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Nita
Guest
I responded to your above post in my Post #99 - but was too late to add the following: .
Catholics also believe our physical bodies will remain in the earth till the final resurrection.
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Catholics also believe our physical bodies will remain in the earth till the final resurrection.
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BarryI
Guest
Yes but the breath was only given to Adam. After he sinned eternal life was taken from him and all mankind. Which is why we die. I will state my case again. Heaven is for heavenly creatures and earth is for and was made for a reason. For man to inhabit it and live forever on it until Adam and Eve sinned. God din not create it as a proving ground to see who can make it to heaven. That was not his plan . Which I’d why he sent the Messiah to show mankind what Godis like and how to live in harmony with .His commandments.Genesis also says - "then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."
The “breath” that came from God is something different from the material earth from which He formed Adam’s physical body. This breath that came from Him and entered us did not come from the earth; it came directly from God. And it is what gives life to the material “stuff” of which our physical bodies are made. When our body is no longer a “living” thing, it is because that immaterial “breath” is no longer present in it. When it (our human, created spirit/soul) departs, our material created body dies - and returns to the dust from which it was created.
I think it is this difference in our understanding of what constitutes human nature that is keeping you from understanding much of what we are trying to communicate to you.
(BTW, the words in Genesis 3:19 were spoken after Adam sinned. They were part of the punishment for his sin. Which implies that would not have been part of the human condition had he chosen not to sin.)
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Nita
Guest
Scripture doesn’t say only Adam was given a breath/spirit/soul of life. It says just the opposite:Yes but the breath was only given to Adam. After he sinned eternal life was taken from him and all mankind. Which is why we die. I will state my case again. Heaven is for heavenly creatures and earth is for and was made for a reason. For man to inhabit it and live forever on it until Adam and Eve sinned. God din not create it as a proving ground to see who can make it to heaven. That was not his plan . Which I’d why he sent the Messiah to show mankind what Godis like and how to live in harmony with .His commandments.
*Genesis 6:3 Then the LORD said, “My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for he is flesh, but his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.”
Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
**Wisdom 15:11 **Forasmuch as he knew not his maker, and him that inspired into him the soul that worketh, and that breathed into him a living spirit.
*
These are only a few verses. I suggest you do a Biblical word search on “spirit” and “soul”. Here’s a link to one if you don’t have one handy.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_FAK.HTM
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Nita
Guest
And, in case no one has mentioned this NT passage before, here are words spoken by Jesus:
Mt. 10:28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.
Mt. 10:28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.
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BarryI
Guest
OK, so in Genesis 6:3, God is talking about “His Spirit”, not you being a spirit. The “Spirit” of God is in each and everyone of us when we are born. That is how we long to live forever and have a common sense of what is right and wrong. It is instillled in everyone .Man chooses to do wrong and disobey/and/or not take in the knowledge of God. That is why at death it is the "Spirit of God " that returns to Him. We don’t return as a spirit, we return to the earth. We were created as humans, live as humans, and die as humans, and those who believe and made a conscious daily effort to reflect on, and live according to God’s ways through His Son Jesus,are granted eternal life at the resurrection and judgement day to eternal life on a “NEW” earth. Those who rebel and live an evil life worshipping Satan and his ways and never taking in knowledge of God’s Word through Jesus will be condemned to everlasting condemnation.And, in case no one has mentioned this NT passage before, here are words spoken by Jesus:
Mt. 10:28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.
As for Wisdom, it was written by an unknown writer to the Jewish people before Christ came,and he was only writing with what he knew from his knowledge. It wasn’t until Jesus came and brought the truth with Him that he told the disciples about to keep asking,searching, and knocking.And like I stated earlier, He Himself said"NO ONE, has ascended to Heaven,except THE ONE, who came down from heaven, the SON OF MAN".
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Nita
Guest
He is talking about something that comes from Him which makes inanimate matter (our material bodies) be a living being. When God chooses to end a person’s life, He calls the soul/spirit, which He put into us, back out of our physical body, back to be in His presence. And that’s when our body dies and our soul goes back to God for judgement.OK, so in Genesis 6:3, God is talking about “His Spirit”, not you being a spirit. The “Spirit” of God is in each and everyone of us when we are born.
I presume you know we consider the Holy Spirit to be a Divine Person – one of the 3 Divine Persons in the One God.
When you say “we long”, (we) “have a common sense”, we “choose”, then you obviously recognize it is “we” and not “God’s Spirit” doing the longing, reasoning, and choosing. What part of your human nature longs/reasons/chooses. Do you really think that somewhere there is physical matter in our body that can be identified as “longing”, or “choosing”. And if it isn’t physical matter, what is it.That is how we long to live forever and have a common sense of what is right and wrong. It is instillled in everyone .Man chooses to do wrong and disobey/and/or not take in the knowledge of God.
So are the Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes. The Wisdom of Solomon, like those books, is part of canonized Sacred Scripture. And like those books it was written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.As for Wisdom, it was written by an unknown writer to the Jewish people before Christ came,and he was only writing with what he knew from his knowledge
And no one had ascended at that time. But note carefully, Jesus did not say “And no one, except the Son of Man, ever will ascend to heaven.” That is something you are reading into Jesus’ words; it is not something He said.It wasn’t until Jesus came and brought the truth with Him that he told the disciples about to keep asking,searching, and knocking.And like I stated earlier, He Himself said"NO ONE, has ascended to Heaven,except THE ONE, who came down from heaven, the SON OF MAN".
Also, Jesus is talking about His ascension with His physical body. We do not believe that takes place at the time of death. That will happen at the time of the resurrection. So we have not yet ascended as the Son of Man has - body and soul.
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Nita
Guest
You didn’t explain how you interpret the above passage from Matthew. Jesus is obviously talking about us having both a body and a soul – and something can happen to one that does not happen to the other, so they are not one and the same thing. The soul is something other than the body. What do you think “soul” means?Originally Posted by** Nita **
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BarryI
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You said when God chooses to end our lives. I’m sorry but do you think God is up there controlling our lives and decides who dies and when and how?He is talking about something that comes from Him which makes inanimate matter (our material bodies) be a living being. When God chooses to end a person’s life, He calls the soul/spirit, which He put into us, back out of our physical body, back to be in His presence. And that’s when our body dies and our soul goes back to God for judgement.
I presume you know we consider the Holy Spirit to be a Divine Person – one of the 3 Divine Persons in the One God.
When you say “we long”, (we) “have a common sense”, we “choose”, then you obviously recognize it is “we” and not “God’s Spirit” doing the longing, reasoning, and choosing. What part of your human nature longs/reasons/chooses. Do you really think that somewhere there is physical matter in our body that can be identified as “longing”, or “choosing”. And if it isn’t physical matter, what is it.
So are the Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes. The Wisdom of Solomon, like those books, is part of canonized Sacred Scripture. And like those books it was written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
And no one had ascended at that time. But note carefully, Jesus did not say “And no one, except the Son of Man, ever will ascend to heaven.” That is something you are reading into Jesus’ words; it is not something He said.
Also, Jesus is talking about His ascension with His physical body. We do not believe that takes place at the time of death. That will happen at the time of the resurrection. So we chave not yet ascended as the Son of Man has - body and soul.
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Nita
Guest
Yes.You said when God chooses to end our lives. I’m sorry but do you think God is up there controlling our lives and decides who dies and when and how?
God is all powerful. I believe that God has “control” over everything. That is, something COULD NOT happen if He were to decide that it WILL NOT happen. I do not mean that “God is up there controlling our lives” in the sense that He is making everything happen. He chose to create us with free-will.
**There is a difference between God’s ordaining will and God’s permissive will . But nothing can happen that is outside His will - outside what He chooses to do, or chooses to permit/allow to happen. **
It is God who chooses when we will come into existence as a human being (chooses whether or not to create a spiritual human soul to enliven the physical matter). And it is God who chooses when He will allow a person to experience death. He does not actively kill everyone. Generally He allows human nature (eg. disease, old age,) and/or human events (eg. murder, accident) to take their normal course AS LONG AS it is acceptible to His permissive will that the person should die at that point in time. He is perfectly capable of intervening if He does not will that person to die at that time.
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BarryI
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Ok. Say what you will about God willing someone to die at a certain time. I guess if you believe that then that is your belief. I for one do not believe it but suppose if it is His will as people have been saying throughout the ages. I believe His Will is for the Good News to be preached as a witness to all nations so everyone is aware of His plan for salvation and choose life. Only if you hear His voice and answer and continue to ask,search, and knock and find the truth, then you will find the answers about life and death. Which is why He gave us fee will so we can choose life or death. God is not willing that anyone should dieYes.
God is all powerful. I believe that God has “control” over everything. That is, something COULD NOT happen if He were to decide that it WILL NOT happen. I do not mean that “God is up there controlling our lives” in the sense that He is making everything happen. He chose to create us with free-will.
**There is a difference between God’s ordaining will **and God’s permissive will . But nothing can happen that is outside His will - outside what He chooses to do, or chooses to permit/allow to happen.
It is God who chooses when we will come into existence as a human being (chooses whether or not to create a spiritual human soul to enliven the physical matter). And it is God who chooses when He will allow a person to experience death. He does not actively kill everyone. Generally He allows human nature (eg. disease, old age,) and/or human events (eg. murder, accident) to take their normal course AS LONG AS it is acceptible to His permissive will that the person should die at that point in time. He is perfectly capable of intervening if He does not will that person to die at that time.
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Nita
Guest
When we speak about what God “wills”, we mean what He actively does or permits. It is different from what He “desires”. He desires that the Good News be preached to all nations - and entrusts that mission to us. He desires that all men choose life.Ok. Say what you will about God willing someone to die at a certain time. I guess if you believe that then that is your belief. I for one do not believe it but suppose if it is His will as people have been saying throughout the ages. I believe His Will is for the Good News to be preached as a witness to all nations so everyone is aware of His plan for salvation and choose life. Only if you hear His voice and answer and continue to ask,search, and knock and find the truth, then you will find the answers about life and death. Which is why He gave us fee will so we can choose life or death. God is not willing that anyone should die
God is spirit. When He “wills” something to happen, it happens. (Eg. from Genesis: “Let there be light.”) That is how God “does” something — He “wills” it.
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BarryI
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Then why would He will someone to die?When we speak about what God “wills”, we mean what He actively does or permits. It is different from what He “desires”. He desires that the Good News be preached to all nations - and entrusts that mission to us. He desires that all men choose life.
God is spirit. When He “wills” something to happen, it happens. (Eg. from Genesis: “Let there be light.”) That is how God “does” something — He “wills” it.
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Nita
Guest
Because after Adam’s fall, that is how we get from this life on earth into eternal existence in either heaven or hell. It is something we all must go through.Then why would He will someone to die?
As to times why God might will (ordaining will) the death of someone - I can think of a couple of reasons.
If a situation arose where a person was determined to do something that God had absolutely willed not to happen, then God could decide to call that person’s spirit back (have him die) so that event could not take place.
If it is to the eternal benefit of someone to die now rather than later.
Here is an intersting passage from Wisdom:
Wisdom 4:10-15 There was one who pleased God and was loved by him, and while living among sinners he was taken up. ** He was caught up lest evil change his understanding or guile deceive his soul**. For the fascination of wickedness obscures what is good, and roving desire perverts the innocent mind. Being perfected in a short time, he fulfilled long years; for his soul was pleasing to the Lord, therefore he took him quickly from the midst of wickedness. Yet the peoples saw and did not understand, nor take such a thing to heart, that God’s grace and mercy are with his elect, and he watches over his holy ones.
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Emerite
Guest
True, Jesus Christ (with the exception of his mother Mary-a topic for another thread) is the only one who ascended into heaven, body and soul. Catholics believe that their bodies are interred after death, and their soul goes on to Judgment: heaven, hell or purgatory. At the end of the world, our souls will be reunited with our bodies, to “live” forever happily in Heaven, or regrettably in Hell.I will answer based on my belief and scriptural knowledge. Sinners are not allowed in heaven. In fact, Jesus said in John 3. No one has ascended to heaven, except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of man.tjis indicates clearly that no one goes to heaven. Sorry we remain in the ground until the last day when he calls everyone out of the graves. This is what Jesus spoke about. He never gave anybody any indication they were going to heaven.
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BarryI
Guest
Just one more comment on this. I do not believe God is doing any controlling of any kind. He sent His Son to preach the Good News and to spread it to the entire populated world as to whaat God’s Salvation plan is. He gave us valuable insight as to what God is like and how to conduct ourselves in this world and to keep asking, seeking and knocking.As for control of the world, that belongs to Satan.He is the driving force in this world. God wants us to choose life, but sadly, Satan knows humankind too well and makes it way,way too difficult for people to understand this and choose to serve God. That is why He gave us free will,so we actively make the choice to serve Him,or Satan.Which is why Jesus said “Many are invited, but only few are chosen”,and “I never knew you,depart from Me ,you evildoers”. It is too difficult for most people to keep God alive in their thoughts on a daily basis.It is all part of Satan’s plan.Ok. Say what you will about God willing someone to die at a certain time. I guess if you believe that then that is your belief. I for one do not believe it but suppose if it is His will as people have been saying throughout the ages. I believe His Will is for the Good News to be preached as a witness to all nations so everyone is aware of His plan for salvation and choose life. Only if you hear His voice and answer and continue to ask,search, and knock and find the truth, then you will find the answers about life and death. Which is why He gave us fee will so we can choose life or death. God is not willing that anyone should die
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Nita
Guest
And you are free to choose what you will believe.Just one more comment on this. I do not believe God is doing any controlling of any kind. He sent His Son to preach the Good News and to spread it to the entire populated world as to whaat God’s Salvation plan is. He gave us valuable insight as to what God is like and how to conduct ourselves in this world and to keep asking, seeking and knocking.As for control of the world, that belongs to Satan.He is the driving force in this world. God wants us to choose life, but sadly, Satan knows humankind too well and makes it way,way too difficult for people to understand this and choose to serve God. That is why He gave us free will,so we actively make the choice to serve Him,or Satan.Which is why Jesus said “Many are invited, but only few are chosen”,and “I never knew you,depart from Me ,you evildoers”. It is too difficult for most people to keep God alive in their thoughts on a daily basis.It is all part of Satan’s plan.
If I understand you correctly, you believe that after dying for us on the cross, God no longer involves Himself in our lives while we’re here on earth. That was the end of His involvement. Now it’s just us alone against Satan? ** Is that correct – is that what you’re saying? Or have I misinterpreted your words. If I have, would you explain how you believe God still involves Himself in our lives?**
BTW, I also believe Satan exists and has been allowed to exercise power in this world. We just disagree on the extent of power granted to him; its absoluteness. He can only do what God permissively allows. Thus Satan is allowed to exercise his power, but it is God who has control. The book of Job contains a good example.Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 1:7 The LORD said to Satan, “Whence have you come?” Satan answered the LORD, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” 1:8 And the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, “Does Job fear God for nought? 1:10 Hast thou not put a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? Thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 1:11 But put forth thy hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will curse thee to thy face.” 1:12 And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only upon himself do not put forth your hand." Satan was allowed to act only within the parameters God set for him in that episode with Job.
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BarryI
Guest
If that were the case then you will have to explain to me all of the terrorist acts against humanity,sexual abuse by priests, murders,corruption,violence, greed, etc,. Yes Jesus is and was God’s last messenger as he bought the good news with Him to share with everyone and Jesus told the apostles there would be wars and insurrections but to be on guard and not get caught like a trap. After Jesus I it is up to us to do good and seek His forgiveness and acceptance. That is why Je sent Jesus, because Je knows mans hearts are evil and He will not control them. So yes God is not in control of the world. He created it and Satan rules it until the last day. ArmageddonAnd you are free to choose what you will believe.
If I understand you correctly, you believe that after dying for us on the cross, God no longer involves Himself in our lives while we’re here on earth. That was the end of His involvement. Now it’s just us alone against Satan? ** Is that correct – is that what you’re saying? Or have I misinterpreted your words. If I have, would you explain how you believe God still involves Himself in our lives?**
BTW, I also believe Satan exists and has been allowed to exercise power in this world. We just disagree on the extent of power granted to him and its absoluteness. He can only do what God permissively allows. Thus Satan is allowed to exercise his power, biut it is God who has control. The book of Job contains a good example.Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 1:7 The LORD said to Satan, “Whence have you come?” Satan answered the LORD, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” 1:8 And the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servat Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, “Does Job fear God for nought? 1:10 Hast thou not put a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? Thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 1:11 But put forth thy hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will curse thee to thy face.” 1:12 And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only upon himself do not put forth your hand."
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minion
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This makes sense to me.The Martyrs, I understand, pass by Purgatory completely: they don’t experience it.
So, Justice seems to be the rule in Purgatory.
Someone like Hitler can’t simply say “I’m sorry for my sins! I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour!” the moment before he dies, and go straight to heaven. That would make God incredibly unjust to others who led saintly lives and suffered torturous martyrdom for their faith. Even if truly repentant, a kind of purification must occur.
And for those of non-Christian religions who’ve done evil things but never heard of Christ through no fault of their own, a “trip” through Purgatory makes sense in terms of justice.
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BarryI
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I agree with your Hitler quote. You can’t just accept Jesus at your death. If you know of Him throughout life and fail to live for Him and through Him then you condemn yourself. As for purging ? I don’t see purgatory in Bible not did Jesus talk of such a placeThis makes sense to me.
Someone like Hitler can’t simply say “I’m sorry for my sins! I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour!” the moment before he dies, and go straight to heaven. That would make God incredibly unjust to others who led saintly lives and suffered torturous martyrdom for their faith. Even if truly repentant, a kind of purification must occur.
And for those of non-Christian religions who’ve done evil things but never heard of Christ through no fault of their own, a “trip” through Purgatory makes sense in terms of justice.
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minion
Guest
You can’t just accept Jesus at the moment of your death? I disagree…I think you can…I’m sure many soldiers in war sensing their incoming death looks back on their errors in the past with regret, and repent. That’s where I see the mercy of God in Purgatory…being consigned to hell for eternity for ignorance about Christ 'til one’s dying moments is contradictory to the goodness of God.I agree with your Hitler quote. You can’t just accept Jesus at your death. If you know of Him throughout life and fail to live for Him and through Him then you condemn yourself. As for purging ? I don’t see purgatory in Bible not did Jesus talk of such a place
As for what’s exactly in the Bible, the word Trinitarianism isn’t in the Bible either, but most major Christian denominations believe in the Trinity. If the Catholic Church disagreed with certain things in Scripture like the divinity of Jesus, the Trinity, or Purgatory, they simply wouldn’t have included those books when they compiled the Bible in the first place.
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