Purgatory: a place of torment or not?

[Michael_Francis]

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Off topic posts have been deleted.

Please return to topic “Purgatory: a place of torment or not?”.

If other concepts need discussion then comply with the Forum Rules and open a new thread on that topic.*

 

[MJCamp]

Also, can anyone tell me , if there is a purgatory, what happens if you don’t make it, that all your sins can’t be purged. Then what?
Remember, Jesus spoke the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. There was no mention of a purgatory in that story. Also, the wages of sin is death. I can’t believe I read that someone had said that you are judged immediately after death. If that is the case, then God and Jesus lied to us about Judgement Day when Jesus returns. Sorry, but that is the facts. Why , would you be resurrected to judgement on Judgement Day,(whether it is 1 thousand years ,or 1 day) if you’ve already died and were judged?Thats it I only wanted people to use an open mind and search for answers, the truth. If you are satisfied with your findings, great. If not, then keep searching. God Bless all of you and I wish you the best in your search .

If you don’t make it you are condemned to Hell. Purgatory is a gateway to heaven to purify your soul. If we are not judged after death then where are all the souls who have departed this Earth? Whereare the Apostles, Prophetes, and Saints?

 

[Doxiemom]

You are right. I guess I am just not into believing Doctrines that came from the minds of man. Sorry that I don’t believe in purgatory but only the Bible truths. And the Catholic Hierarchy over the years were just like the Jewish leaders of old and inserting their own laws to their own words just like now. So until someone can show me proof of a place or state of being after death for “purging ones sins” that Jesus or any of the Bible writers spoke of, then I will not believe someone’s interpretation of it. Thank you. It was a pleasure

My I suggest that the Judgement Seat of Christ that entails purging by fire items that will burn up or made pure is what the doctrine of Purgatory came from.

What confuses me is why the need to change the name given in scripture and where did the items go and get replaced by the soul itself getting burned… Why is Jesus absent?

 

[BarryI]

If you don’t make it you are condemned to Hell. Purgatory is a gateway to heaven to purify your soul. If we are not judged after death then where are all the souls who have departed this Earth? Whereare the Apostles, Prophetes, and Saints?

They are in their tombs in the ground. Remember Jesus said in Matthew :" the hour is coming when ALL in the tombs will hear His voice and come out. Those who have done good things to everlasting life, and those works were wicked, to eternal damnation. That’s the facts .Period, Why would Jesus say this if it were not true?

 

[LionHeart777]

My I suggest that the Judgement Seat of Christ that entails purging by fire items that will burn up or made pure is what the doctrine of Purgatory came from.

What confuses me is why the need to change the name given in scripture and where did the items go and get replaced by the soul itself getting burned… Why is Jesus absent?

Hi Doxiemom,

As was established on this thread earlier, Purgatory has it’s roots in the ancient Jewish belief of a post-mortem purification.

It appears as if you are referencing 1 Corinthians 3:15. If you are, notice that it is the man as well who goes through the fire, not just the works. (To paraphrase Tim Staples in his debate with James White on this passage, there are no works floating around by themselves.)

Also, what do you mean by “Why is Jesus absent” ? Where did this idea come from?

 

[MJCamp]

They are in their tombs in the ground. Remember Jesus said in Matthew :" the hour is coming when ALL in the tombs will hear His voice and come out. Those who have done good things to everlasting life, and those works were wicked, to eternal damnation. That’s the facts .Period, Why would Jesus say this if it were not true?

How did Jesus speak to Moses and Elijah?

 

[BarryI]

How did Jesus speak to Moses and Elijah?

That I cannot answer, other than it was a vision the 3 Apostles witnessed at the same time on the mountain during the transfiguration. Don’t know if Jesus produced them as if they were alive from the past to show them that they would be helping Jesus in His kingdom at a later date to get them to believe.Remember Moses and Elijah were hand picked by God to help his people. That is why Jesus said Elijah had already come and the people did to him what they wanted, just as they will do to the Son of Man.Moses and Elijah will be by Jesus’ side in His Kingdom when He comes. Jesus never said they were in Heaven, He only showed them “A Vision” , of things to come, just as all John saw a vision in Revelation, of things to come.

 

[LionHeart777]

They are in their tombs in the ground. Remember Jesus said in Matthew :" the hour is coming when ALL in the tombs will hear His voice and come out. Those who have done good things to everlasting life, and those works were wicked, to eternal damnation. That’s the facts .Period, Why would Jesus say this if it were not true?

BarryI,

No one is suggesting that Jesus lied, rather, you have misunderstood what He said. In the passage you reference, Jesus is referring to the general judgement and not the particular judgement (Hebrews 9:27) that we will all face immediately after death. The existence of the former does not erase the existence of the latter.

Furthermore, your interpretation of St. John 5:28-29 (that’s what I believe you reference above), contradicts the Sacred Scriptures. A couple more examples are:

1.) The parable of the rich man and Lazarus where they are both conscious after death.

2.) Revelations ch. 5 for example, those in Heaven are conscious and aware of what is happening on earth; even offering up the prayers of those on the earth to God.

3.) 1 Peter 3:19-20, in reference to Jesus Christ says, “[19] In which also coming he preached to those spirits that* were in prison*: [20] Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.”

Interestingly, the underlined portion is commented upon in the
Douay-Rheims Bible w/ Challoner’s notes: "[19]* Spirits that were in prison*: *See here a proof of a third place, or middle state of souls: for these spirits in prison, to whom Christ went to preach, after his death, were not in heaven; nor yet in the hell of the damned: because heaven is no prison: and Christ did not go to preach to the damned.
*

Anyways,I have a few questions in light of your interpretation John 5:28-29:

1.)Who do you believe Christ was preaching to in 1 Peter 3:19-20?

2.) Where do you think souls go after (physical) death?

3.) Would you define physical death as the separation of the soul and body?

 

[Doxiemom]

Hi Doxiemom,

As was established on this thread earlier, Purgatory has it’s roots in the ancient Jewish belief of a post-mortem purification.

It appears as if you are referencing 1 Corinthians 3:15. If you are, notice that it is the man as well who goes through the fire, not just the works. (To paraphrase Tim Staples in his debate with James White on this passage, there are no works floating around by themselves.)

Also, what do you mean by “Why is Jesus absent” ? Where did this idea come from?

Thank you for your time

The point of difference between us is that you say that this place called Purgatory is outside of Heaven and one cannot enter into heaven because they are still impure.

A non-Catholic perspective is this: if you are “saved”,your sins are covered by the shed Blood of Jesus Christ, die in this state, you enter into Heaven immediately. Your sins are forgiven, buried in the Sea of Forgetfullness, never to be remembered any more. Now, however, your works( which is different and separate from your spirit), for good or worse, are what go through the purging fire. There is no pain, no suffering. What will be left will be the purified jewels, gold and silver. Your reward. Placed on your white robe, placed on your crown(s). Note, the person is already cleansed of sin, by His Blood. His name had been written into the Book of Life. He is in heaven.With Christ.

I cannot find a reference, or a catholic, (and you can show me if I am wrong. I prefer to be corrected if wrong) that’says that Jesus is present in Purgatory. Everything points to this as a place of suffering for the soul. One priest actually said that even a unborn baby must enter into purgatory to feel some suffering and pain. And this place is outside of heaven.

Bottom line is, it appears that purgatory is a place of torment. Whereas the Scriptural Judgement Seat is not for the soul does not suffer. “Works” go through this fire.

 

[LionHeart777]

Thank you for your time

The point of difference between us is that you say that this place called Purgatory is outside of Heaven and one cannot enter into heaven because they are still impure.

A non-Catholic perspective is this: if you are “saved”,your sins are covered by the shed Blood of Jesus Christ, die in this state, you enter into Heaven immediately. Your sins are forgiven, buried in the Sea of Forgetfullness, never to be remembered any more. Now, however, your works( which is different and separate from your spirit), for good or worse, are what go through the purging fire. There is no pain, no suffering. What will be left will be the purified jewels, gold and silver. Your reward. Placed on your white robe, placed on your crown(s). Note, the person is already cleansed of sin, by His Blood. His name had been written into the Book of Life. He is in heaven.With Christ.

I cannot find a reference, or a catholic, (and you can show me if I am wrong. I prefer to be corrected if wrong) that’says that Jesus is present in Purgatory. Everything points to this as a place of suffering for the soul. One priest actually said that even a unborn baby must enter into purgatory to feel some suffering and pain. And this place is outside of heaven.

Bottom line is, it appears that purgatory is a place of torment. Whereas the Scriptural Judgement Seat is not for the soul does not suffer. “Works” go through this fire.

You bet, and you for yours!

We’ve got a few things going on here, and as a former Protestant, I can see where you are coming from, but I have obviously had a change of heart.

1 issue is, what I’ve heard referred to as “snow covered dunghills” (the view you seem to advocate), versus the Catholic (and Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Christian) view that God actually makes us righteous through our cooperation with His Grace. Once clean, we can defile ourselves (Rev. 3:4), and regarding the Book of Life, we read in the very next verse:

“[5] He that shall overcome, shall thus be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.”

The one that overcomes will not have his name blotted out; thus signifying that there are those who can have their name blotted out (they would be sent to Hell).

I’m going to head down to the basement and do some oil painting while I have the house to myself, but I wanted to give you a citation from Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI’s document, Spe Salvi. In commenting on 1 Corinthians 3:15, he writes:

“47. Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation ‘as through fire’. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ’s Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy. It is clear that we cannot calculate the ‘duration’ of this transforming burning in terms of the chronological measurements of this world. The transforming “moment” of this encounter eludes earthly time-reckoning—it is the heart’s time, it is the time of ‘passage’ to communion with God in the Body of Christ[39]. The judgement of God is hope, both because it is justice and because it is grace. If it were merely grace, making all earthly things cease to matter, God would still owe us an answer to the question about justice—the crucial question that we ask of history and of God. If it were merely justice, in the end it could bring only fear to us all. The incarnation of God in Christ has so closely linked the two together—judgement and grace—that justice is firmly established: we all work out our salvation ‘with fear and trembling’ (Phil 2:12). Nevertheless grace allows us all to hope, and to go trustfully to meet the Judge whom we know as our ‘advocate’, or parakletos (cf. 1 Jn 2:1).”

If you reference the document, you will notice that the “fire” is a metaphor, rather than a literal fire. The idea of a literal fire was also not imposed upon the Greeks in the Council of Florence; a reunion that unfortunately did not last.

Anyways, thoughts…?

 

[LionHeart777]

Also I wanted to add, but didn’t do it quick enough:

I said:

“1 issue is, what I’ve heard referred to as “snow covered dunghills” (the view you seem to advocate), versus the Catholic (and Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Christian) view that God actually makes us righteous through our cooperation with His Grace.”

This process, provided we continue to cooperate with God’s Grace in this life, will continue after death if it has not yet been completed then. The post-mortem finishing of this process is what the Catholic Church refers to as Purgatory, although more is taught on it.

 

[steve_b]

They are in their tombs in the ground. Remember Jesus said in Matthew :" the hour is coming when ALL in the tombs will hear His voice and come out.

Yes the body is in the tomb, but not the soul. As was mentioned in previous posts, souls are immortal they don’t die, they don’t sleep. They aren’t still with the body after death of the body. Witness, Jesus spirit went to preach to the souls in prison, after He died on the cross, while His body went to the tomb. Once created by God, the immortal soul which can’t sleep or die, possessing memory intellect and will is fully functional forever…so when one dies, it’s lights out for the body till the end of time, but not the soul. The soul is judged and goes off to either heaven, purgatory or hell. Beside the example of Jesus after His death, (body going to the tomb, His spirit going to preach to the souls in prison who have been there since the days of Noah), here’s

further evidence

3 OT figures, Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man have all died. Heaven is not open to anyone since the sin of Adam. So Abraham, & Lazarus aren’t in heaven yet, and the rich man is in torment. Jesus the Redeemer is telling the story [Luke 16:19-31 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Luke Chapter 16)

after death of the body, Jesus shows us before His own death occurs

• souls don’t die. We see, memory intellect and will, all properties of the soul, are fully functional in the 3 people spoken of by Jesus. The fact the rich man knows Abraham and is able to communicate with him, and see him, and Lazarus as well, shows the soul is fully aware in the next life.
• One could also ask, with no cameras in that day, how did the rich man even recognize Abraham? How does anyone for that matter, recognize anyone else when one is pure spirit, + considering people who died 1000’s of years prior?
• in the afterlife, Jesus allows us to see in detail, that good and bad exist for a soul, depending on how one lived in this life, and we are somehow able to recognize one another even without a body.
• it isn’t lost on the apostles that Abraham who hasn’t been seen for more than 1000 years, yet he isn’t dead in spirit but alive in the spirit and has been alive for all that time waiting for the redeemer to open heaven. And we see the rich man and Lazarus are also alive in the spirit after their death. The rich man remembers his relatives in his past life, and doesn’t want them to come to the place he is in now. Even asking Abraham’s intercession on their behalf.
• One can also ask how can the spirit (the soul) feel and experience anything being spirit?Obviously having memory intellect and will, fully functional, the soul can still process what was good and bad experienced in the flesh, and somehow recognize individuals even without physical bodies…

B:

Those who have done good things to everlasting life, and those works were wicked, to eternal damnation. That’s the facts .Period, Why would Jesus say this if it were not true?

It’s true. And that reality comes via judgement at the time of one’s death. The 2 testaments show a 3rd reality. A temporary reality that isn’t heaven nor hell, but a purifying reality before entrance into heaven. The OT describes it as a refiners fire [Malachias (Malachi) 3:2-7 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Malachias (Malachi) Chapter 3) the NT equivilent is [1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (Douay-Rheims Bible, 1 Corinthians Chapter 3)

Abraham, Lazarus, and the rich man’s souls all went through a particular judgement when they died. Their bodies went to the grave, but their souls went elsewhere as judged. And that elsewhere began immediately after their death.

 

[BarryI]

Yes the body is in the tomb, but not the soul. As was mentioned in previous posts, souls are immortal they don’t die, they don’t sleep. They aren’t still with the body after death of the body. Witness, Jesus spirit went to preach to the souls in prison, after He died on the cross, while His body went to the tomb. Once created by God, the immortal soul which can’t sleep or die, possessing memory intellect and will is fully functional forever…so when one dies, it’s lights out for the body till the end of time, but not the soul. The soul is judged and goes off to either heaven, purgatory or hell. Beside the example of Jesus after His death, (body going to the tomb, His spirit going to preach to the souls in prison who have been there since the days of Noah), here’s

further evidence

3 OT figures, Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man have all died. Heaven is not open to anyone since the sin of Adam. So Abraham, & Lazarus aren’t in heaven yet, and the rich man is in torment. Jesus the Redeemer is telling the story [Luke 16:19-31 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Luke Chapter 16)

after death of the body, Jesus shows us before His own death occurs

• souls don’t die. We see, memory intellect and will, all properties of the soul, are fully functional in the 3 people spoken of by Jesus. The fact the rich man knows Abraham and is able to communicate with him, and see him, and Lazarus as well, shows the soul is fully aware in the next life.
• One could also ask, with no cameras in that day, how did the rich man even recognize Abraham? How does anyone for that matter, recognize anyone else when one is pure spirit, + considering people who died 1000’s of years prior?
• in the afterlife, Jesus allows us to see in detail, that good and bad exist for a soul, depending on how one lived in this life, and we are somehow able to recognize one another even without a body.
• it isn’t lost on the apostles that Abraham who hasn’t been seen for more than 1000 years, yet he isn’t dead in spirit but alive in the spirit and has been alive for all that time waiting for the redeemer to open heaven. And we see the rich man and Lazarus are also alive in the spirit after their death. The rich man remembers his relatives in his past life, and doesn’t want them to come to the place he is in now. Even asking Abraham’s intercession on their behalf.
• One can also ask how can the spirit (the soul) feel and experience anything being spirit?Obviously having memory intellect and will, fully functional, the soul can still process what was good and bad experienced in the flesh, and somehow recognize individuals even without physical bodies…

It’s true. And that reality comes via judgement at the time of one’s death. The 2 testaments show a 3rd reality. A temporary reality that isn’t heaven nor hell, but a purifying reality before entrance into heaven. The OT describes it as a refiners fire [Malachias (Malachi) 3:2-7 (Douay-Rheims Bible, Malachias (Malachi) Chapter 3) the NT equivilent is [1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (Douay-Rheims Bible, 1 Corinthians Chapter 3)

Abraham, Lazarus, and the rich man’s souls all went through a particular judgement when they died. Their bodies went to the grave, but their souls went elsewhere as judged. And that elsewhere began immediately after their death.

Once again I have to ask. Why would God create man and woman out of the earth and tell them to go and multiply ,populate the earth. If He wanted us in Heaven He would have made us spirit beings like the angels. His purpose for mankind , made of flesh and blood was to live on the earth forever. It was a paradise earth then until Satan corrupted them and took it all away. We were born flesh and blood and will be resurrected flesh and blood, not spirits. We’re not spirits now. That is why Jesus was resurrected back in the flesh. To show the apostles they would too, As for the parable, these were all stories not to be taken in the literal sense, but as a picture so to speak. The Jews of that time believed there was a heaven and a hell . Jesus didnt say that is what happens after death, but was merely pointing to the resurrection and everlasting life snd eternal damnation. You’re missing the point of that parable. Jesus was clearly speaking of His impending death and how no one would believe someone who came back fr the dead to warn others what awaits. He knew the world would have a hard time believing someone who rode from the dead. Rather they would listen to their own pagan beliefs and traditions.

 

[Doxiemom]

But I think you got it backwards. In genesis, it was God Who wanted fellowship with man. It was God Who came down to walk in cool of the Garden, which was Heaven on earth.

 

[BarryI]

But I think you got it backwards. In genesis, it was God Who wanted fellowship with man. It was God Who came down to walk in cool of the Garden, which was Heaven on earth.

Right, but man was still a human form designed to live on the earth forever,not a spirit creature. Why would God create man to enjoy earth and all its goodness if He wanted us to be in Heaven with Him and all the angels? Would He not then have created us to be with Him in Heaven instead? And have association and interaction with the angels?

 

[LionHeart777]

Right, but man was still a human form designed to live on the earth forever,not a spirit creature. Why would God create man to enjoy earth and all its goodness if He wanted us to be in Heaven with Him and all the angels? Would He not then have created us to be with Him in Heaven instead? And have association and interaction with the angels?

BarryI,

Your eschatology seems to jump from the death of the individual to the final (general) judgement, but Scripture is not abridged so. There is consciousness of the soul and things that occur between the death of the individual and the general judgement, which after come the new Heaven and the new earth. At the very least, this huge “piece” (or better, “pieces”) of the “eschatological puzzle” you are missing, you seem to fill up with this idea of “soul sleep”, which as myself and others have been trying to point out, contradicts the Sacred Scriptures (as well as Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium of the Catholic Church).

This concept of a new Heaven and a new earth is spoken of here in the CCC:

"*VI. THE HOPE OF THE NEW HEAVEN AND THE NEW EARTH

1042 At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. After the universal judgment, the righteous will reign for ever with Christ, glorified in body and soul. The universe itself will be renewed:

The Church . . . will receive her perfection only in the glory of heaven, when will come the time of the renewal of all things. At that time, together with the human race, the universe itself, which is so closely related to man and which attains its destiny through him, will be perfectly re-established in Christ.631
1043 Sacred Scripture calls this mysterious renewal, which will transform humanity and the world, 'new heavens and a new earth.'632 It will be the definitive realization of God’s plan to bring under a single head 'all things in [Christ], things in heaven and things on earth.'633

1044 In this new universe, the heavenly Jerusalem, God will have his dwelling among men.634 'He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away.'635

1045 For man, this consummation will be the final realization of the unity of the human race, which God willed from creation and of which the pilgrim Church has been 'in the nature of sacrament.'636 Those who are united with Christ will form the community of the redeemed, ‘the holy city’ of God, 'the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.'637 She will not be wounded any longer by sin, stains, self-love, that destroy or wound the earthly community.638 The beatific vision, in which God opens himself in an inexhaustible way to the elect, will be the ever-flowing well-spring of happiness, peace, and mutual communion.

1046 For the cosmos, Revelation affirms the profound common destiny of the material world and man:

For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God . . . in hope because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay. . . . We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.639
1047 The visible universe, then, is itself destined to be transformed, ‘so that the world itself, restored to its original state, facing no further obstacles, should be at the service of the just,’ sharing their glorification in the risen Jesus Christ.640

1048 'We know neither the moment of the consummation of the earth and of man, nor the way in which the universe will be transformed. The form of this world, distorted by sin, is passing away, and we are taught that God is preparing a new dwelling and a new earth in which righteousness dwells, in which happiness will fill and surpass all the desires of peace arising in the hearts of men.'641

1049 'Far from diminishing our concern to develop this earth, the expectancy of a new earth should spur us on, for it is here that the body of a new human family grows, foreshadowing in some way the age which is to come. That is why, although we must be careful to distinguish earthly progress clearly from the increase of the kingdom of Christ, such progress is of vital concern to the kingdom of God, insofar as it can contribute to the better ordering of human society.'642

1050 'When we have spread on earth the fruits of our nature and our enterprise . . . according to the command of the Lord and in his Spirit, we will find them once again, cleansed this time from the stain of sin, illuminated and transfigured, when Christ presents to his Father an eternal and universal kingdom.'643 God will then be ‘all in all’ in eternal life:644

True and subsistent life consists in this: the Father, through the Son and in the Holy Spirit, pouring out his heavenly gifts on all things without exception. Thanks to his mercy, we too, men that we are, have received the inalienable promise of eternal life.645"

Source: vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm

 

[steve_b]

Once again I have to ask. Why would God create man and woman out of the earth and tell them to go and multiply ,populate the earth. If He wanted us in Heaven He would have made us spirit beings like the angels.

Angels can’t repopulate, and are NOT made to His image and likeness. We otoh, are. Genesis 1:26 .

And God doesn’t force angels to be with Him in heaven anymore than He forces us to be with Him. The angels went through their test. 1/3 of them failed. Now we are in our test. There is the same possibility of success and failure for us depending on one’s perseverence and obedience to Jesus.
B:

His purpose for mankind , made of flesh and blood was to live on the earth forever.

His purpose for us is that we would become like Him in His image and likeness Genesis 1:26 not just a metaphore but actually be like Him in His image and likeness.
B:

It was a paradise earth then until Satan corrupted them and took it all away. We were born flesh and blood and will be resurrected flesh and blood, not spirits. We’re not spirits now.

We are soul and flesh. We are both. The flesh is mortal, the soul is immortal. At death of the body the soul seperates from the body. The body is dead, not the soul. The soul is immediately judged and goes to either heaven, or everlasting punishment.
B:

That is why Jesus was resurrected back in the flesh. To show the apostles they would too,

At the end of the world, the reason for the resurrection of the body is to bring body and soul back together again… perfected!. Jesus shows the perfection of both. The body won’t die ever again. Both body and soul will live forever, & not just the soul. Those who have died and are now in the spirit in heaven at the end of the world, are reunited to there resurrected body. They are now in heaven body & soul together forever. Those in hell are there body and soul together…forever.

Before the end of the world comes, the souls of all who have ever lived, have already been individually judged, and are either in heaven or hell, … or purgatory waiting for the completion of purification to enter heaven.
B:

As for the parable, these were all stories not to be taken in the literal sense, but as a picture so to speak. The Jews of that time believed there was a heaven and a hell .

Abraham in the story is real. Heaven, hell, purgatory, are real. They are not clever stories only meant to capture a person’s imagination. They are real. And btw, while Jews don’t officially call it purgatory, they believe in a purification process after death Malachias (Malachi) 3:2-7. That’s why they pray for the dead 2 Machabees 12:44-46 . No need to pray for someone who is in heaven they don’t need prayers, and prayers do no one good who are in hell. It presumes belief in a purification process before entrance into heaven, & that prayers and fasting here by loved ones for the dead, can help them in their purification process.

And since the OT is types and shadows pointing to their completion and fulfillment that comes in the NT, It’s instructive that God the Son, 2nd person of the Blessed Trinity, the one who spoke in the beginnig and all was created, redeemer of the world, and the one who will be the judge of all, is telling the story.
B:

Jesus didnt say that is what happens after death, but was merely pointing to the resurrection and everlasting life snd eternal damnation.

He most certainly IS telling us what will happen. He’s the one who judges ALL. The judge is telling us how He will judge and what will happen. Therefore we pay particular attention. The fact Jesus is telling us in advance, via the story, that there are people who won’t believe even if someone rises from the dead, He knows already who they will be. And at their death, they WILL find themselves in the same place the rich man finds himself. What are they going to say when that day comes for THEM? Gee, I thought it was only a parable? I didn’t think you were serious?
B:

You’re missing the point of that parable. Jesus was clearly speaking of His impending death and how no one would believe someone who came back fr the dead to warn others what awaits. He knew the world would have a hard time believing someone who rode from the dead. Rather they would listen to their own pagan beliefs and traditions.

Keep in mind where YOUR beliefs and traditions come from…it’s Protestantism.

 

[BarryI]

Angels can’t repopulate, and are NOT made to His image and likeness. We otoh, are. Genesis 1:26 .

And God doesn’t force angels to be with Him in heaven anymore than He forces us to be with Him. The angels went through their test. 1/3 of them failed. Now we are in our test. There is the same possibility of success and failure for us depending on one’s perseverence and obedience to Jesus.

His purpose for us is that we would become like Him in His image and likeness Genesis 1:26 not just a metaphore but actually be like Him in His image and likeness.

We are soul and flesh. We are both. The flesh is mortal, the soul is immortal. At death of the body the soul seperates from the body. The body is dead, not the soul. The soul is immediately judged and goes to either heaven, or everlasting punishment.

At the end of the world, the reason for the resurrection of the body is to bring body and soul back together again… perfected!. Jesus shows the perfection of both. The body won’t die ever again. Both body and soul will live forever, & not just the soul. Those who have died and are now in the spirit in heaven at the end of the world, are reunited to there resurrected body. They are now in heaven body & soul together forever. Those in hell are there body and soul together…forever.

Before the end of the world comes, the souls of all who have ever lived, have already been individually judged, and are either in heaven or hell, … or purgatory waiting for the completion of purification to enter heaven.

Abraham in the story is real. Heaven, hell, purgatory, are real. They are not clever stories only meant to capture a person’s imagination. They are real. And btw, while Jews don’t officially call it purgatory, they believe in a purification process after death Malachias (Malachi) 3:2-7. That’s why they pray for the dead 2 Machabees 12:44-46 . No need to pray for someone who is in heaven they don’t need prayers, and prayers do no one good who are in hell. It presumes belief in a purification process before entrance into heaven, & that prayers and fasting here by loved ones for the dead, can help them in their purification process.

And since the OT is types and shadows pointing to their completion and fulfillment that comes in the NT, It’s instructive that God the Son, 2nd person of the Blessed Trinity, the one who spoke in the beginnig and all was created, redeemer of the world, and the one who will be the judge of all, is telling the story.

He most certainly IS telling us what will happen. He’s the one who judges ALL. The judge is telling us how He will judge and what will happen. Therefore we pay particular attention. The fact Jesus is telling us in advance, via the story, that there are people who won’t believe even if someone rises from the dead, He knows already who they will be. And at their death, they WILL find themselves in the same place the rich man finds himself. What are they going to say when that day comes for THEM? Gee, I thought it was only a parable? I didn’t think you were serious?

Keep in mind where YOUR beliefs and traditions come from…it’s Protestantism.

Let me ask this then. Are the souls that you say are in Heaven waiting to be resurrected with their bodies able to function, and see all that is going on in the world? Witnessing every immoral act by their family, relatives and friends? Also do you pray to them like you do the saints ?

 

[Evan]

Let me ask this then. Are the souls that you say are in Heaven waiting to be resurrected with their bodies able to function, and see all that is going on in the world? Witnessing every immoral act by their family, relatives and friends? Also do you pray to them like you do the saints ?

Last question is easiest. If they are in heaven, they are saints!!!

How would we know what God allows them to know? With the Saints that have worked miracles, God must have let them know we asked them to pray for us, for their prayers to God were answered by God.

I have prayed to some dear relatives and have received help from God, possibly because of their prayers. No miracles, just help.

It is only by God’s permissive will that they would know what is happening on Earth, in Time, and that we asked them to pray for us.

 

[pablope]

Let me ask this then. Are the souls that you say are in Heaven waiting to be resurrected with their bodies able to function, and see all that is going on in the world? Witnessing every immoral act by their family, relatives and friends? Also do you pray to them like you do the saints ?

Barryl:

In this passage from Matthew:

Matthew 22:30
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels[a] in heaven.

Meaning…those in heaven are like angels…or have attributes of angels.

Do you think angels can talk to humans? Do you think angels pray for us? Do you think angels know what is going on on earth?

And also look at these passages from Revelation:

Rev 8:
3 Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.

REv 5…8 When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Angels and saints are the ones who bring prayers to God…both angels and saints do the same thing.

Do you think these passages from Revelations describe what is happening in heaven?