Purgatory: a place of torment or not?

[Church_Militant]

Are you sure church teachings are protected fro error by the Holy Spirit, or can they just be influenced by satan. Do you not believe satan and his followers would try their hardest to steer all awAy from bible truths through doctrines of man? Jesus Himself quoted Isaiah " this people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me . In vain do they worship Me. Teaching as doctrine, human precepts . Also you are assuming that Lazarus went to purgatory ? When Jesus clearly specified there was a great chasm between him and the rich man. Maybe I’m missing something here but that to me is an assumption.

Well, the first Bible truth that they seem to have led some away with would be the new winds of doctrines of modern men called Sola Scriptura, which has no biblical support fro its position that the Bible is the final and only authority for all that Christians believe and practice. You cannot provide such supporting scripture because none exists. See the following threads where that is explored.
It’s NOT in the Bible, okay?
It’s NOT in the Bible, okay? (Part II)
“If anyone teaches/preaches something that is not in scripture”

Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ did indeed promise that His church would never teach error because He tells us.
Matthew 28:18] And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19] Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20] teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

I am not Protestant. I am merely just an individual guided by an outside force to seek the truth. Do to not think Jesus Himself knew that there would be many false messiahs and phrophets to follow Him and mislead man? Do you not think Satan would infiltrate Jesus’ church itself to spread false doctrines? What better way to mislead the biggest church in the world . That is why Jesus said. Many will come to me on that day and say" Lord Lord. Did we not preach in thy name? Did we not drive out demons in Thy name? Did we not perform mighty deeds in thy name? And surely I will reply , I do not know you.

Yes, I know that Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ warned us of exactly such things, however, having read the Bible many times (and still doing so) I also know that what the Bible teaches and what you have thus far proposed are two different things. For example, you just edited out a very important part of that last verse in Matthew 7:23, which tells us that it was not the people’s doctrine that was at issue but their lack of conversion from their sinful lives. It actually reads, 23] And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’

Because then Jesus would have contradicted Himself in all of the parables and teachings . Are you sure that the comma was put in the right spot? Based on all of Jesus’ teachings, then the comma would have been put after “today”, and not before it. "Truly I Tell you this today, you will be with me in paradise " indicating He was saying " as sure as I am hanging here on this cross and talking to you today, then yes you will be with me in paradise in the resurrection . If you view it as such, then everything Jesus said lines up with this. If it is interpreted the other way, then everything is contradictory.

Do you have any evidence that (or authority for that matter) to assert that that comma is in the wrong place? No…you do not, because there is none and your reading makes nonsense of the verse in its context because of what St. Dismas actually said to Our Blessed Lord. See here from Luke 23:42] And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43] And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

The only contradictions here are those which your personal interpretation have thus far displayed. This is one of the reasons that St. James says in his epistle. 1] Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, for you know that we who teach shall be judged with greater strictness. (James 3:1)

Can I ask you a question here? Do you not think it is possible for Satan to mislead the Church through false human doctrine? Therefore misleading an entire organization, except for the true believers who believe what was written in the bible writings over human doctrines?

Indeed I do. That’s why I wrote this article. Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?

 

[Church_Militant]

You realize you are asking a Catholic if Jesus actually meant the gates of hell will prevail against His Church, right?

I believe it may be the other way around…The Church was established before the Bible. The Bible was compiled by the Church, and supports the Church’s teaching. The Bible coupled with Sacred Tradition both make up the Church.
Tim3:15
15"But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."
Jesus entrusted the Church to save souls

Well said Brothers!

One need only look at the contradictions and inconsistencies of so many n-C/a-C teachers/preachers and their adherents to see that in contrast to the consistent teaching of the Catholic Church for all of Christian history.http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/sign0011.gif

 

[josigirl]

Can I ask you a question here? Do you not think it is possible for Satan to mislead the Church through false human doctrine? Therefore misleading an entire organization, except for the true believers who believe what was written in the bible writings over human doctrines?

Christ established the Church. St Peter the first Pope. The Head of Our Church is Christ, Himself. You either agree with this or you don’t? There pretty much is not a lukewarm answer here.

As human beings were all fall short of the Grace of God. As one body, The Church, The Lord Guides. God wants nothing more than for us to Love him COMPLETELY. To TRUST him completely. FAITH is what Jesus wants us to have. Not complete knowledge but complete faith.

Was not Judas chosen as a disciple! God knew him and his heart. Would you ask God “why do you choose him as a disciple knowing what he was going to do?” I wouldn’t, because it is evident today why. TRUST IN HIM!!!

Everything that happens in this world, good and bad, WILL lead and end up being for God’s Glory. Nothing is without a purpose! Trust in him! Ask Him to help!

 

[josigirl]

You realize you are asking a Catholic if Jesus actually meant the gates of hell will prevail against His Church, right?

I believe it may be the other way around…The Church was established before the Bible. The Bible was compiled by the Church, and supports the Church’s teaching. The Bible coupled with Sacred Tradition both make up the Church.
Tim3:15
15"But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."
Jesus entrusted the Church to save souls

If someone struggles with Purgatory due to a fear of slandering Gods grace, that is understood. This should be our focus in reassuring brothers that it is not outside of honoring Gods total grace.

But that is precicely the thing that we do when we sin as new children of God…sin against His gracious life in us! That is a burning contradiction that we committ. If brothers and sisters can’t see how that demands a participation in the agony of what we are (not just what we did) then they just are both not understanding the ugliness of sin nor the heights of purity of the almighty, in which our sin touches.

So, we must deny ourselves all the more. So our sin does not define us. That the grace of Christ defines us.

If Peter, in this life, wept so bitterly because he, through faith, realized what he had done…how would he have felt if he would have died before being able to stand up after his shamefull denial? Not able to repent through the conviction of his conscience and witness to all the way in which he cowardly smothered all the blessings Jesus performed for him! Not able to tell the world,“Yes! I was a fool!” He would have not been able to forgive himself without chastisement from His righteous Lord!

That’s how I see temporal punishment

Love It!!! God Bless

 

[pablope]

Can I ask you a question here? Do you not think it is possible for Satan to mislead the Church through false human doctrine? Therefore misleading an entire organization, except for the true believers who believe what was written in the bible writings over human doctrines?

No…because Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to guide the Church into all truth…so either you believe in Jesus’ promise or not.

But this is not to say the Satan has tried with all his might.

Therefore misleading an entire organization, except for the true believers who believe what was written in the bible writings over human doctrines?

I think the only ones who have been misled are those who separated from the CC…this is evidenced by the thousands of protestant denoms all saying they have the truth.

Remember, Jesus prayed for Peter so that he will not fall to Satan and would in fact, strenghten his fellow apostles? If you look at the history of the early church…when the church faced heresies…it was always Rome that maintained the truth of the faith…via the bishop of Rome…the successor of St. Peter.

And lastly, this is what the Bible says:

from 1John 4… Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world……………6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

As you can see from the passage…it says not to read the Bible to know the spirit of truth…but listen to the apostles.

Which is what was revealed to St. Paul:

Galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

 

[murraymuzz]

Purgatory is a suffering willingly taken on out of love for Christ, like Christ willingly suffered his passion out of love for us. Sin is addictive, and you can look at purgatory like a rehab centre, you are clean (forgiven of sin) yet the addiction to sin still remains and purgatory is a chance for us to burn away all attachment to sin because some of us are not able to finish the job while on earth. That is all it is. Heaven and Hell are the final destination after we die, purgatory is the path to heaven and either in this life or the next we must detach ourselves from sin. Because to be in heaven is to be totally and absolutely addicted to the Holy Trinity, and that can’t happen if we have more than one addiction.

 

[Carlan]

Purgatory is a suffering willingly taken on out of love for Christ, like Christ willingly suffered his passion out of love for us. Sin is addictive, and you can look at purgatory like a rehab centre, you are clean (forgiven of sin) yet the addiction to sin still remains and purgatory is a chance for us to burn away all attachment to sin because some of us are not able to finish the job while on earth. That is all it is. Heaven and Hell are the final destination after we die, purgatory is the path to heaven and either in this life or the next we must detach ourselves from sin. Because to be in heaven is to be totally and absolutely addicted to the Holy Trinity, and that can’t happen if we have more than one addiction.

 

[Carlan]

The purging of sin in our life is part of our growth in holiness.
It is part of the process of complete salvation.
Purgatory is the state,after death, in which it is completed if it has not been accomplished In life before death. Peace, Carlan
P.S. Barry L, I hope you will stay with us for a while and discover the fullness of Christs revelation which has been handed down to us through the Apostles and their descendants.

 

[MJCamp]

I believe it may be the other way around…The Church was established before the Bible. The Bible was compiled by the Church, and supports the Church’s teaching. The Bible coupled with Sacred Tradition both make up the Church.
Tim3:15
15"But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."
Jesus entrusted the Church to save souls

2 Thessalonians 3:6

" 6 Now we command you, brothers,sin the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,tthat you keep away from anyu brothervwho is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us."

 

[dandy1822]

As for the passage of the thief in the cross, did Jesus say"verily I say unto thee, today thou shalt be with me in paradise". Or " Verily I say unto thee today,thou shalt be with me in paradise" indicating he would be, but at a later date on judgement day.

i don,t know if this could vary with different bibles. to the revised KJ it is verily i say unto
thee, to day shalt thou be with me in paradise. in matt - 3:1+2 it says repent ye for the
kingdom of heaven is at hand and also in mark - 1:14+15 it says the kingdom of god is at
hand so it could make that possible.

when you was talking about lazarus it made me think of another verse in matt - 10:7+8
about raise the dead, i wonder if that was why jesus was doing it.

 

[BarryI]

No…because Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to guide the Church into all truth…so either you believe in Jesus’ promise or not.

But this is not to say the Satan has tried with all his might.

I think the only ones who have been misled are those who separated from the CC…this is evidenced by the thousands of protestant denoms all saying they have the truth.

Remember, Jesus prayed for Peter so that he will not fall to Satan and would in fact, strenghten his fellow apostles? If you look at the history of the early church…when the church faced heresies…it was always Rome that maintained the truth of the faith…via the bishop of Rome…the successor of St. Peter.

And lastly, this is what the Bible says:

from 1John 4… Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world……………6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

As you can see from the passage…it says not to read the Bible to know the spirit of truth…but listen to the apostles.

Which is what was revealed to St. Paul:

Galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

This will be my last reply to anymore on purgatory. I am not, or was not trying to mislead or convert anyone to a new belief. I was merely looking for the verse, or verses in the bible where Jesus revealed to the Apostles about purgatory. So far no one has furnished me with anything. I have received a lot of verses and passages that talk about a lot of other things that people would like to think pertains to a place called purgatory, but none of them hold any water.
Remember it was a very, very long span from when Jesus left the earth to the time of the bible.And in that time, the only ones who had access to the scriptures were bishops. No one was allowed to look at what was written.And if Jesus prayed that Peter would not fall to Satan, and he walked with and witnessed Jesus, how much more easier would it have been for Satan to corrupt another mortal man who was a priest, or bishop, or the whole congregation.
I only put it out there so anyone who was confused about purgatory could review what Jesus said and taught his Apostles, and keep asking, searching, and knocking for the truth. Once again I will state my case here clearly. Jesus never spoke of a purging of sin after death, nor did he tell the Apostles to teach it. If there was any relevance to it, surely Jesus would have spoke about it as it would have been one of the most important things. There is no in between. Also, can anyone tell me , if there is a purgatory, what happens if you don’t make it, that all your sins can’t be purged. Then what?
Remember, Jesus spoke the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. There was no mention of a purgatory in that story. Also, the wages of sin is death. I can’t believe I read that someone had said that you are judged immediately after death. If that is the case, then God and Jesus lied to us about Judgement Day when Jesus returns. Sorry, but that is the facts. Why , would you be resurrected to judgement on Judgement Day,(whether it is 1 thousand years ,or 1 day) if you’ve already died and were judged?Thats it I only wanted people to use an open mind and search for answers, the truth. If you are satisfied with your findings, great. If not, then keep searching. God Bless all of you and I wish you the best in your search .

 

[Carlan]

?

Thats it I only wanted people to use an open mind and search for answers, the truth. If you are satisfied with your findings, great. If not, then keep searching. God Bless all of you

Thank you for your visit Barry, I am sorry you were not able to open your mind fully enough to accept the full Truth of Christ’s revelation as it was explained so throughly here at Catholic answers for you. It seems the word purgatory has been the cause of a mental block for you here,
We pray not to lean on our own understanding but for enlightenment of all Truth.
Just one more time before you leave, the following…

The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.
Two Judgments
When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that “it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment” (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be. At the end of time, when Jesus returns, there will come the general judgment to which the Bible refers, for example, in Matthew 25:31-32: “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.” In this general judgment all our sins will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2–5).
Augustine said, in The City of God, that “temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment” (21:13). It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: “I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper” (Luke 12:59).
Peace, Carlan

 

[rcwitness]

This will be my last reply to anymore on purgatory. I was merely looking for the verse, or verses in the bible where Jesus revealed to the Apostles about purgatory. So far no one has furnished me with anything. I have received a lot of verses and passages that talk about a lot of other things that people would like to think pertains to a place called purgatory, but none of them hold any water. And if Jesus prayed that Peter would not fall to Satan, and he walked with and witnessed Jesus, how much more easier would it have been for Satan to corrupt another mortal man who was a priest, or bishop, or the whole congregation.

Jesus never spoke of a purging of sin after death, nor did he tell the Apostles to teach it. There is no in between.
Remember, Jesus spoke the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. There was no mention of a purgatory in that story. Also, the wages of sin is death. I can’t believe I read that someone had said that you are judged immediately after death. If that is the case, then God and Jesus lied to us about Judgement Day when Jesus returns. Sorry, but that is the facts. Why , would you be resurrected to judgement on Judgement Day,(whether it is 1 thousand years ,or 1 day) if you’ve already died and were judged?Thats it I only wanted people to use an open mind and search for answers, the truth.

If you were looking for verse by verse explanation. You won’t find it. Catholics agree with you.

We have provided verses which support the teaching. The teaching is from the Apostolic succession.

When you say,"…How easy would it be for Satan to corrupt a whole congregation.". what do you consider a "whole congregation? A local communion? We consider the “whole congregation” the whole Catholic Apostolic Church. This is protected from satan by our Lord. She is the mouth piece of Jesus Christ.

The faith of the Church does not require a mere open mind. It requires an open heart. This full leap of faith in Him, alone, will give you understanding of purgatory.

The Church does not require you to believe in Purgatory in order to be saved through your faith in Christ and good works grounded in Him and His Father’s will.

The bible is not merely a book of facts. It is a book of faith. The faith handed down from one generation to all ever after. Purgatory is not a contradiction to our life in Jesus…It is a blessing given to us. The work of Our Lord who takes away the sins of the world.

God bless,
Michael

 

[Carlan]

If you were looking for verse by verse explanation. You won’t find it. Catholics agree with you.

We have provided verses which support the teaching. The teaching is from the Apostolic succession.

When you say,"…How easy would it be for Satan to corrupt a whole congregation.". what do you consider a "whole congregation? A local communion? We consider the “whole congregation” the whole Catholic Apostolic Church. This is protected from satan by our Lord. She is the mouth piece of Jesus Christ.

The faith of the Church does not require a mere open mind. It requires an open heart. This full leap of faith in Him, alone, will give you understanding of purgatory.

The Church does not require you to believe in Purgatory in order to be saved through your faith in Christ and good works grounded in Him and His Father’s will.

The bible is not merely a book of facts. It is a book of faith. The faith handed down from one generation to all ever after. Purgatory is not a contradiction to our life in Jesus…It is a blessing given to us. The work of Our Lord who takes away the sins of the world.

God bless,
Michael

peace, Carlan

 

[BarryI]

I believe it may be the other way around…The Church was established before the Bible. The Bible was compiled by the Church, and supports the Church’s teaching. The Bible coupled with Sacred Tradition both make up the Church.
Tim3:15
15"But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."
Jesus entrusted the Church to save souls

If you were looking for verse by verse explanation. You won’t find it. Catholics agree with you.

We have provided verses which support the teaching. The teaching is from the Apostolic succession.

When you say,"…How easy would it be for Satan to corrupt a whole congregation.". what do you consider a "whole congregation? A local communion? We consider the “whole congregation” the whole Catholic Apostolic Church. This is protected from satan by our Lord. She is the mouth piece of Jesus Christ.

The faith of the Church does not require a mere open mind. It requires an open heart. This full leap of faith in Him, alone, will give you understanding of purgatory.

The Church does not require you to believe in Purgatory in order to be saved through your faith in Christ and good works grounded in Him and His Father’s will.

The bible is not merely a book of facts. It is a book of faith. The faith handed down from one generation to all ever after. Purgatory is not a contradiction to our life in Jesus…It is a blessing given to us. The work of Our Lord who takes away the sins of the world.

God bless,
Michael

Ok here I will use an open mind. You say the whole congregation is protected from Satan by Jesus. If so, them can you explain to me all the pedophile priests who committed their heinous acts of sodomy and molestation on young boys in their congregation? Sorry but I beg to differ. Satan was allowed to corrupt those priests and they responded. End of story.

 

[Carlan]

Ok here I will use an open mind. You say the whole congregation is protected from Satan by Jesus. If so, them can you explain to me all the pedophile priests who committed their heinous acts of sodomy and molestation on young boys in their congregation? Sorry but I beg to differ. Satan was allowed to corrupt those priests and they responded. End of story.

We humans are sinners , Barry. We do not justify the sins of man only God does that.
We have a merciful Father who forgives and retores us, if only we are remorseful and seek his forgiveness.

 

[BarryI]

We humans are sinners , Barry. We do not justify the sins of man only God does that.
We have a merciful Father who forgives and retores us, if only we are remorseful and seek his forgiveness.

Yes. But that does not explain what was written earlier in this thread where you said the congregation is protected from Satan.Are we to believe that all of those who did those heinous acts as well as other priests and or bishops who embezzled money or other acts not members of the congregation ? Surely they are. They took a vow to serve God. But how then, if they were protected from Satan did they do this?

 

[steve_b]

I’m curious to how death does not release us from memory or intellect .

The body dies not the soul

The soul being immortal, means memory intellect and will that is part of the soul is also immortal. Death of the body merely means the body ceases to exist. Not so for the soul or it’s properties. The soul doesn’t sleep, doesn’t die, it is fully functional…forever.
B:

Can you elaborate on this? I do believe it was said " the dead are conscious of nothing at all". OT in Ecclisiastes, I believe.

When Jesus died, His body died NOT His soul. His body went to the tomb. But His spirit went immediately to preach to the souls in prison, those who have been there since the time of Noah 1 Peter 3:18-20 How can Jesus preach to souls if they aren’t live, AND have no memory intellect or will? It shows they are live, and have full capacity of their memory intellect and will.

BTW, Jesus is not preaching to the damned in these passages. The damned are in hell of the damned. Since heaven has been closed since Adam & Eve, heaven won’t be open for souls to go there till He ascends back to heaven.

As for the quote you refer to, note the answer in the commentary
Ecclesiastes 9:4-6

 

[LionHeart777]

Yes. But that does not explain what was written earlier in this thread where you said the congregation is protected from Satan.Are we to believe that all of those who did those heinous acts as well as other priests and or bishops who embezzled money or other acts not members of the congregation ? Surely they are. They took a vow to serve God. But how then, if they were protected from Satan did they do this?

I don’t think Carlan meant to imply that the clergy are protected from committing sins (at least in the sense that they cannot sin.) Carlan may be talking about infallibility and not impeccability, the latter is what you seem to be hung up on. I hope this helps.

 

[BarryI]

I don’t think Carlan meant to imply that the clergy are protected from committing sins (at least in the sense that they cannot sin.) Carlan may be talking about infallibility and not impeccability, the latter is what you seem to be hung up on. I hope this helps.

No sir. He said the congregation, ie, the Catholic Church , is protected from Satan, and I asked him how can that be if all those atrocities happened. Seems like someone tempted them. And I don’t think it was God or Jesus.