Purgatory and 1 Corinthians 15:52

[sandusky]

Church Militant:

Are they? Do they explcitly name Jesus as the Son of God? No they do not, you read them automatically projecting the doctrine onto to them. These are implied statements that you read from a 2,000 year advantage and the very same Christian traditions that every other believer in the diety of Christ do.

So you are saying that I have an advantage over those who read those statements 10 years after Christ’s death. What does that have to do with it?
Church Militant:

The big differenece is that you refuse to consider the possibilty that the same rules apply to the passages that ehave already been cited to you.

No, I have considered the possibility, but dismiss it in light of scriptures statements with respect to the sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.
Church Militant:

Not at all, but I simply point out that you are inconsistent in your thinking about implied doctrines in the Word of God.

Not so. There is much evidence that builds upon the truths of Christ’s Deity, His incarnation, and the Triune nature of God, and the excellencies thereof in the completed work of salvation of Christ on the cross.

However, there is no evidence to support the so-called “implied” doctrine of purgatory.
Church Militant:

The only relevent part of the passage is the term “the age to come”… Now what sins are forgiven and how does that come to pass and what exactly else could that phrase mean? You tell me that it cannot be Purgatory…fine. Tell us then what it DOES mean.

For the third time, the passage is saying that the sin of blaspheming the H.S. will never be forgiven.
Church Militant:

I have no need to enumerate any sins sins since the list would consist of all sins except the one that Jesus mentioned. This would even include all Mortal sins (“a sin that leads to death”) that were repented and confessed as well as all Venial sins (those that do not lead to death.

So it is your position that Catholicism teaches that sins repented of in this life are not forgiven in this life, but in the life to come?

From that it would seem that purgatory is much more than the CCC presents, and much different from everything everyone, other than you, have presented on this thread.

Thank you for that clarification.
Church Militant:

You think? but the very passage that you cite says otherwise.1 I say then: Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people, which he foreknew. Know you not what the scripture saith of Elias; how he calleth on God against Israel? 3 Lord, they have slain thy prophets, they have dug down thy altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the divine answer to him? I have left me seven thousand men, that have not bowed their knees to Baal.

Is it your contention that those Jews who have died in unbelief and rejection of God’s savior will be saved?
Church Militant:

The issue has nothing at all to do with the sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice. It has to do with reparation, purification, and holiness. It has to do with loving God.

How is it that you believe that Christ’s sacrifice was sufficient on the one hand, and that reparations are still pending from the believer on the other hand?

 

[bene7]

Pryority7:

Bene, you said that Adam and Eve were not under Grace, but under Law…
Where is your scriptural proof of this

"And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die” (Gen. 2:16-17]This, my dear misguided friend, is pure law. If they transgressed the commandment (and they did) they would suffer the consequences (and they did). And because Adam was the federal head of all mankind, when Adam sinned we all sinned in him, hence, we all die (1 Cor. 15:22; Rom. 5:12).

The Law you’re talking about is the Old Testament law under Moses that God gave.

Nope! Not at all talking about the Mosaic Law which was given to Israel.

Adam and Eve were not exposed to a formal written law because in their unfallen state it was already in their hearts.

No it wasn’t, it was verbally commanded to Adam and Adam no doubt verbally passed the commandment along to his wife. The Lord did not create Eve until AFTER he had commanded Adam, prohibiting him from eating of the tree (see Gen. 2:16-18).

Their bodies, spirits and souls were united and in harmony with God. They were filled with the supernatural eternal life that is meant for all of us.

If Adam and Eve were created “with the supernatural eternal life” (whatever that is) in them, they would not have died either spiritually or physically, even after their transgression of the commandment. The FACT they’re not with us today, and the FACT that God the Son had to come into this world to redeem Adam’s posterity from the eternal consequences of sin, and the FACT that He Himself is another Adam (the “Last Adam”), all disprove your theology. Adam and Eve were created innocent, but they were not created righteous or with “eternal life” in them.

When I say Adam and Eve were under law, I am not at all referring to the Mosaic Law, but the “principle” of law: “thou shalt not eat…” Totally unlike the true believer today who is now in Christ, the “Last Adam”:"…for you are not under law (i.e., the principle of law), but under grace (i.e., the principle of grace).What you utterly fail to understand, Pry., is that true believers are no longer “in Adam,” but “in Christ” “made righteous” (Rom. 5:19).“But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption” (1 Cor. 1:30]This is what is called GRACE: unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor. God’s written Word is VERY explicit that sinners are to be saved by grace through faith alone (Eph. 2:8-9). It is Satan’s device to complicate this simple fact with the lesser issues of Christian living. The issues of Christian living are certainly important, but they must not be elevated to the danger of obscuring, replacing, even destroying, the pure Gospel message of God’s infinite GRACE toward the fallen sons of Adam through the Person and work of His own “only begotten Son.” The extra-biblical doctrine of purgatory has successfully accomplished this for many.

Pry, the supreme motive in God’s salvation of men by pure GRACE through faith alone is found in Eph. 2:7:"in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing (exceeding) riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus"Ultimately, it was not innocent man that was God’s ideal, but redeemed man, through which He will demonstrate before all intelligences - principalities, powers, celestial and terrestrial beings - the exceeding riches of His GRACE. Through men all intelligences will know the depth of sin and the hopeless state of the lost. They’ll, in turn, behold men redeemed (by Christ’s blood) and saved (through faith alone) from that estate through pure grace appearing in the highest glory - like Christ (1 John 3:1-2). Redeemed men will, for all eternity, be living, walking examples of God’s infinite GRACE for all creation to see. They will not just know of His grace, they will see it in the redeemed.

So it is important, even this side of glory, that one not obscure that GRACE.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[ncgolf]

"And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die” (Gen. 2:16-17]
This, my dear misguided friend, is pure law. If they transgressed the commandment (and they did) they would suffer the consequences (and they did).

Law always will exist where there is free will. Free will, by its nature, is the ability to choose either a lawful or unlawful action. This will not change in Heaven because God will not remove our ability to choose. He wants us to be willing partners.

[Totally unlike the true believer today who is now *in Christ

, the “Last Adam”:"…for you are not under law (i.e., the principle of law), but under grace (i.e., the principle of grace).What you utterly fail to understand, Pry., is that true believers are no longer “in Adam,” but “in Christ” “made righteous” This is where your fiction begins. I would hope you knew what a true believer is but you don’t. You cannot see it even in yourself. Jesus says in Matthew 13 … last sentence … that He does not come for the rightheous but for sinners. Woe to the righteous … hmmm why would Jesus say that. You cannot ever call yourself righteous … that is not your call … you can only call yourself what you are … a sinner. Describe for me in scripture how you know a true believer, how can one tell a true believer from a non-believer or a partial believer?

[his is what is called GRACE: unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor. God’s written Word is VERY explicit that sinners are to be saved by grace through faith alone (Eph. 2:8-9). It is Satan’s device to complicate this simple fact with the lesser issues of Christian living. The issues of Christian living are certainly important, but they must not be elevated to the danger of obscuring, replacing, even destroying, the pure Gospel message of God’s infinite GRACE toward the fallen sons of Adam through the Person and work of His own "*only begotten Son

." The extra-biblical doctrine of purgatory has successfully accomplished this for many.

So it is important, even this side of glory, that one not obscure that GRACE. Grace though an umerited, undeserving gift from God has a second component. It must be freely received. God will never force His grace on you … that would be God overriding your free will and that will never happen … even in Heaven. Just remember where you are Bene … you are on this side of Heaven … you must pass through death and judgement before Heaven … oh I forgot for you it is only death … judgement isn’t needed since the end of your story is already known.

I dont understand how you cannot be affected by sin. You still have free will dont you. You still can choose cant you. What do you do if you sin? Can a true believer still be a sinner?

 

[hurst]

bene7:

When I say Adam and Eve were under law, I am not at all referring to the Mosaic Law, but the “principle” of law: “thou shalt not eat…” Totally unlike the true believer today who is now in Christ, the “Last Adam”:"…for you are not under law (i.e., the principle of law), but under grace (i.e., the principle of grace).

You seem to have a misguided notion of law and grace.

Even believers are under the rule of Christ, who gave us a new commandment.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

Being under grace does not exempt us from this commandment, but enables us to fulfill it. Jesus said He came not to abolish the law.

Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

The old law (of any kind) did not enable anyone to fulfill it, but only to be punished for not fulfilling it.

Christ came to “fulfill” the law, to perfect it. He perfected it by adding charity (love). And He enables us to fulfill His justice, because His sacrifice obtained the graces for us to do so.

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned to death; so also grace might reign by justice unto life everlasting, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh; God sending his own Son, in the likeness of sinful flesh and of sin, hath condemned sin in the flesh; 4 That the justification of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit.

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of the good things to come, not the very image of the things; by the selfsame sacrifices which they offer continually every year, can never make the comers thereunto perfect …

The law was unable to make us fulfill the law. Christ came and now enables us to fulfill the perfected law, the law of charity, which is the fulfillment of the law.

Romans 13:10 The love of our neighbour worketh no evil. Love therefore is the fulfilling of the law.

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

James 2:8 If then you fulfill the royal law, according to the scriptures, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself; you do well.

So when Jesus gave us His new commandment, it was also the old one, but perfected. Love our neighbor not just as we love ourselves, but as Christ loved us. For Christ’s love for us is greater.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

And if we do not do this, then we do not really abide in Him, and are not really “in” Christ.

1 John 2:3 And by this we know that we have known him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He who saith that he knoweth him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But he that keepeth his word, in him in very deed the charity of God is perfected; and by this we know that we are in him.

And we are called to this perfection!

Matthew 5:43 You have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thy enemy. 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you: 45 That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust. 46 For if you love them that love you, what reward shall you have? do not even the publicans this? 47 And if you salute your brethren only, what do you more? do not also the heathens this? 48 Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.

To be perfect, we must love perfectly. To love perfectly, we must love all, even our enemies. We must love as Christ did. We must truly imitate Him. That is why Christ came, to perfect the work of the Father (us).

John 4:34 Jesus saith to them: My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, that I may perfect his work.

John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me; that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me.

So if we break the law now, not only will we be punished, but we will be punished more severely, because we had the means to fulfill it and didn’t!

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

What you utterly fail to understand, Pry., is that true believers are no longer “in Adam,” but “in Christ” “made righteous” (Rom. 5:19).“But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption” (1 Cor. 1:30]

We hope so, don’t we?

1 John 2:3 And by this we know that we have known him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He who saith that he knoweth him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But he that keepeth his word, in him in very deed the charity of God is perfected; and by this we know that we are in him.

If we don’t keep His commandments, then we are not “in Him”, and have offended the one who made us righteous. God is not mocked.

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived, God is not mocked. 8 For what things a man shall sow, those also shall he reap. For he that soweth in his flesh, of the flesh also shall reap corruption. But he that soweth in the spirit, of the spirit shall reap life everlasting. 9 And in doing good, let us not fail. For in due time we shall reap, not failing. 10 Therefore, whilst we have time, let us work good to all men, but especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

Your version of the Gospel is not supported by scripture. Or do you say that Eph 2:8-9 overrides Gal 6:7-10? For the above clearly shows that we must do good works by the Spirit in order to reap the reward of life everlasting in that same spirit. We must not fail to do good, so that in due time we won’t fail to reap.

We reap eternal life with the reward,

Matthew 19:29 And every one that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting.

or else eternal life at the loss of reward,

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

or perhaps the loss of all.

Matthew 25:28 Take ye away therefore the talent from him, and give it to him that hath ten talents. 29 For to every one that hath shall be given, and he shall abound: but from him that hath not, that also which he seemeth to have shall be taken away. 30 And the unprofitable servant cast ye out into the exterior darkness. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

hurst

 

[Pryority7]

(Gen. 2:16-17][/indent]This, my dear misguided friend, is pure law. If they transgressed the commandment (and they did) they would suffer the consequences (and they did). And because Adam was the federal head of all mankind, when Adam sinned we all sinned in him, hence, we all die (1 Cor. 15:22; Rom. 5:12).I’m not misguided at all. Free will is the essence of law…the divine law…the natural law…Adam and Eve possessed that perfectly and their transgression of the law already inside of them is what brought sin into the world…from inside them. Before that, they were in a pure, sinless state. We call that Santifying Grace. What do you call it? Nope! Not at all talking about the Mosaic Law which was given to Israel.No it wasn’t, it was verbally commanded to Adam and Adam no doubt verbally passed the commandment along to his wife. So you think that the law was just limited to verbal…God had a mouth at that time? The law by the Spirit of God speaks in a different kind of way sir…donn’t assume that you knew that it was spoken simply because it was written. The Lord did not create Eve until AFTER he had commanded Adam, prohibiting him from eating of the tree (see Gen. 2:16-18).If Adam and Eve were created “with the supernatural eternal life” (whatever that is) in them, they would not have died either spiritually or physically, even after their transgression of the commandment. The FACT they’re not with us today, and the FACT that God the Son had to come into this world to redeem Adam’s posterity from the eternal consequences of sin, and the FACT that He Himself is another Adam (the “Last Adam”), all disprove your theology. Supernatural life…the life essence of God Himself, is indeed what they possessed. Their sin is what caused them to loose it. The harmoneous balance between soul, body and spirit was shattered at the fall. That’s why it’s so easy to fall into sin. There’s no harmonny there. It was God’s life within man that kept the balance right. That’s why they were naked and had no shame. What is up with you? Adam and Eve were created innocent, but they were not created righteous or with “eternal life” in them.So you are saying that Adam and Eve, had they not sinned, would have died anyway? Is that what I’m hearing? You’re bugging!!!

The rest of your statement has already been dealt with earlier, so I won’t bring it up. Once again…I really think what you guys are trying to do here is funny.

 

[bene7]

hurst:

Your version of the Gospel is not supported by scripture. Or do you say that Eph 2:8-9 overrides Gal 6:7-10? For the above clearly shows that we must do good works by the Spirit in order to reap the reward of life everlasting in that same spirit. We must not fail to do good, so that in due time we won’t fail to reap.

Eph. 2:8-9 instructs us on how we are saved. Gal. 6:7-10 is exhortative on how we should live. Your reply is a perfect example of my response to Pryority on how we are not to elevate Christian living above the Gospel message itself:

Bene7:

This is what is called GRACE: unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor. God’s written Word is VERY explicit that sinners are to be saved by grace through faith alone (Eph. 2:8-9). It is Satan’s device to complicate this simple fact with the lesser issues of Christian living. The issues of Christian living are certainly important, but they must not be elevated to the danger of obscuring, replacing, even destroying, the pure Gospel message of God’s infinite GRACE toward the fallen sons of Adam through the Person and work of His own “only begotten Son.”

We reap eternal life with the reward,

Yet the Apostle Paul says eternal life is a gift:“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom. 6:23).This too is didactic, not simply exhortative. Now let’s see, Paul tells us that salvation is “gift” of God in Eph. 2:8; eternal life is a “gift” in Rom. 6:23; and in Rom. 5:17 he states the same for righteousness:"For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ."I guess we do have different Gospels.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[ncgolf]

bene7:

I guess we do have different Gospels.

My bible has 4 Gospels … Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The writings from Paul are referred to as Letters. Do you refer to the Letters of Paul and Peter as Gospels??

 

[bene7]

ncgolf:

Grace though an umerited, undeserving gift from God has a second component. It must be freely received. God will never force His grace on you .

Grace is not a “gift from God,” it is the means by which He gifts the true believer with salvation, eternal life, and righteousness. See my post to Hurst, #226.

As for free choice, you have the choice to *believe * in what God has freely done for you through His Son, or you may refuse to believe it. The former results in the free gifts of salvation, eternal life and righteousness. As for the latter, well, you’re on your own with your self-imposed law.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[ncgolf]

bene7:

Grace is not a “gift from God,” it is the means by which He gifts the true believer with salvation, eternal life, and righteousness. See my post to Hurst, #226.

As for free choice, you have the choice to *believe * in what God has freely done for you through His Son, or you may refuse to believe it. The former results in the free gifts of salvation, eternal life and righteousness. As for the latter, well, you’re on your own with your self-imposed law.

Blessings,
Bene

Ha you sound like a works gospel. He rewards (gifts) based on an action (belief). I thought that is what you are trying to criticize Catholics for. You did something to merit eternal life. How did a true believer get that way without God’s grace. You are going in circles … your post is saying faith is reached without God’s grace? Am I reading this right.

How does one know they are a true believer?? Where is the scripture for one to know that?

 

[Pryority7]

]

I guess we do have different Gospels.

Hmmm…facinating…I’m excited to hear from you where your Gospel comes from man…My Gospel comes from Christ and His Church…I just wanted to make that clear.

 

[bene7]

ncgolf:

My bible has 4 Gospels … Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The writings from Paul are referred to as Letters. Do you refer to the Letters of Paul and Peter as Gospels??

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are called “Gospels,” but they are written accounts of Christ’s life here on earth and go only as far as His death on the cross and His bodily resurrection.

However, the “Gospel” of John is different than the synoptic Gospels because it contains many sayings of Christ in anticipation of the cross with its message of eternal life through faith in Him (like John 3:14-18). Many scholars consider it the Genesis of the N.T.

Paul’s letters (Epistles) theologically explain divine salvation wrought by the cross of Christ. The cross of Christ cannot be understood apart from Epistles, especially Paul’s. It’s the Epistes that explain the cross and salvation by grace through faith alone - which is the “Gospel” (good news) message taken to the the Jews first and then to the Gentiles by His Apostles.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[Church_Militant]

bene7:

Paul’s letters (Epistles) theologically explain divine salvation wrought by the cross of Christ. The cross of Christ cannot be understood apart from Epistles, especially Paul’s. **It’s the Epistes that explain the cross and salvation by grace through faith alone **- which is the “Gospel” (good news) message taken to the the Jews first and then to the Gentiles by His Apostles.

Blessings,
Bene

What passage of the New Testament uses the words “faith alone”?
Can you tell me?

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Ok… big breath…

Sandusky and Bene7, How do you know that your salvation is complete. Prove that the evil one hasn’t led you to believe that though deceit. Remember your faith alone is not proof since you are possibly being deceived. I’m not saying you are being decieved, just “what if.”

Before you ask, the Catholic faith is lead by the Holy Spirit and I can point to that scripture (your sole authority)… and the gate of hell shall not prevail agianst it… like it or not.

Are there any sins that separate us from God? I’m curious to hear what you think they are.

Of the three virtues listed by Jesus required of the faithful. Faith, Hope, and Love. Which was the most important? How is that shown in our daily lives? Why doesn’t Jesus list “faith” as the most important as you say it is? Why is “hope” listed if salvation is guaranteed according to you through faith alone.

When in history did scripture become the sole authority of faith? A date. What in the bible says that it (the bible) is the sole authority? Is it in the bible or is it implied in you opinion? Was the oral tradition of God’s chosen people done away with after Jesus’s death. Or was it still important? Remember oral tradition made up a large part of the Jewish faith. Was the oral tradition the “made up” part of the Jewish faith?

I hope I’m not wasting your time…

 

[sandusky]

ncgolf:

My bible has 4 Gospels … Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The writings from Paul are referred to as Letters. Do you refer to the Letters of Paul and Peter as Gospels??

There are four Gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.

There is the message of the good news (Gospel) of Christ dying for, and paying the penalty in full for the sins of fallen man:

Acts 8:25
25 So, when they had solemnly testified and spoken the word of the Lord, they started back to Jerusalem, and were preaching the gospel to many villages of the Samaritans.

That Gospel is also called the Gospel of God:

Romans 1:1
1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,

Paul also refers to it as the Gospel he received from the Lord, or “my Gospel.”

Romans 2:16
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Paul says we will be judged by his Gospel. Maybe you should listen to him more closely.

Romans 16:25
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,

Paul says that one is able to be established according to his Gospel. Maybe you should listen to him more closely.

2 Timothy 2:8
8 Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel,

ncgolf:

Ha you sound like a works gospel. He rewards (gifts) based on an action (belief). I thought that is what you are trying to criticize Catholics for. You did something to merit eternal life. How did a true believer get that way without God’s grace. You are going in circles … your post is saying faith is reached without God’s grace? Am I reading this right.

Ha! You need to read more carefully.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that [grace and faith] [are] not of yourselves, it [grace and faith] is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Do you see that? With respect to grace, salvation, and faith, they are all gifts of God; not even your faith is your own, but a gift of God. Why? So that you cannot boast in your salvation, nay, so that you cannot boast in anything! (Even your religious affiliation).

Romans 12:3
3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Oops! There it is again. God allots faith to whom He will.

I know that those of you who believe in libertarian free-will are horrified by those statements, but they are what God says.

Therefore, belief/faith (they are the same word in the Greek) is not a work of man, but a work of God.

 

[Pryority7]

In New York yesterday I saw in the news that a latino pastor of what I believe is a pentecostal church has been charged with incest and sexual assault against four members of his family, a couple of them started as young as 12!
This guys has been a pastor for 8 years, spreading the Gospel and preaching the word of God…
Tell us, Bene and Sandusky, is this guy going to heaven in spite of this sin? Even if he repented, he might still be served some jail time (temporal punishment)…the after effects of one’s individual sins still effect the believer, even if the sin is forgiven. Apparently, The once and for all sacrifice of the cross did not prevent this man from doing what he did. Your “once saved, always saved” gospel is not holding water even in this situation.
I read this cool article by Patrick Madrid on this site:
www.envoymagazine.com/PlanetEnvoy/Special-PurgatoryEmergencyRooom1.htm
Read it.

 

[sandusky]

I have posted this on this thread once before, but I do so again.

This is for you Church Militant.

As far as James teaching in James 2, again, IMHO, you misunderstand. I include a post I made from another thread, exegeting James 2:

What does James mean by his statement: “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (2:24)? It has always been urged by Roman Catholic apologists (see Council of Trent, Sixth Session, Chapters VII, X) that James 2:14-26 is a corrective to the Protestant (not the Pauline) “heresy” that justification is through faith alone completely apart from works, for James expressly declares: “You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone [ex ergon dikaioutai anthropos kai ouk ek pisteos monon]” (2:24). But an exacting exegetical analysis of James’ teaching will disclose that in James’ teaching the accent falls upon the probative character of good works, whereas in the Pauline polemic the accent falls without question upon the judicially constitutive and declarative character of justification. Paul and James clearly mean something different by their use of the words “justified,” ‘faith,” and “works,” and they turn to different places in Genesis and thus to different events in Abraham’s life to support their respective applications of Gen 15:6. This much should be denied by no one.

Whereas Paul intends by “justified” the actual act on God’s part whereby He pardons and imputes righteousness to the ungodly, James intends by “justified” the verdict which God declares when the actually (previously) justified man has demonstrated his actual righteous state by obedience and good works.

Whereas Paul intends by “faith” trustful repose in the merits of Christ alone for pardon and righteousness, James is addressing those whose “faith” was tending toward, if it had not already become, a cold, orthodox intellectualism in which bare assent is given to such propositions as “God is one”—which even the demons confess with seemingly greater appreciation, for they tremble—but which is devoid of any exhibition of love for the brethren.

Whereas Paul, when he repudiates “works,” intends by “works” “the works of the law,” that is, any and every work of whatever kind done for the sake of acquiring merit, James intends by “works” acts of kindness toward those in need performed as the fruit and evidence of a true and vital faith and the actual justified state. (2:14-17).

Whereas Paul is concerned with the question, how may a man achieve right standing before God, and turns to Gen 15:6 to find his answer, James is concerned with the question, how is a man to demonstrate that he has true faith and is therefore actually justified before God turns to Gen 22:9-10, as the probative “fulfillment” of Gen 15:6 (see Gen 22:12), to find his answer (2:21). Note his deixon, “show me”, and deixo, “I will show you in 2:18; his blepeis, “you see” in 2:22 and his horate, “you see” at the beginning of 2:24—the very verse under discussion: “You see that a man is justified by [his] works, and not by [his said] faith (cf v14) alone.”

And that faith is not alone, it will be “proved” by works, but those works cannot save.

James deals with works in a purely probative manner with respect to faith.

If you deny that, then you must insist that scripture, in the writings of Paul and James, contradicts itself with respect to justification.

 

[sandusky]

Pryority7:

In New York yesterday I saw in the news that a latino pastor of what I believe is a pentecostal church has been charged with incest and sexual assault against four members of his family, a couple of them started as young as 12!

That’s terrible. I was watching the news this morning and one of your child molesting, homosexual…

You know, P7, maybe we should stay away from the messes that self proclaimed men of God get themselves into and stick to the subject at hand.

If you would like to rephrase your question about eternal security, I’ll consider giving it a reasoned response.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Sandusky,

Is everyone with faith in Christ, tries to follow the example of Christ to the best of their human ability and believes in the teachings of the bible to be inspired by God, saved?
Yes or No?

Are the exceptions according to your religion?

 

[Pryority7]

]That’s terrible. I was watching the news this morning and one of your child molesting, homosexual…

What are you saying here? Is this a typo error because if not I do not appreciate the sick humor…

You know, P7, maybe we should stay away from the messes that self proclaimed men of God get themselves into and stick to the subject at hand.

This is a perfect example of your claim that people can do whatever they want so as long as they’re saved, right? If this pastor does not repent, is he still saved?

I

f you would like to rephrase your question about eternal security, I’ll consider giving it a reasoned response.

This is not about eternal security. This is about purgatory, which has nothing to do with eternal security and salvation, but has to do with what God does with the one who is one his or her way to Heaven with His precious Blood. It’s happening now, and it will happen then. All of it is attributed to Him.