Purgatory: a place of torment or not?

[MJCamp]

Can you ease clarify"satisfied for the punishment due to their sins". Once again. Is not death out payment for out sins? When God created Adam., He purposes him to live on the earth forever. Yes that’s right , forever. When they sinned., it was them that God told him to dust he shall return, and he shall labor the rest of his life. That was the penalty for sin , death. Still Is … Once you are dead , the body and mind that were sinning cease to exist and therefore cannot be punished. Which is why Jesus said " The hour is coming when all those in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, Those who have done righteous things to w eternal life, and those whose works were wicked, the eternal condemnation. .

Basically, Jesus death opened the gates of Heaven for mankind and conquered the sin of Adam and Eve. All those souls who had died before Jesus death that lived by God’s commandments were then granted access to Heaven. We now have that access ouselves but will be judged at the end of our Earthly lives. We are judged on our whole life, not just our last few moments on Earth. Therefore, all our past sins in our lifetime are forgiven and allow us to enter Heaven if God permits but we must be purged and cleansed before we enter the pearly gates. We are not condemned but God’s mercy allows those who are not perfect throughout their whole Earthly life to be “saved”. Scripture supports this state of cleansing after death and has been presented throughout the thread

 

[LionHeart777]

Can you ease clarify"satisfied for the punishment due to their sins". Once again. Is not death out payment for out sins? When God created Adam., He purposes him to live on the earth forever. Yes that’s right , forever. When they sinned., it was them that God told him to dust he shall return, and he shall labor the rest of his life. That was the penalty for sin , death. Still Is … Once you are dead , the body and mind that were sinning cease to exist and therefore cannot be punished. Which is why Jesus said " The hour is coming when all those in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, Those who have done righteous things to w eternal life, and those whose works were wicked, the eternal condemnation. .

Jesus is speaking of the Resurrection there if I’m not mistaken. Our souls will be reunited with our resurrected bodies. Our souls certainly don’t cease to exist.

Regarding the Baltimore Catechism, I believe it’s referring to temporal punishment due for sins (In Catholic teaching there is a distinction between eternal and temporal punishment due to sins.)

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, right after a section on indulgences:

"'1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the ‘eternal punishment’ of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the ‘temporal punishment’ of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.84

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the ‘old man’ and to put on the 'new man.'85"

Source: scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm#1472

 

[LionHeart777]

we call it been baptized and been cleansed by recieving the holy spirit {on earth]

Why not just mention the unbaptized and unbelieving then?

 

[LionHeart777]

You are making me dig, thank you. Here is a site I found dealing with Mac-It seems it is talking of resurrection not purgatory. Resurrection for those fallen soldiers who were idolators, perhaps dying in mortal sin. It also seems prayer for the dead was not practiced yet by Jews at time of writing Macc.Here is a quote and the site- aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=3167 “Overall, even though disagreeing with Hayes as to the positive origin and affirming development of Purgatory, there was something fundamentally more honest in reading his analysis as compared to the Catholic apologists cited above. Hayes seems to realize that simply assuming the conclusion of what one wants to prove Biblically becomes tenuous in light of history. For Hayes(Catholic theologian), elements of Purgatory are found in 2 Maccabees 12, but as to purgatory proper, it was the result of development begun at the level of popular piety. For Catholic apologists, the text simply means purgatory.These are two very different approaches”.

First off, let me say that I don’t feel too bad making you dig, as I was scanning my copy of Josephus’ “Jewish Wars” vigorously at an unseemly hour for that passage (I didn’t mark it when I came across it originally.)

Here I’ll give the passage from 2 Maccabees again (slightly abridged) w/ some commentary, from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

“The tradition of the Jews is put forth with precision and clearness in 2 Maccabees. Judas, the commander of the forces of Israel,

‘making a gathering . . . sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead). And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.’ (2 Maccabees 12:43-46)

At the time of the Maccabees the leaders of the people of God had no hesitation in asserting the efficacy of prayers offered for the dead, in order that those who had departed this life might find pardon for their sins and the hope of eternal resurrection.”

James Swan and the folks at AOM have their own opinion but here we are again, disagreeing on another passage in Scripture (according to Catholic and Orthodox Christians). I was arguing for a more general post-mortem purification in the beliefs of the ancient Jews right on up to the NT period, and not the full current Catholic teaching on Purgatory which comes from Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium. To my mind, it would be anachronistic (I could be wrong and stand corrected if so) to expect to find the whole Catholic teaching in pre- NT period Judaism.

But, I don’t see how a mention of the resurrection of the dead erases the fact that here you have Jews making sacrifices and offering prayers for the dead ‘that they may be loosed from sins’, referring to a post mortem loosing from sins. If you keep this in mind, it is easy to see how the Catholic understanding of this passage is completely in line with the interpretation of the Fathers and various writers I offered you in their interpretation of Matthew 12:32.

Again, not sure if this translation of Josephus is correct-it may be_ but it may be like Macc,praying for resurrection,not to get out of purgatory .

I’m not sure what your grounds for taking issue with the translation would be, it is Penguin Books; neither the translator nor the publisher were/are Catholic.

Also, what do you mean by “praying for resurrection”? They are doing more than that. They’re making offerings on behalf of the dead and praying for them, taking both texts together.

Yes the article sites the Shammaites talking of purgatory and states the other group(s) as opposed to the idea .Also this group (religious school/think tank) began in first century.I did state earlier you might find some segment of Judaism talking of purging,as some segments of christianity do today. However it seems for the most part, and for most of their history, Jews do not hold to it (purgatory) .

About the other group mentioned in the article it says, “The Hillelites seem to have had no purgatory…Still they also speak of an intermediate state.”

Source: jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12446-purgatory

Remember, I was arguing for a more general belief of a post-mortem purification in Jewish belief. Here you can see the Hillelites admit “an intermediate state.”

With this in mind, I disagree that ancient Jews did not hold to a post mortem purification. I believe I have shown that they did, including the belief that prayers and offerings for and on behalf of the dead are efficacious, per the evidence I presented in 2 Maccabees and Josephus’ “Jewish Wars”.

 

[pocohombre]

With this in mind, I disagree that ancient Jews did not hold to a post mortem purification. I believe I have shown that they did, including the belief that prayers and offerings for and on behalf of the dead are efficacious, per the evidence I presented in 2 Maccabees and Josephus’ “Jewish Wars”.

Again, the evidence I thought suggested the practice began after Maccabees was written. Further, by many it is not sacred scripture. Even so, at face value it is intercession for the dead. There is no indication of suffering or purging gained from it. For sure it is an appeal to almighty God for mercy at their judgement on that great day.The departed are “neutral”, even soul sleeping as some believed.That God offers mercy or even grace to cover,forgive a sin is not really post mortem purification ,but waving of a deserved judgement. Two very different things.Finally,I understand Catholic inference on the matter,just find it weak and presuppositional.

Also, what do you mean by “praying for resurrection”? They are doing more than that. They’re making offerings on behalf of the dead and praying for them, taking both texts together.

Praying for what ? Resurrection and forgiveness of sins to that end.

With this in mind, I disagree that ancient Jews did not hold to a post mortem purification. I believe I have shown that they did, including the belief that prayers and offerings for and on behalf of the dead are efficacious, per the evidence I presented in 2 Maccabees and Josephus’ “Jewish Wars”.

Again ,there is evidence as you suggest but more after Maccabees, more like a century before and after Christ.Hopefully that is what you mean by ancient.Also not sure how widespread it was.They were not modern day Catholic in the sense of one conformed doctrine(s) for every believer (Jew). In may things they were varied, as in this topic.

Well if you are not denying a post mortem purification of the soul then we are closer than I thought perhaps. I don’t suspect Christ in Linda is quite there yet but we haven’t had much of a dialogue–I understand she had a lot to respond to in her defense.

Well if I am at odds with Christ in Linda (literally) then something is wrong. For sure I will be purified and be like Christ having shed my flesh,the old man forever, For sure,I will be judged,first as to my destination, secondly, for any works done upon the foundation I was given in Christ. Any works done in the flesh for Christ will be burned away, at this judgement time.Finally,as I said before all forgiveness and righteousness is thru Christ,not any suffering I do.We also have the “new man”, alive in Christ, that can enter heaven immediately, for we boldly go before the throne now, how much more at our departure from this world.

I was just thinking of Revelations and all the heavens and visions John saw. He mentions nothing of a place or state of purgatory. He quite vividly mentions many believers dying,being before the throne.Perfect time to mention something of it, but nada. Proves nothing of course. However, give it to me straight when my neck is on the chopping block,as it will be for believers in end days.Straight seems to be you are either on earth or before the Lord.

 

[Church_Militant]

I was just thinking of Revelations and all the heavens and visions John saw. He mentions nothing of a place or state of purgatory. He quite vividly mentions many believers dying,being before the throne.Perfect time to mention something of it, but nada. Proves nothing of course. However, give it to me straight when my neck is on the chopping block,as it will be for believers in end days.Straight seems to be you are either on earth or before the Lord.

That would be fine except for 1st Corinthians 3 12-15.
12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw –
13] each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
15] If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Then also there is Colossians 1:24. 24] Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

 

[LionHeart777]

Poco,

Do you believe it’s possible that the departed who die in God’s friendship can be “loosed from sins” through the intercession of others on earth?

Also, if one has sins that they need to be loosed from after death, do you believe that this would mean that they are in need of purification? Why or why not?

P.S. When I made reference to “Christ in Linda”, I was referring to the poster in this thread who goes by that name

 

[bsroufek]

If you look up “Revelations of St. Bridget” and read some of her descriptions of the sufferers in Purgatory, you come to the conclusion that Purgatory is a place of great, even unfathomable sufferering. I just read some of what she says, and I fear greatly.

Christ even keeps some of the sufferers in Purgatory from knowing that they’ll be forgiven.

I’ve also read other descriptions from saints on sufferings in Purgatory, as well as St. Faustina’s description of Hell.

My conclusion is that the only differences between Purgatory and Hell are the fact that Purgatory does end, eventually, whereas Hell is forever. Also, the demons don’t afflict you
in Purgatory.

 

[pocohombre]

That would be fine except for 1st Corinthians 3 12-15.
12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw –
13] each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
15] If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Then also there is Colossians 1:24. 24] Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

Wow. It hits me. What is more advantageous to a church, a dogma that says we by prayers, indulgences and gifts can affect judgement on the departed, or a dogma that says what is done is done, and nothing can change the “color” of a work? Sorry, I have been watching a murder mystery and it’s motive,motive, motive. I have always admitted to the seed of the doctrine in question (which this scripture is), just that we end up with totally different plants.It seems like purgatory is a “Day”, as in judgement day.I did refer to that “day” in previous post,about our works being “tried”, not our destiny, for we are written in the book of life. Our reward is NOT release from fire and finally seeing Him, for the person who has works to be lost,burned has the same reward -being saved. It is clearly a reward,based upon works(of gold) ,laid upon the work of all works, Calvary and our Christ, who has already cleansed all sins with His blood. I do not need to extrapolate that Christ cleanses beyond Calvary thru a purgatory,or that it is all possible (purgatory) because of Calvary. Seems redundant,counterintuitive. Remember the reward is according to our labor, thru Christ,labor upon His foundation.So the reward can not be heaven itself that is being mentioned here in Cor…So,this purging seems to be at the day of judgement, a purging of our carnal works,not from sins and none can help for the work is done already and must be purged. The operation must be done.Our prayers can not change that. God does not say this should take fifteen minutes but because of prayer,offerings I’ll do it in ten minutes,or I’ll double the anastesia.Again,I don’t think “sins” are layed upon Christs foundation.(Edited) My heart might be right ,but slightly deceived and carnal, and my work method will probably be torched-revealed on that Day.These are works we do in Christs name.I guess you could say my two "work"examples are "missing the mark-sin- but they are forgiven by His blood ( a Calvary thing),but my suffering( a purgatory thing ?) will be of being stripped of the work or reward.Purgatory REVEALS, not forgives a bad work in Corinthians3:13
Same seed,two different plants.

 

[pocohombre]

Do you believe it’s possible that the departed who die in God’s friendship can be “loosed from sins” through the intercession of others on earth?

Sorry, no.

Also, if one has sins that they need to be loosed from after death, do you believe that this would mean that they are in need of purification? Why or why not?

Seems like there are three things, forgiveness of sins,change in sin nature,and judging/rewarding,stripping(losing) Christian works.To the first-forgiveness, that happens cause of Calvary,not any suffering I do.Don’t think purgatory is for this. As for change in nature,that happens when we are born again,but how we reach full maturity,yes that happens as a gift,partly in death.Haven’t got clear picture beyond that.As to our works,I discussed that already,and that seems to be the closest thing to a purgatory,though much different than CC teaches.

P.S. When I made reference to “Christ in Linda”, I was referring to the poster in this thread who goes by that name

Yes, I know.

 

[LionHeart777]

Sorry, no.

Well, at least I hope I have shown you that this was the belief of the Jews (and perhaps stll is.) Interestingly, after discussing the beliefs of the Early Church Fathers, that article we were discussing from the Jewish Encyclopedia says, " Hence also arose in the [Catholic] Church the mass for the dead corresponding in the Synagogue to the Ḳaddish ([see Ḳaddish](http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/9110-kaddish))."

Seems like there are three things, forgiveness of sins,change in sin nature,and judging/rewarding,stripping(losing) Christian works.To the first-forgiveness, that happens cause of Calvary,not any suffering I do.Don’t think purgatory is for this. As for change in nature,that happens when we are born again,but how we reach full maturity,yes that happens as a gift,partly in death.Haven’t got clear picture beyond that.As to our works,I discussed that already,and that seems to be the closest thing to a purgatory,though much different than CC teaches.

As far as the forgiveness, it seems like you are saying that our sins are forgiven “past, present, and future”. Is this what you are saying?

I was interested by your statement that: “As for change in nature,that happens when we are born again,but how we reach full maturity,yes that happens as a gift,partly in death.” (Emphasis mine.) Catholic Apologist Jimmy Akin has referred to purgatory as the final rush of our sanctification. To my understanding, Eastern Orthodox Christians believe that Theosis is a process that continues after death. Here you speak of a gift that happens partly in death. Why don’t you consider this to be a post-mortem purification?

As to your allusion to 1 Corinthians 3:15, do you believe it is only the works that passes through the fire?

Also, related to your response to Church Militant, would you agree that sins are a type of work?

Yes, I know.

Forgive me for insulting your intelligence, I didn’t catch on and when I think I finally did, I wasn’t sure

 

[rcwitness]

I was just thinking of Revelations and all the heavens and visions John saw. He mentions nothing of a place or state of purgatory. He quite vividly mentions many believers dying,being before the throne.Perfect time to mention something of it, but nada. Proves nothing of course. However, give it to me straight when my neck is on the chopping block,as it will be for believers in end days.Straight seems to be you are either on earth or before the Lord.

That would be fine except for 1st Corinthians 3 12-15.
12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw –
13] each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
15] If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Then also there is Colossians 1:24. 24] Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

In light of these passages from Church Militant…and these:

Matthew 18:23-35
Luke 12:42-48

…We have a sense of the reality that the actions, deeds, or works which actually contradict the “new life” in which we are saved to live, even though may have been granted the gift of salvation from ultimate loss and death…there is a loss, price, beating, sufferring or punishment to be accounted for. These can be dealt with through repentance and “fruits of repentance”-John the Baptist, in this life, but through the “fire” of God’s purging. This purging, as Matthew makes clear, is not for the sake of punishment but a true conversion of heart (Matt.18:35)

The images of “fire” and “prison” and “beatings” are not literal. True Purgatory is like fire, and like prison, and like a beating…but not exactly.

Then after reading and understanding these passages in light of the teachings of Purgatory, you will know what Jesus means when he says, “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done…” Rev. 22.12

Michael

 

[pocohombre]

Well, at least I hope I have shown you that this was the belief of the Jews (and perhaps stll is.) Hence also arose in the [Catholic] Church the mass for the dead corresponding in the Synagogue to the Ḳaddish I

“Originally, it had no relation whatsoever to the prayers, and still less to the dead. In the course of time the power of redeeming the dead from the sufferings of Gehenna came to b[e ascribed, by some, to the recitation of the Ḳaddish”. (see Ḳaddish)" . .As I have stated, it is more proper to say kaddish is by some Jews something to do like your purgatory, by some,and at a much later date The article seems to say Catholics do not base it on Judaism but sects of Judaism base it, on Catholicism…I would not lump all the Jews together, as I would not like an “outsider”(Buddhist) to say Christians,as in all, believe in purgatory. Finally,notice the kaddish prayer says nothing of the dead.

As far as the forgiveness, it seems like you are saying that our sins are forgiven “past, present, and future”. Is this what you are saying?

That is what some say. Actually I thought the basis for any grace and merit, even to get out of purgatory are only possible because of Calvary. What I am saying is our robes are washed white by the Blood of the lamb, as per Revelations(CH 4 ?)

I was interested by your statement that: “As for change in nature,that happens when we are born again,but how we reach full maturity,yes that happens as a gift,partly in death.” (Emphasis mine.) Catholic Apologist Jimmy Akin has referred to purgatory as the final rush of our sanctification. To my understanding, Eastern Orthodox Christians believe that Theosis is a process that continues after death. Here you speak of a gift that happens partly in death. Why don’t you consider this to be a post-mortem purification?

Big questions. Certainly the final death of our flesh is a big gift, and may be the only thing keeping us from being truly like Him. Certainly when our works are revealed and tried may be the when final likeness occurs. Now I am not sure if our personal trial is at the judgement seat of Christ, at His coming( 1 Cor4:5)or immediately when we die. St.Paul says the dead in Christ will rise first, then we which are alive will meet Him in the air .Don’t see any purification needed to meet him in the air. Maybe the efficacy of the cross is greater than we know, and we are like Elijah and Enoch and can go directly into His presence . Let me ask you, do you feel you, as a Christian, are worthy to enter the Holy of Holies? Can you boldly go before the throne ? Just how does the Father see us in light of Christ in us? Anyways ,back to post mortem purification.I see it as those possible scenarios I just gave you ,a bit all over the place except with Catholic purgatory.Not even close.Same seed though.

As to your allusion to 1 Corinthians 3:15, do you believe it is only the works that passes through the fire?

Ch 4 goes on to say "we"are judged,but not for salvation ,which is secured.

Also, related to your response to Church Militant, would you agree that sins are a type of work?

I think works can obviously be off the mark-sin, wood hay and stubble, and won’t cut the mustard thankfully.So yes there is the seed,but more in terms of judgement,before Him, before His light.

 

[pocohombre]

In light of these passages from Church Militant…and these:

Matthew 18:23-35
Luke 12:42-48

…We have a sense of the reality that the actions, deeds, or works which actually contradict the “new life” in which we are saved to live, even though may have been granted the gift of salvation from ultimate loss and death…there is a loss, price, beating, sufferring or punishment to be accounted for. These can be dealt with through repentance and “fruits of repentance”-John the Baptist, in this life, but through the “fire” of God’s purging. This purging, as Matthew makes clear, is not for the sake of punishment but a true conversion of heart (Matt.18:35)

The images of “fire” and “prison” and “beatings” are not literal. True Purgatory is like fire, and like prison, and like a beating…but not exactly.

Then after reading and understanding these passages in light of the teachings of Purgatory, you will know what Jesus means when he says, “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done…” Rev. 22.12

Michael

Good stuff. Your last point, Revelations, my KJV says the Lord is coming (for His bride) with “rewards”. Like Paul says, everyone (Christian) will get the praise of God.Though it doesn’t say it here,a reward to be just must be by looking at everything that is of value to be rewarded-with the discarding of some works. It does not infer a “state” but an event, His coming and His judgement…Matthew- I would agree there is a chastening, perhaps like Paul said, many of you are sickly,even asleep, for poor discernment of the body of Christ. I read that “tormentors” has root meaning for sickness, and or adverse circumstances. So some have relegated this chastening to this side of life. But I can see why you would see purgatory here, just disagree…Luke, seems to be the same as Matt but different. He says his portion is with “unbelievers”. The degrees of punishment may be to the degree of sin and not heeding His warnings,the light that we were given. Just because he was a servant to me does not mean they are "saved’ or even a true believer. The Jews were supposed to be servants of the most high God relative to all the other nations of the world, but we know many, many were not born again, servants in name only. Many of Jesus’s teachings address this problem. So I am not sure this or even Matt deals with believers when speaking of “asunder,stripes,torment”. If it does,it may be chastisement on this side of life,for we both agree I hope that happens also (Ananias and Saphira and Paul’s warnings I mentioned earlier). I would agree to a "suffering’,“loss”,even rebuke(stripe ?) at our judgement for our wood hay and stubble,but as an event not a state.

 

[rcwitness]

Good stuff. Your last point, Revelations, my KJV says the Lord is coming (for His bride) with “rewards”. Like Paul says, everyone (Christian) will get the praise of God.Though it doesn’t say it here,a reward to be just must be by looking at everything that is of value to be rewarded-with the discarding of some works. It does not infer a “state” but an event, His coming and His judgement…Matthew- I would agree there is a chastening, perhaps like Paul said, many of you are sickly,even asleep, for poor discernment of the body of Christ. I read that “tormentors” has root meaning for sickness, and or adverse circumstances. So some have relegated this chastening to this side of life. But I can see why you would see purgatory here, just disagree…Luke, seems to be the same as Matt but different. He says his portion is with “unbelievers”. The degrees of punishment may be to the degree of sin and not heeding His warnings,the light that we were given. Just because he was a servant to me does not mean they are "saved’ or even a true believer. The Jews were supposed to be servants of the most high God relative to all the other nations of the world, but we know many, many were not born again, servants in name only. Many of Jesus’s teachings address this problem. So I am not sure this or even Matt deals with believers when speaking of “asunder,stripes,torment”. If it does,it may be chastisement on this side of life,for we both agree I hope that happens also (Ananias and Saphira and Paul’s warnings I mentioned earlier). I would agree to a "suffering’,“loss”,even rebuke(stripe ?) at our judgement for our wood hay and stubble,but as an event not a state.

I see. I feel like you, perhaps, have a similar view of Purgatory as C.S. Lewis…? Not sure if you are familiar, if not, its worth checking out. He seems to understand Purgatory as an inevitable "purging"and likens it to a dental ‘mouth wash’ after tooth removal (or root canal, or something) but disagrees with “Romish doctrine”, yet notes that its correct understanding was restored in “Newman’s dream” (?). Basically, I think the difference may lie in the punishments.

This would be the most understandable thing to accepting Catholic Purgatory. I admitt, I don’t have full grasp of the “temperal punishments”. My personal view is that addressed in the very end of Matthew’s ch. 18:35. The punishments of Purgatory are not at all the same as those in hell. This lies in the fact that purgatory is a “corrective” action aimed at our hearts. It is, therefore, not productive to merely “hurt” someone in order to form conversion of the heart, but a “revealing” of the ugliness of sin (through a way known only to God) that can draw all of the attatchments and resulting consequences of sin out of our hearts. This can only be accomplished in a soul that has a foundational faith and love of Christ in their heart.

PS. as for the KJV difference, i’m a little surprised. I don’t have one. I use two bibles, one the RSV/RSVCE and the other ESV. They both are exact same in this Rev. 22:12 verse.

 

[pocohombre]

I see. I feel like you, perhaps, have a similar view of Purgatory as C.S. Lewis…? Not sure if you are familiar, if not, its worth checking out. He seems to understand Purgatory as an inevitable "purging"and likens it to a dental ‘mouth wash’ after tooth removal (or root canal, or something) but disagrees with “Romish doctrine”, yet notes that its correct understanding was restored in “Newman’s dream” (?). Basically, I think the difference may lie in the punishments.

This would be the most understandable thing to accepting Catholic Purgatory. I admitt, I don’t have full grasp of the “temperal punishments”. My personal view is that addressed in the very end of Matthew’s ch. 18:35. The punishments of Purgatory are not at all the same as those in hell. This lies in the fact that purgatory is a “corrective” action aimed at our hearts. It is, therefore, not productive to merely “hurt” someone in order to form conversion of the heart, but a “revealing” of the ugliness of sin (through a way known only to God) that can draw all of the attatchments and resulting consequences of sin out of our hearts. This can only be accomplished in a soul that has a foundational faith and love of Christ in their heart.

Do know of C.S.Lewis, don’t know of Newman’s dream. There is no better “mouth” wash than being face to face with Him. David says search me out, wash me, but be merciful if not I would vaporize before you. Agree on temporal punsihments.Can you imagine thinking Jesus will have me scourged before I can see Him? Does not compute. By His stripes we are healed. If we do not accept, trust in, the punishment He took, the Work he did, then we must stand on our own work (Great white Throne Judgement at end of Revelations) and take our own punishment. I agree with your corrective action, revealing ugliness of our wood ,hay and stubble. I believe this can be done thru His judgement, His review of the matter, His revealing light shed on us and our works.Did not Peter feel the sting, the shame of His sin on the boat or somewhere as he said,“Depart from me Lord for I am a sinful man”. Can you not feel Peter cringing ? It is like His holiness, His gaze will burn right thru you, and the only thing left is His image in us. I have heard that goldsmith and silversmiths know when the melted metal is finally pure, the slag taken away, when they can see themselves in it, as like in a mirror.So thankfully we agree on the end of us all, to be like Him, a right heart indeed, done in His love.I say it is finished with His judgement(judgement seat of Christ),you in purgatorial judgement. Blessings

 

[steve_b]

Do know of C.S.Lewis, don’t know of Newman’s dream. There is no better “mouth” wash than being face to face with Him. David says search me out, wash me, but be merciful if not I would vaporize before you. Agree on temporal punsihments.Can you imagine thinking Jesus will have me scourged before I can see Him? Does not compute. By His stripes we are healed. If we do not accept, trust in, the punishment He took, the Work he did, then we must stand on our own work (Great white Throne Judgement at end of Revelations) and take our own punishment. I agree with your corrective action, revealing ugliness of our wood ,hay and stubble. I believe this can be done thru His judgement, His review of the matter, His revealing light shed on us and our works.

Did not Peter feel the sting, the shame of His sin on the boat or somewhere as he said,“Depart from me Lord for I am a sinful man”. Can you not feel Peter cringing ? It is like His holiness, His gaze will burn right thru you, and the only thing left is His image in us. I have heard that goldsmith and silversmiths know when the melted metal is finally pure, the slag taken away, when they can see themselves in it, as like in a mirror.So thankfully we agree on the end of us all, to be like Him, a right heart indeed, done in His love.I say it is finished with His judgement(judgement seat of Christ),you in purgatorial judgement. Blessings

Hebrews 12:6-10 , 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 , 2 Peter 3:7-15
clearly shows chastisements for God’s children. There is no place in scripture that says Jesus suffered so we don’t have to suffer. There is no place in scripture that says we won’t endure any kind of punishment what so ever because Jesus endured it all. Note the analogy of being outside of time, in 2 Pet 3, It’s possible 1 day in Purgatory might be like 1000 years

 

[BarryI]

and it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot
of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and elijah went up by a whirlwind
into HEAVEN - kings 2:11
although i have heard different theries about this some do think we will have to await the
coming of christ and some think some could have been taken directly to heaven from death.
when jesus was on the cross one of the robbers said to him - “lord remember me when thou
comest into thy kingdom” and jesus said to him “verily i say unto thee , today shalt thou be
with me in paradise”
i do agree with you on the issue of purgatory as i have not read real evidence of this.

As for the passage of the thief in the cross, did Jesus say"verily I say unto thee, today thou shalt be with me in paradise". Or " Verily I say unto thee today,thou shalt be with me in paradise" indicating he would be, but at a later date on judgement day.

 

[pocohombre]

Hebrews 12:6-10 , 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 , 2 Peter 3:7-15
clearly shows chastisements for God’s children.
​

Yes,agreed as I posted #330 and others before this, mentioning Ananias/Saphira,and for this “many of you are sick even aslleep”,and hebrews. It could be a foundation for purgatory, but maybe not. Maybe it is only on this side of life for sure scripturally speaking .Hebrews goes on to say in verse 11 " no chastening for the present seems to be joyous."

There is no place in scripture that says Jesus suffered so we don’t have to suffer

Absolutely agree. For sure we will reap what we sow to the flesh and for sure we will have persecution, and for sure we will be chastised. It is not a cake walk, as scripture points out. Scripture also points out He is our full propitiation. His suffering cleanses us from sin. Chastisement corrects us but His blood cleanses us. So I guess I am saying certain sufferings are no longer necessary, and in fact could be considered a work in the flesh, an affront to Calvary. But yes, other “sufferings” do us good,as per Hebrews. We are in a race.The race ends when we die. I think the admonishments in scripture are for this race, here and now, not for when it is finished. Why would I need “correction” when it is over ? Analysis, review, let’s see how we did,see the replay, yes, but it is over, and on with the critique,judgement,loss (big ouch) and reward.

Note the analogy of being outside of time, in 2 Pet 3, It’s possible 1 day in Purgatory might be like 1000 years

What is outside of time ? That is with the Lord ,but on this side of life, it is still a 24 hour day. Actually this time irrelevancy makes me think purgatory need not be place (it is called a “state”) but simply His judgement of our lives. Will not our life be reviewed before the Lord, on that Day ,as Paul states ? Whatever purgatory can produce, why can not this "judgement’ produce ? Newmans’ Dream predecessor, a 15-16th century nun and her poem, seem to allude to some of this, this purifying by the Lord himself, and his loving gaze/review of us.​

 

[rcwitness]

I say it is finished with His judgement(judgement seat of Christ),you in purgatorial judgement. Blessings

Newmans’ Dream predecessor, a 15-16th century nun and her poem, seem to allude to some of this, this purifying by the Lord himself, and his loving gaze/review of us.

Without criticizing views of Gods judgement, which are indeed a mystery…I might just point out that it is not “I” who says there is a Purgatory, but the Church.

And I see you are referencing “Newman’s Dream”…I haven’t even the slightest clue what it is still I better check it out!

Take care bro,
Michael