Purgatory: a place of torment or not?

[Evan]

You are correct that there is one baptism, but you are incorrect that a martyr must undergo purgatory upon death. Here is what the Catholic Church has to say about it:

The baptism of blood is the obtaining of the grace of justification by suffering martyrdom for the faith of Christ. The term “washing of blood” is used by Tertullian to distinguish this species of regeneration from the “washing of water”. “We have a second washing”, he says “which is one and the same [with the first], namely the washing of blood.” St. Cyprian (Epistle 73) speaks of “the most glorious and greatest baptism of blood”. St. Augustine (City of God 13.7) says: “When any die for the confession of Christ without having received the washing of regeneration, it avails as much for the remission of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism.”

The Church grounds her belief in the efficacy of the baptism of blood on the fact that Christ makes a general statement of the saving power of martyrdom in the tenth chapter of St. Matthew: “Every one therefore that shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my Father who is in heaven” (verse 32); and: “He that shall lose his life for me shall find it” (verse 39). It is pointed out that these texts are so broadly worded as to include even infants, especially the latter text. That the former text also applies to them, has been constantly maintained by the Fathers, who declare that if infants can not confess Christ with the mouth, they can by act. Tertullian (Against the Valentinians 2) speaks of the infants slaughtered by Herod as martyrs, and this has been the constant teaching of the Church.

Another evidence of the mind of the Church as to the efficacy of the baptism of blood is found in the fact that she never prays for martyrs. Her opinion is well voiced by St. Augustine (Tractate 74 on the Gospel of John): “He does an injury to a martyr who prays for him.” This shows that martyrdom is believed to remit all sin and all punishment due to sin. Later theologians commonly maintain that the baptism of blood justifies adult martyrs independently of an act of charity or perfect contrition, and, as it were, ex opere operato, though, of course, they must have attrition for past sins. The reason is that if perfect charity, or contrition, were required in martyrdom, the distinction between the baptism of blood and the baptism of desire would be a useless one. Moreover, as it must be conceded that infant martyrs are justified without an act of charity, of which they are incapable, there is no solid reason for denying the same privilege to adults.

(From the Catholic Encyclopedia.)

I see that you argue Justification is found through martyrdom. So forgiveness is there. But this does not imply elimination of the temporal effects of sin. Justification is also found in Reconciliation. What’s more the Catechism states

VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that **those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism **are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

I see that you argue Justification is found through martyrdom. So forgiveness is there. But this does not imply elimination of the temporal effects of sin. Justification is also found in Reconciliation. What’s more the Catechism states

VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM

I’ll repeat the part of my quote that applies:

Another evidence of the mind of the Church as to the efficacy of the baptism of blood is found in the fact that she never prays for martyrs. Her opinion is well voiced by St. Augustine (Tractate 74 on the Gospel of John): “He does an injury to a martyr who prays for him.” This shows that martyrdom is believed to remit all sin and all punishment due to sin.

What is contained in the catechism that you quoted is not at odds with this. You quoted:

This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, *brings about the fruits of Baptism *without being a sacrament."

What are the fruits (effects) of Baptism?

1. The remission of all sin, original and actual
2. Remission of temporal punishment
3. Infusion of supernatural grace, gifts, and virtues
4. Conferral of the right to special graces
5. Impression of a character on the soul

For a full explanation: newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#XII (Effect of Baptism)

Therefore, the Baptism of blood removes the need for temporal punishment, and the person does not need to be purified as they are already purified through it.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

Just one more thing:

Besides what you quoted, the CCC also says this:

1434 The interior penance of the Christian can be expressed in many and various ways. Scripture and the Fathers insist above all on three forms, fasting, prayer, and almsgiving,(Cf. ⇒ Tob 12:8; ⇒ Mt 6:1-18.) which express conversion in relation to oneself, to God, and to others. **Alongside the radical purification brought about by Baptism or martyrdom ** they cite as means of obtaining forgiveness of sins: effort at reconciliation with one’s neighbor, tears of repentance, concern for the salvation of one’s neighbor, the intercession of the saints, and the practice of charity “which covers a multitude of sins.”(⇒ 1 Pet 4:8; Cf. ⇒ Jas 5:20.)

 

[Emerite]

Ok can anyone who responded to this thread please tell me where in the BIBLE that either God or Jesus mentions purgatory. Isn’t it true that this was made up from the minds of man?ALL sins are forgiven when you die. You do not go to another place to have your sins purged. That is ridiculous. That is what the Catholic Church teaches. Not the Bible. Once again,I ask for ANYONE to please show me a passage in the Bible that mentions the word purgatory, and then I may believe.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory (even if it is not named “purgatory” in the Bible) have been a part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Even Orthodox Jews today recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one can be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that “nothing unclean shall enter heaven.” The necessity of purging is taught in Scripture, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, which declares that God chose us to “be saved through sanctification of the spirit.” Sanctification is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive “for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.” Graffiti in the catacombs shows that Christians in the first three centuries recorded prayers for the dead. Writings from the Second Century, outside of the New Testament, like Acts of Paul and Thecla and the Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity, refer to the Christian practice of praying for the dead. Such prayers would have been offered only if Christians believed in purgatory, even if they did not use that name for it. Even St. Monica, the mother of St. Augustine, asked her son in the Fourth Century to remember her soul in his Masses. If she were already “saved” and there was no purgatory, why would she feel the need for prayers after her death? And there are multiple references to purgatory in the New Testament, including Matthew 12:32, works and its role in salvation at Matthew 25:31, and Revelation 21:27.

 

[LaneMEL]

Thanks to your apostolate, I do have a better understanding of the doctrine of purgatory I did not clearly receive years ago (very poor catechesis back in the '70’s and 80’s). However, I am, as a Lutheran, troubled by this doctrine, because it implies that Christ’s atonement on the cross was NOT complete for our salvation, which can easily can rob a believer of the comfort that our Lord PAID FOR ALL sins.

 

[Emerite]

Thanks to your apostolate, I do have a better understanding of the doctrine of purgatory I did not clearly receive years ago (very poor catechesis back in the '70’s and 80’s). However, I am, as a Lutheran, troubled by this doctrine, because it implies that Christ’s atonement on the cross was NOT complete for our salvation, which can easily can rob a believer of the comfort that our Lord PAID FOR ALL sins.

It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom 5:3-5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying Redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross. It would be great to have a preacher declare that I am “saved” regardless of my sins/weaknesses, but I’d find this preacher difficult to believe after reading Scripture, through intelligent reason, and by my Catholic upbringing.

 

[mdiaz1328]

Ok can anyone who responded to this thread please tell me where in the BIBLE that either God or Jesus mentions purgatory. Isn’t it true that this was made up from the minds of man?ALL sins are forgiven when you die. You do not go to another place to have your sins purged. That is ridiculous. That is what the Catholic Church teaches. Not the Bible. Once again,I ask for ANYONE to please show me a passage in the Bible that mentions the word purgatory, and then I may believe.

Although your question is a good question, it presupposes that all truth must be written in the Holy Scriptures and that simply is not true. Look at the last chapter and verse of John.

Secondly, your statement that the sins of ALL who die are forgiven is not supported by Holy scripture, There are a number of examples of this in the Holy scriptures:

Let’s take a peek at : Matthew 12:32

And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

It cannot be any clearer. NOT ALL SIN IS FORGIVEN.

Secondly, your question is so timely being that Pentecost is upon us.

Let’s consider the words that came from Jesus’s lips in John 20:21-23

Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

So here we see that some sins are retained (NOT FORGIVEN).

Now on to purgatory:

As you have requested, there are numerous examples: I will only share two of them…

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven because the saved are in a perfect place and unnecessary in hell because nothing can help those souls. These dead are in purgatory.

I hope this answers your question.

 

[Evan]

I’ll repeat the part of my quote that applies:

What is contained in the catechism that you quoted is not at odds with this. You quoted:

What are the fruits (effects) of Baptism?

1. The remission of all sin, original and actual
2. Remission of temporal punishment
3. Infusion of supernatural grace, gifts, and virtues
4. Conferral of the right to special graces
5. Impression of a character on the soul

For a full explanation: newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#XII (Effect of Baptism)

Therefore, the Baptism of blood removes the need for temporal punishment, and the person does not need to be purified as they are already purified through it.

And I repeat. Once you have received baptism, you cannot receive it a 2nd time. There is One Baptism and the effects you list above are at a person’s baptism. My quote identified the baptism of blood is a baptism for those who had not been sacramentally baptized.

 

[BarryI]

Thanks to your apostolate, I do have a better understanding of the doctrine of purgatory I did not clearly receive years ago (very poor catechesis back in the '70’s and 80’s). However, I am, as a Lutheran, troubled by this doctrine, because it implies that Christ’s atonement on the cross was NOT complete for our salvation, which can easily can rob a believer of the comfort that our Lord PAID FOR ALL sins.

You are right. Jesus never mentioned ANYTHING about a"Place" where your soul goes to be purged.Think of this : If you are given a soul at birth as many believe, and it is seperate from your physical,earthly,fleshly body,then that also means your mind is of physical nature also. That being said, the physical body and its thoughts and actions are what sins. Once you die, ALL sins are forgiven as “The wages of sin is death”.That says it plain and simple .Death of the body is the wages paid for ALL of your sins.The problem is that no one has clearly explained how they came up to believe there is aplace called purgatory since it is NEVER,EVER , mentioned anywhere in the Bible. I keep asking for someone,anyone to please refer me to a passage in the Bible that mentions this, but to no avail,no one can.If there was such a place, do you not think Jesus would have said so?He mentions Heaven and hell, but no purgatory.And you are right, this is a Doctrine,albeit, from the minds of man,not God. Just as Jesus quoted Isaiah in Mark 7:6 “This people honors me with their lips,but their hearts are far from me.In vain do they worship me,teaching as Doctrines,human precepts”.

 

[Emerite]

You are right. Jesus never mentioned ANYTHING about a"Place" where your soul goes to be purged.Think of this : If you are given a soul at birth as many believe, and it is seperate from your physical,earthly,fleshly body,then that also means your mind is of physical nature also. That being said, the physical body and its thoughts and actions are what sins. Once you die, ALL sins are forgiven as “The wages of sin is death”.That says it plain and simple .Death of the body is the wages paid for ALL of your sins.The problem is that no one has clearly explained how they came up to believe there is aplace called purgatory since it is NEVER,EVER , mentioned anywhere in the Bible. I keep asking for someone,anyone to please refer me to a passage in the Bible that mentions this, but to no avail,no one can.If there was such a place, do you not think Jesus would have said so?He mentions Heaven and hell, but no purgatory.And you are right, this is a Doctrine,albeit, from the minds of man,not God. Just as Jesus quoted Isaiah in Mark 7:6 “This people honors me with their lips,but their hearts are far from me.In vain do they worship me,teaching as Doctrines,human precepts”.

Why would we need the Ten Commandments, handed down by Moses, if we who believe in Jesus Christ are all saved and going to heaven? Or are the Ten Commandments, i.e.: Thou shall not kill. Thou shall not steal., etc., reserved only for non-believers of Jesus Christ?

 

[LordsPoint]

As to the Hebrews passage "striving for holiness , to which no one will see The Lord , this is talking about man on earth in his spiritual taking in of The Word, and living and practicing it daily. … They were referring to seeing him in a spiritual sense, not a physical sense. That is the meaning here.

Thank you for explaining in detail Heb 12:14. My main concern is this:

The fiery purification process can be terminated by obtaining an indulgence while others remain in the fires of Purgatory until their sins are totally cleansed (by fire). One has to ask, if the purification process can be terminated by an indulgence why is Purgatory required at all?

Some have to complete the full process “because it is necessary to be cleansed” while others can leave early. Why is that? If some can leave early perhaps the purification process is not as required as we are lead to believe?

 

[thenobes]

Thank you for explaining in detail Heb 12:14. My main concern is this:

The fiery purification process can be terminated by obtaining an indulgence while others remain in the fires of Purgatory until their sins are totally cleansed (by fire). One has to ask, if the purification process can be terminated by an indulgence why is Purgatory required at all?

Some have to complete the full process “because it is necessary to be cleansed” while others can leave early. Why is that? If some can leave early perhaps the purification process is not as required as we are lead to believe?

Or rather, perhaps it is that each one can only experience the suffering at his own speed; but through indulgences and our suffering our own hardships patiently, we are helping them to bear their sufferings.

peace
steve

 

[steve_b]

You are right. Jesus never mentioned ANYTHING about a"Place" where your soul goes to be purged.Think of this : If you are given a soul at birth as many believe, and it is seperate from your physical,earthly,fleshly body,then that also means your mind is of physical nature also.

When the body dies, the soul which is pure spirit is judged immediately. Memory intellect and will are fully functional in the soul. And those 3 properties of the soul are that way for all eternity.

Therefore at death, the soul immediately goes to heaven, (possibly to purgatory first) or hell. At the end of the world, and the resurrection of all who have died from Adam, the resurrected body and soul are reunited. If the soul was in heaven,. that soul is now body and soul in heaven. Same with hell. Purgatory ceases to exist because there are no more births or deaths. If souls were in purgatory at the end of the world, they are now in heaven body and soul.
B:

That being said, the physical body and its thoughts and actions are what sins. Once you die, ALL sins are forgiven as “The wages of sin is death”.

Nope! If you don’t unload those sins before you die your soul will carry them as baggage into eternity. If you die in mortal sin you will go immediately to hell.
B:

That says it plain and simple .Death of the body is the wages paid for ALL of your sins.The problem is that no one has clearly explained how they came up to believe there is aplace called purgatory since it is NEVER,EVER , mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

You can call it whatever you want, the reality of purification after death is clearly taught in scripture forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10726718&postcount=33 As an aside that’s only for the soul who dies in friendship with God. Those without mortal sin on their soul.
B:

I keep asking for someone,anyone to please refer me to a passage in the Bible that mentions this, but to no avail,no one can.If there was such a place, do you not think Jesus would have said so?He mentions Heaven and hell, but no purgatory.

You just don’t want to see it.
B:

And you are right, this is a Doctrine,albeit, from the minds of man,not God. Just as Jesus quoted Isaiah in Mark 7:6 “This people honors me with their lips,but their hearts are far from me.In vain do they worship me,teaching as Doctrines,human precepts”.

Take that one to heart

 

[BarryI]

When the body dies, the soul which is pure spirit is judged immediately. Memory intellect and will are fully functional in the soul. And those 3 properties of the soul are that way for all eternity.

Therefore at death, the soul immediately goes to heaven, (possibly to purgatory first) or hell. At the end of the world, and the resurrection of all who have died from Adam, the resurrected body and soul are reunited. If the soul was in heaven,. that soul is now body and soul in heaven. Same with hell. Purgatory ceases to exist because there are no more births or deaths. If souls were in purgatory at the end of the world, they are now in heaven body and soul.

Nope! If you don’t unload those sins before you die your soul will carry them as baggage into eternity. If you die in mortal sin you will go immediately to hell.

You can call it whatever you want, the reality of purification after death is clearly taught in scripture forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10726718&postcount=33 As an aside that’s only for the soul who dies in friendship with God. Those without mortal sin on their soul.

You just don’t want to see it.

Take that one to heart

Well then can you explain then why, if one is already in Heaven, he is still going to be resurrected and judged on the last day. Judgment Day. For even in the Nicene Creed, all Catholics profess"We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.We Look for the Resurrection of the DEAD and the life of the world to come Amen

 

[mdiaz1328]

And I repeat. Once you have received baptism, you cannot receive it a 2nd time. There is One Baptism and the effects you list above are at a person’s baptism. My quote identified the baptism of blood is a baptism for those who had not been sacramentally baptized.

I think you got only part of the story.

Let’s use a good sinner as an example… ME !

I was Baptised as a baby and like you mentioned, any temporal punishment was taken care of. But, because of original sin and our inclination to sin, I accumulate temporal punishment AFTER my Baptism because I am a sinner. Now when I go to confession, my sins are forgiven BY GOD. The priest is the secondary cause of the forgiveness of sin; or better stated, he is God’s instrument. But, confession only takes care of the sin, not temporal punishment. Thank God for Purgatory, otherwise I would never make it to God’s heavenly kingdom.

Yours in Christ Jesus

 

[BarryI]

I think you got only part of the story.

Let’s use a good sinner as an example… ME !

I was Baptised as a baby and like you mentioned, any temporal punishment was taken care of. But, because of original sin and our inclination to sin, I accumulate temporal punishment AFTER my Baptism because I am a sinner. Now when I go to confession, my sins are forgiven BY GOD. The priest is the secondary cause of the forgiveness of sin; or better stated, he is God’s instrument. But, confession only takes care of the sin, not temporal punishment. Thank God for Purgatory, otherwise I would never make it to God’s heavenly kingdom.

Yours in Christ Jesus

Hello ,you are thanking God for purgatory. Can you please refer me to the passage in the Bible that says purgatory so I too can read it and believe. Thank you very much

 

[sparkfrompoland]

St Theresa of Lisieux had some great insights into purgatory:
While still only a novice, the saint commented about this with one of the sisters, Sr. Maria Philomena, who believed in the near impossibility of going to heaven without passing through purgatory:

“You do not have enough trust. You have too much fear before the good God. I can assure you that He is grieved over this. You should not fear Purgatory because of the suffering there, but should instead ask that you not deserve to go there in order to please God, Who so reluctantly imposes this punishment. As soon as you try to please Him in everything and have an unshakable trust He purifies you every moment in His love and He lets no sin remain. And then you can be sure that you will not have to go to Purgatory.” (Annales de Sainte Therese, Lisieux. Nr. 610, Febr. 1982. Translated from the German.)
www.divinemerycpopes.com

 

[joecap]

This sums it up pretty well for me. My biggest sins of my life have always been with lust. And I repent of these sins, but sexual sin continues to hold attraction for me. I don’t do them because I know it is wrong, but I still WANT to.

I feel I need Purgatory to cleanse me from the ATTACHMENT to sin.

 

[BarryI]

St Theresa of Lisieux had some great insights into purgatory:
While still only a novice, the saint commented about this with one of the sisters, Sr. Maria Philomena, who believed in the near impossibility of going to heaven without passing through purgatory:

“You do not have enough trust. You have too much fear before the good God. I can assure you that He is grieved over this. You should not fear Purgatory because of the suffering there, but should instead ask that you not deserve to go there in order to please God, Who so reluctantly imposes this punishment. As soon as you try to please Him in everything and have an unshakable trust He purifies you every moment in His love and He lets no sin remain. And then you can be sure that you will not have to go to Purgatory.” (Annales de Sainte Therese, Lisieux. Nr. 610, Febr. 1982. Translated from the German.)
www.divinemerycpopes.com

Once again, I am not asking for what anyone believes,but only the written Word of God, either written in the Bible by on of the OT or NT Bible writers. Do you have a scriptural passage for me that I can go to to see the name" purgatory" and its meaning as coming from Jesus or God. Thank You very much.

 

[snarflemike]

Once again, I am not asking for what anyone believes,but only the written Word of God, either written in the Bible by on of the OT or NT Bible writers. Do you have a scriptural passage for me that I can go to to see the name" purgatory" and its meaning as coming from Jesus or God. Thank You very much.

I have a question for you. Can you show me in the bible where it says you are now, on this earth, free from all sin and from all inclination to sin? Because that is what you are claiming.