or New Testament writers say there is a place called purgatory, so please, if you will refer to the specific section and verse that says this. I am not trying to be a wise guy here, I just want to see it for myself , as maybe. I missed it written in my reading. Thank you very much for your help

Don’t get caught up on “place”. We think of the after life as different places Heaven Hell Purgatory because we’re corporeal beings. We think in terms of time and space. One thing is for sure, there won’t be any crossing over certain realities in the after life. Luke 16:19-31 Notice memory intellect and will are fully functional in the after life.

I would be interested in you thoughts on this post. It’s a temporary existence before heaven, which doesn’t appear to be pleasant. One is saved so it’s not hell, but it sure isn’t heaven. Heaven comes after this process is over.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10722856&postcount=20

 

[JonathonofOhio]

Ok I read your previous post but it did not reference any Bible passage that specifically says purgatory is a place. Neither did Jesus nor any of the Old or New Testament writers say there is a place called purgatory, so please, if you will refer to the specific section and verse that says this. I am not trying to be a wise guy here, I just want to see it for myself , as maybe. I missed it written in my reading. Thank you very much for your help

The problem with your logic is you are looking for a specific word that wasn’t coined until well after the New Testament was written, and then only accepting the existence of the word as some sort of proof of a doctrine.

The word Purgatory comes from the Latin word " purgare", which means purification. Languages evolve over time and new words are added to describe a concept or something that previously had no word ‘assigned to it’. The doctrine was unchallenged until the middle ages, so it would be highly unlikely that anyone would bother to ascribe a word to a doctrine that everyone universally accepted, that was so ingrained in the faith. And it should be no surprise considering that the whole of Christianity was born out of Judaism, and offerings for the dead were known to ancient Jewish practice. In early Christianity, prayer for the dead is attested since at least the 2nd century, evidenced in part by the tomb inscription of Abercius, Bishop of Hierapolis in Phrygia (d. c. 200). Celebration of the Eucharist for the dead is attested to since at least the 3rd century.

If you want to pose an argument against the existence of a doctrine based on a missing word, then there is no reason to continue a discussion. ‘When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. But, when I became a man, I put away the things of a child.’…in the case of Purgatory you must look for the concept, the teaching and not the word itself or you will never see it.

 

[BarryI]

Don’t get caught up on “place”. We think of the after life as different places Heaven Hell Purgatory because we’re corporeal beings. We think in terms of time and space. One thing is for sure, there won’t be any crossing over certain realities in the after life. Luke 16:19-31 Notice memory intellect and will are fully functional in the after life.

I would be interested in you thoughts on this post. It’s a temporary existence before heaven, which doesn’t appear to be pleasant. One is saved so it’s not hell, but it sure isn’t heaven. Heaven comes after this process is over.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10722856&postcount=20

My thoughts on this post are; Jesus as using a parable here to show that there is one who has gained eternal life and one who has condemned himself to eternal condemnation which is total seperation from God. Once again nowhere in this parable did Jesus ever mention a place called purgatory nor did he insinuate any such existence. He was using this parable as an example of humbleness and ignorance. Lazarus the humble beggar and Dives the wealthy ignorant man oblivious to everyone and every situation and who refuses to seek the truth which is his own condennation.Jesus didnt condemn him , he condemned himself by ignoring those in need, but no mention or insinuation here of a so called purgatory

 

[JonathonofOhio]

My thoughts on this post are; Jesus as using a parable here to show that there is one who has gained eternal life and one who has condemned himself to eternal condemnation which is total seperation from God. Once again nowhere in this parable did Jesus ever mention a place called purgatory nor did he insinuate any such existence. He was using this parable as an example of humbleness and ignorance. Lazarus the humble beggar and Dives the wealthy ignorant man oblivious to everyone and every situation and who refuses to seek the truth which is his own condennation.Jesus didnt condemn him , he condemned himself by ignoring those in need, but no mention or insinuation here of a so called purgatory

Actually it is true that this parable doesn’t have anything to do with Purgatory. It is based on the Jewish belief that the souls of the departed went to the abode of the dead called Sheol. Not every part of Sheol was a place of torment. The NT refers to the place of torment in Sheol (Hades in Greek) as Gehenna. Jesus refers to the place of peace as “the Bosom of Abraham” and “Paradise”. It is clear from His parable that both places were in the same place but they were separated. But Barryl isn’t exactly correct that the man condemned himself. Scripture teaches us that It is God who judges us. We do not judge ourselves. The rich man was found guilty of a grave sin. The thing the man is guilty of? Notice the parable doesn’t say the man was a sinner. In fact he could very well had been going to the temple regularly. Was it all because he was rich? No, simply being rich is not a sin. He was guilty of not loving, of not carrying, of having the means to help someone and then not helping. It was his works, or lack thereof that condemned him to the place of torment.

*“Depart from me, you cursed,
into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat:
I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink.
I was a stranger, and you took me not in:
naked, and you covered me not:
sick and in prison, and you did not visit me.”
*

 

[BarryI]

Don’t get caught up on “place”. We think of the after life as different places Heaven Hell Purgatory because we’re corporeal beings. We think in terms of time and space. One thing is for sure, there won’t be any crossing over certain realities in the after life. Luke 16:19-31 Notice memory intellect and will are fully functional in the after life.

I would be interested in you thoughts on this post. It’s a temporary existence before heaven, which doesn’t appear to be pleasant. One is saved so it’s not hell, but it sure isn’t heaven. Heaven comes after this process is over.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10722856&postcount=20

The problem with your logic is you are looking for a specific word that wasn’t coined until well after the New Testament was written, and then only accepting the existence of the word as some sort of proof of a doctrine.

The word Purgatory comes from the Latin word " purgare", which means purification. Languages evolve over time and new words are added to describe a concept or something that previously had no word ‘assigned to it’. The doctrine was unchallenged until the middle ages, so it would be highly unlikely that anyone would bother to ascribe a word to a doctrine that everyone universally accepted, that was so ingrained in the faith. And it should be no surprise considering that the whole of Christianity was born out of Judaism, and offerings for the dead were known to ancient Jewish practice. In early Christianity, prayer for the dead is attested since at least the 2nd century, evidenced in part by the tomb inscription of Abercius, Bishop of Hierapolis in Phrygia (d. c. 200). Celebration of the Eucharist for the dead is attested to since at least the 3rd century.

If you want to pose an argument against the existence of a doctrine based on a missing word, then there is no reason to continue a discussion. ‘When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. But, when I became a man, I put away the things of a child.’…in the case of Purgatory you must look for the concept, the teaching and not the word itself or you will never see it.

You are right. I guess I am just not into believing Doctrines that came from the minds of man. Sorry that I don’t believe in purgatory but only the Bible truths. And the Catholic Hierarchy over the years were just like the Jewish leaders of old and inserting their own laws to their own words just like now. So until someone can show me proof of a place or state of being after death for “purging ones sins” that Jesus or any of the Bible writers spoke of, then I will not believe someone’s interpretation of it. Thank you. It was a pleasure

 

[BarryI]

Actually it is true that this parable doesn’t have anything to do with Purgatory. It is based on the Jewish belief that the souls of the departed went to the abode of the dead called Sheol. Not every part of Sheol was a place of torment. The NT refers to the place of torment in Sheol (Hades in Greek) as Gehenna. Jesus refers to the place of peace as “the Bosom of Abraham” and “Paradise”. It is clear from His parable that both places were in the same place but they were separated. But Barryl isn’t exactly correct that the man condemned himself. Scripture teaches us that It is God who judges us. We do not judge ourselves. The rich man was found guilty of a grave sin. The thing the man is guilty of? Notice the parable doesn’t say the man was a sinner. In fact he could very well had been going to the temple regularly. Was it all because he was rich? No, simply being rich is not a sin. He was guilty of not loving, of not carrying, of having the means to help someone and then not helping. It was his works, or lack thereof that condemned him to the place of torment.

*“Depart from me, you cursed,
into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat:
I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink.
I was a stranger, and you took me not in:
naked, and you covered me not:
sick and in prison, and you did not visit me.”
*

Ok I will say this referencing John 16:8-11. And when he comes he will convict the world in regard to sin, ant to righteousness ,and to condemnation .also John 3:17 "for God did not send his Son into the world to condemn it, but that the world " MIGHT"be saved through Him "we condemn ourselves by denying His existence and living in the world controlled by Satan. Not everyone though. Notice God said “MIGHT” be saved, indicating He sent Jesus to save the world of believers. You can believe in Jesus and even attend Services, but never really know the truth and live according to His Words .As for the parable not saying the man was a simmer, it didnt have to, as it is understood we are all sinners because we live in the flesh in a world whose ruler is Satan

 

[LordsPoint]

Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that “nothing unclean shall enter heaven.” From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul, even if “covered,” remains a dirty soul and isn’t fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or “purged” of its remaining imperfections. The cleansing occurs in purgatory.

Sanctification is not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive “for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.”

Unless an indulgance is obtained for the penitant sinner in purgatory. (As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs. --John Tetzel, Dominican indulgence vendor.) The purification process can be terminated by obtaining an indulgence while others remain in Purgatory until their sins are totally cleansed by fire.

One has to ask, if the purification process can be terminated by an indulgance why is Purgatory required at all? Some have to complete the full process because it is necessary to be cleansed while others can leave early. Why is that? If some can leave early perhaps the purification process, the sanctification process, is not as required as we are lead to believe?

 

[JonathonofOhio]

You are right. I guess I am just not into believing Doctrines that came from the minds of man. Sorry that I don’t believe in purgatory but only the Bible truths. And the Catholic Hierarchy over the years were just like the Jewish leaders of old and inserting their own laws to their own words just like now. So until someone can show me proof of a place or state of being after death for “purging ones sins” that Jesus or any of the Bible writers spoke of, then I will not believe someone’s interpretation of it. Thank you. It was a pleasure

Well, thanks for stopping by and trolling the Catholic Answers boards.

 

[BarryI]

Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that “nothing unclean shall enter heaven.” From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul, even if “covered,” remains a dirty soul and isn’t fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or “purged” of its remaining imperfections. The cleansing occurs in purgatory.

Sanctification is not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive “for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.”

Unless an indulgance is obtained for the penitant sinner in purgatory. (As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs. --John Tetzel, Dominican indulgence vendor.) The purification process can be terminated by obtaining an indulgence while others remain in Purgatory until their sins are totally cleansed by fire.

One has to ask, if the purification process can be terminated by an indulgance why is Purgatory required at all? Some have to complete the full process because it is necessary to be cleansed while others can leave early. Why is that? If some can leave early perhaps the purification process, the sanctification process, is not as required as we are lead to believe?

As to the Hebrews passage "striving for holiness , to which no one will see The Lord , this is talking about man on earth in his spiritual taking in of The Word, and living and practicing it daily. The ones who do will truly see The Lord. Just as Jesus told Phillip when he sain in John14. "Show us the Father and that will be enough for us , to which Jesus replied:Have I been with you so long and yet you still do not know me,Phillip. Whoever has seen mr has seen the Father.Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in me?The Father ,who dwells in me is doing his works . Now from this is what in Hebrewsthat is bring said. You have to strive everyday to be as much as you can to be like Jesus was. If you do, then you will see The Lord They were referring to seeing him in a spiritual sense, not a physical sense. That is the meaning here.

 

[steve_b]

My thoughts on this post are; Jesus as using a parable here to show that there is one who has gained eternal life and one who has condemned himself to eternal condemnation which is total seperation from God. Once again nowhere in this parable did Jesus ever mention a place called purgatory nor did he insinuate any such existence. He was using this parable as an example of humbleness and ignorance. Lazarus the humble beggar and Dives the wealthy ignorant man oblivious to everyone and every situation and who refuses to seek the truth which is his own condennation.Jesus didnt condemn him , he condemned himself by ignoring those in need, but no mention or insinuation here of a so called purgatory

My bad, I refered you to the wrong post.

I meant to refer you to my post that contained

1 Cor 3:12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13* each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15** If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.*

This isn’t hell because the person is saved after this process. Therefore It’s a temporary existence after death but before heaven. And it sure doesn’t look like fun.

Your thoughts?

 

[JonathonofOhio]

My bad, I refered you to the wrong post.

I meant to refer you to my post that contained

1 Cor 3:12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13* each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15** If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though* he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

This isn’t hell because the person is saved after this process. Therefore It’s a temporary existence after death but before heaven. And it sure doesn’t look like fun.

Your thoughts?

Hi, Steve, it looks he is just trolling as evident by his last response to me. I don’t believe he is here to learn anything, and the OP has had the question sufficiently answered (I hope). Just thought I’d let you know so you don’t waste time on this guy and he ends up keeping this thread alive.

 

[BarryI]

Hi, Steve, it looks he is just trolling as evident by his last response to me. I don’t believe he is here to learn anything, and the OP has had the question sufficiently answered (I hope). Just thought I’d let you know so you don’t waste time on this guy and he ends up keeping this thread alive.

Sorry but I’m not trolling or looking for any type of arguments. I initially responded for someone, anyone, to refer me to the passage in the Bible where either Jesus or any of the Bible mentions purgatory. That’s all. Nothing more. Didnt want to have any discussions about it, just where I need to go to actually read it that came from Jesus or one of the Bible writers . Sorry if anyone was offended. Now that bring said. No one still referred me to that

 

[mdiaz1328]

Somebody posted :

“The Martyrs, I understand, pass by Purgatory completely: they don’t experience it.”

That would be true for those martyrs who were not Baptized before their untimely deaths. If they were baptized first, then they would still have to visit purgatory.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

Somebody posted :

“The Martyrs, I understand, pass by Purgatory completely: they don’t experience it.”

That would be true for those martyrs who were not Baptized before their untimely deaths. If they were baptized first, then they would still have to visit purgatory.

Not true. Baptism by blood (martyrdom) is the purification process for them…that is their purgatory.

 

[Evan]

Not true. Baptism by blood (martyrdom) is the purification process for them…that is their purgatory.

There is only one baptism. It impart a permenant mark on the soul. If they were baptized into the faith prior to their martyrdom, they may need to suffer purgatory. If not, then their baptism (of blood) as with any baptism forgives their sins and all punishment due to sin.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

There is only one baptism. It impart a permenant mark on the soul. If they were baptized into the faith prior to their martyrdom, they may need to suffer purgatory. If not, then their baptism (of blood) as with any baptism forgives their sins and all punishment due to sin.

You are correct that there is one baptism, but you are incorrect that a martyr must undergo purgatory upon death. Here is what the Catholic Church has to say about it:

The baptism of blood is the obtaining of the grace of justification by suffering martyrdom for the faith of Christ. The term “washing of blood” is used by Tertullian to distinguish this species of regeneration from the “washing of water”. “We have a second washing”, he says “which is one and the same [with the first], namely the washing of blood.” St. Cyprian (Epistle 73) speaks of “the most glorious and greatest baptism of blood”. St. Augustine (City of God 13.7) says: “When any die for the confession of Christ without having received the washing of regeneration, it avails as much for the remission of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism.”

The Church grounds her belief in the efficacy of the baptism of blood on the fact that Christ makes a general statement of the saving power of martyrdom in the tenth chapter of St. Matthew: “Every one therefore that shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my Father who is in heaven” (verse 32); and: “He that shall lose his life for me shall find it” (verse 39). It is pointed out that these texts are so broadly worded as to include even infants, especially the latter text. That the former text also applies to them, has been constantly maintained by the Fathers, who declare that if infants can not confess Christ with the mouth, they can by act. Tertullian (Against the Valentinians 2) speaks of the infants slaughtered by Herod as martyrs, and this has been the constant teaching of the Church.

Another evidence of the mind of the Church as to the efficacy of the baptism of blood is found in the fact that she never prays for martyrs. Her opinion is well voiced by St. Augustine (Tractate 74 on the Gospel of John): “He does an injury to a martyr who prays for him.” This shows that martyrdom is believed to remit all sin and all punishment due to sin. Later theologians commonly maintain that the baptism of blood justifies adult martyrs independently of an act of charity or perfect contrition, and, as it were, ex opere operato, though, of course, they must have attrition for past sins. The reason is that if perfect charity, or contrition, were required in martyrdom, the distinction between the baptism of blood and the baptism of desire would be a useless one. Moreover, as it must be conceded that infant martyrs are justified without an act of charity, of which they are incapable, there is no solid reason for denying the same privilege to adults.

(From the Catholic Encyclopedia.)

 

[snarflemike]

I initially responded for someone, anyone, to refer me to the passage in the Bible where either Jesus or any of the Bible mentions purgatory.

Why do you choose that standard of evidence?

BTW, does the bible say that those in heaven will be perfect and without sin?

Does the bible say that we on earth are imperfect sinners?

How does an imperfect sinner become perfect and without sin?