Purgatory and 1 Corinthians 15:52

[bene7]

hurst:

Here is the crux of the problem. If “saved” is an accomplished fact, then just what exactly is “saved”? What does it mean to be “saved”? In that context, it certainly cannot mean being in heaven, nor even being sinless.

You’re right. Yet Paul does say to men on earth, "For by grace you have been saved through faith…" And Jesus does say to men, on earth, that through faith in Him they “have passed out of death into life.”

Your question actually reveals the crux of your problem (and that of Catholicism) in thinking that saved means one’s actual, physical entrance into heaven, or that one cannot know he is saved until he has actually entered into heaven (by way of purgatory for most).

But that’s according to Rome, not Biblical revelation. According to Scripture men are actually saved (forgiven of all sins, justified and reconciled to God) this side of glory - the whole reason for preaching Christ and the cross throughout these generations. The fact they ARE fully saved through personal faith in the Person and work of Jesus Christ guarantees their future, immediate entrance into the presence of Christ.“For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens…prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge (i.e., down payment)…Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- for we walk by faith, not by sight-- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore also we have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him” (2 Cor. 5:1-9)."It is in this life that one is saved (not “being saved”) in “preparation” for the eternal glories yet to come. And God has given every true believer (the saved), this side of glory, the Holy Spirit as a pledge, a down payment, an earnest for that which is yet to come, that which is guaranteed for those who, in this life, have put their faith in what God has proclaimed (through the message of the cross) He has accomplished on behalf of the believer through the substitutionary death and subsequent resurrection of His beloved Son.

Paul calls heaven “home” for all the saved, this side of glory. And the saved, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, desire to be pleasing to the Lord who saved them, whether presently on earth (walking by faith) or “at home” in His physical presence. Notice, Paul speaks of no, future, intermediate state. A judgment of works, yes, but that judgment is not a “state” prior to heaven itself.

Continued above…

 

[bene7]

]
Another place in scripture says: Matthew 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

Yes, and your erroneous interpretation of this verse is based on your unbelief in what God has said concerning His Son and salvation in the Epistles. Since Matt. 24:13 is in the context of events that take place at the end of the age (24:3), just prior to Christ’s second Advent, and addressed to Jews living in Israel at that time, then based on your interpretation, we must conclude that only those Jews living at that time (the end of the age) and persevere through those catastrophic events, “will be saved.” Hence, there is no salvation for any of us (Jew or Gentile) who live prior to that time (for how could we possibly “persevere” through those events unless we’re living at the time of those events - in Israel). So according to your interpretation, and the context from which you draw your doctrine of “salvation through perseverance,” salvation is reserved only for a few (in respect to the millions who lived prior those “end of the age” events), and said salvation is not at all “by grace through faith” (Paul lied), but only for those Jews who perseve until “the end of the age.”

Paul says in Rom. 5:1-2:"Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."He states that believers have been justified, and because of that justification we “have” peace with God. Justification and peace being “through our Lord Jesus Christ.” The One through whom we have our “introduction,” by faith, into this GRACE in which we STAND. The word “introduction” (or, "access), is prosagoge and means “freedom to enter through the assistance or favor of another.”

The believer is assisted into the state of divine grace (favor) in which he now “stands” not by “persevering” until the end of the age, or by attaining sinlessness, or suffering for his own cleansing, but by Christ Himself who through the cross justified him and reconciled him to God (vss. 9-11). And for this reason the believer, this side of glory, can exult in tribulations that come his way during his life, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character, and proven character, hope - which does not disappoint because the love of God has been poured out in the believer’s heart through the Holy Spirit who was given to him as a “pledge,” a “down payment,” an “earnest,” a “guarantee” of the eternal realities that are his in Christ, and are yet to come. (Rom. 5:3-5; cf. Rom. 8:18; 1Pet. 1:11).

The extra-biblical doctrine of purgatory seems to resonate only with those who refuse to believe what Scripture reveals concerning Christ and what He has already done, perfectly and completely, on behalf of the believer. And that, of course, would make perfect sense. But to the one who does believe God’s word concerning His Son and salvation, such a concept rings meaningless, void of all reason, based on Biblical revelation and the Spirit who dwells in him.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[Pryority7]

Bene, why don’t you rip apart every single scripture reading hurst has thrown at you regarding works and salvation? I would LOOOOOVVVVEEEE to see what your response is…and do me a favor…don’t quote the same scriptures you’ve been using for the last three pages…be a little creative here and use your noggin…
As far as hurst said just now…you have a solid AMEN from me.

 

[hurst]

bene7:

Your question actually reveals the crux of your problem (and that of Catholicism) in thinking that saved means one’s actual, physical entrance into heaven,

As I showed earlier, scripture sometimes uses “saved” to mean different things. Catholics do not focus on whether or not they are “saved” for that very reason. Yet, in some cases of scripture, “saved” refers to what happens after one perseveres to the end in holding the faith.

bene7:

or that one cannot know he is saved until he has actually entered into heaven (by way of purgatory for most).

Well, if you think Catholics believe “saved” means entrance into heaven, then it would make sense that one is not “saved” until they actually enter it, don’t you agree?

But again, Catholics recognize “saved” to mean different things depending on context. In one sense, we are saved once we repent, believe the Gospel, and willingly seek to obey what God requires of us.

But even then, as Catholics, we don’t know that we are in God’s grace unless God divinely reveals it to us. But we can know by our own fruits whether we be a good tree.

bene7:

But that’s according to Rome, not Biblical revelation.

Actually, it is perfectly scriptural to adopt the attitude that we should do good works to ensure our calling and election (2 Peter 1:10).

bene7:

According to Scripture men are actually saved (forgiven of all sins, justified and reconciled to God) this side of glory - the whole reason for preaching Christ and the cross throughout these generations.

There is no disagreement that we are justified, reconciled, and forgiven of all old sins (2 Peter 1:9) this side of glory. But that is only one aspect of being saved.

(As for new sins committed after baptism and faith, Christ’s one sacrifice provides for those insofar as we do penance and return to works of charity - Apoc 2:5)

bene7:

The fact they ARE fully saved

Ah, now here is where you go wrong. To be “fully” saved would have to incorporate all aspects of being saved as indicated by numerous scripture passages. Thus, it will have to include the part that happens after we persevere to the end (Matt 10:22, Matt 24:13, Mk 13:13, 1 Cor 5:5). But since that has not happened yet, you cannot say “fully saved” as if it is already accomplished. It is simple logic, really. But since you have a “tradition” that pushes this notion of being “fully saved”, you resist this logic, even though it is in the Bible itself. Thus, you open yourself to the charge of having contempt for scripture.

bene7:

through personal faith in the Person and work of Jesus Christ guarantees their future,

You say being “fully saved” guarantees their future, but I showed we are not “fully saved” until we are in heaven, so this statement would be a tautology. And since it makes no sense that we are “fully saved” before reaching glory, then it follows that we are not in a guaranteed state of being “saved”.

Having said this, though, the Church does teach that God has in fact predetermined certain men to eternal blessedness. (Ott p.242).

bene7:

immediate entrance into the presence of Christ."For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens…prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge

(i.e., down payment)…Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- for we walk by faith, not by sight-- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore also we have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him" (2 Cor. 5:1-9)."

None of this contradicts the Catholic understanding. Something you have to recognize here is that the “knowing” he is talking about is by faith. We know by faith. We see by faith. But that is precisely why we must persevere in faith! If we lose our faith, then we have lost our vision and access. By faith, we know how we ought to live to be pleasing to God. If we lose our faith, we lose the motivation and understanding for living for God, and will soon fall into the works of the flesh, by which we will be condemned.

The new question for you to face is this: why do you think you are guaranteed salvation when scripture itself says it is possible to fall away from the faith? (Lk 8:13, Heb 6:4-8, Acts 1:25, Gal 5:3-4, James 5:19-20). Or do you think it is impossible for you to lose your faith in the love of God?

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

It is in this life that one is saved (not “being saved”) in “preparation” for the eternal glories yet to come.

One is saved right away in the sense that they are reconciled and justified by their act of faith. But that is not the fullness of being saved.

Or what do you make of this passage:

Romans 5:9 Christ died for us; much more therefore, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from wrath through him.

He says clearly that he looks forward to being saved from wrath, even after acknowledging already being justified now. I brought this up before.

The verse after it is similar:

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son; much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

Clearly he looks forward to us being saved by His life after being reconciled by His death.

And one is fully saved only after entering into glory.

So to be saved “in preparation” for something shows that you are just using the term “saved” for “being saved”. Actually, since you claim you can’t lose it, your term “saved” is more like the equivalent to “guaranteed to obtain the glory of heaven”. And if this were all you said, for yourself, then it might be true, since God does reveal to some people whether they will persevere to the end. But you don’t.

Your claim that scripture teaches this as a general doctrine for all believers is plainly false. For if it were true, then we should find that concept in every single passage discussing salvation, or at least we should not find anything to refute it, such as exhortations to continue, or lamentations about some falling away, or whether one acted in vain. But in fact we find scripture replete with the notion that one must persevere, and that not all have. Yet, it is also filled with encouraging words and gratitude for those who are showing themselves to be steadfast, while correcting those who are straying. Is that not what a shepherd does?

But if you believe all is guaranteed, then how do you respond to such passages that give the impression that the faithful are not guaranteed to reach the goal?

bene7:

And God has given every true believer (the saved), this side of glory, the Holy Spirit as a pledge, a down payment, an earnest for that which is yet to come,

Generically speaking, this is correct. But the Holy Spirit is given in different ways at different times.

bene7:

that which is guaranteed for those who, in this life, have put their faith

But if one loses the Holy Spirit, that guarantee is gone. Thus, it is no guarantee at all.

Also, by faith one can perform miracles, yet be cast out in the end (Matt 7:22-23). How is having faith at one point in life a guarantee for being saved? A pledge can be rejected after being received.

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

in what God has proclaimed (through the message of the cross) He has accomplished on behalf of the believer through the substitutionary death and subsequent resurrection of His beloved Son.

This is also not accurate. You refer to the “message of the cross” as if it were that Christ paid a penalty of death for us and rose again to prove it was paid. That is not the Gospel. The Gospel is that God became man, fulfilling the scriptures by his life, death, and resurrection. That is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, elaborated in the first four books of the NT. If you believe God actually came into the world and did these things, then you have become acceptable to God. Then there is the gospel of the Kingdom of God, which Christ preached. It is folly to think that one can go on to live without actually obeying what God’s Son taught. Just as you ignore Christ’s life by your version of the Gospel, so you ignore the need for us to imitate His life by doing good works to the glory of the Father.

Christ preached that the time had come for all scripture to be fulfilled. He is the promised Prophet, King, Savior, and Son of God. That is the good news we are called to believe. He also taught the effect His preaching would have on the world, comparing the Kingdom to seed being planted in the earth and growing and a harvest being made. He made it very clear that the fruits of the harvest would be judged and separated. Those who produce no fruit will suffer the same fate as if they had not believed the Gospel. But you pervert this whole thing in the name of Paul so that you think and teach that all should believe everything has been done for us already. Folly! The truth we should believe is the good news that God became man and calls us to His Kingdom and to live as He taught, bearing fruit to the glory of God the Father. The message Paul makes of the cross is just another case for proving to us that God reconciled Himself to us at a great price, and loves us greatly, proving His divinity by the miracle of the resurrection. With such a great hope, then, let us go and produce much fruit. But sadly, you twist this to mean we don’t have to ever worry about the “works” of producing fruit. It is as if you were using the Gospel to excuse yourself from justice without needing to do anything about it except believe that you don’t have to do anything about it. Please open your eyes and see the decpetion for what it is. At least don’t base it on scripture anymore!

The Protestant belief that salvation is based on believing Christ paid for our penalty is a dangerous lie. It contradicts the revealed truth that God will judge our works, and makes us neglect doing the good works that God saved us for in the first place! God’s purpose is to show forth His glory, which we are to do by good works, but Protestant theology teaches that God ignores our works on account of the works of Christ. This explains not only their rejection of purgatory, but also their refusal to venerate Mary or the saints. They discount the value of the free will of the creature. It is this free will that gives us any value in God’s eyes, for He wants us to desire Him.

Christ is a Prophet and teacher. We have to follow His teaching and imitate His example. The message of the cross matches His teaching that we must die to ourselves and forgive injuries from our heart. We must deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow Him. He is not going to take us with Him without our cooperation.

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

Paul calls heaven “home” for all the saved, this side of glory. And the saved, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, desire to be pleasing to the Lord who saved them, whether presently on earth (walking by faith) or “at home” in His physical presence.

No dispute here.

bene7:

Notice, Paul speaks of no, future, intermediate state. A judgment of works, yes, but that judgment is not a “state” prior to heaven itself.

Do you deny there can be a state prior to heaven? I have shown that there was a place for the just, such as the patriarchs, called Abraham’s Bosom. There was also a place for the incredulous from the time of Noah who were kept in a “prison” until Christ preached to them. Neither of those places were heaven or hell, but rather a holding place until heaven was opened.

You might now ask whether these holding places are still needed now that heaven is open, but it is clear that it is not without precedent to have such a temporary state.

And I say it is reasonable to believe these holding places are going to be used, at least until the Day of Resurrection. For people are now dying and have not yet been resurrected. It follows that they are in a place of holding. Furthermore, since Paul says he prefers to be with Christ, he shows that we can be “home” even before the Resurrection. Thus, it must follow that we are given a particular judgment when we die. Now since repayment of farthings (Matt 5:26) or being saved through fire (1 Cor 3:15) or being given stripes (Lk 12:47) is something that must happen prior to entrance into heaven, it follows that it must occur in a temporary holding place of some kind. And Catholics call this place Purgatory.

hurst

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

sandusky:

God’s word says we are saved by grace through faith

Just a correction to your assertion here, we are saved by grace through faith working in love. Catholics can and do agree with the Calvinist doctrine of sola fide, but not the Lutheran formula which you seem to be fond of. When Protestants themselves cannot agree with sola fide is, why should Catholics say we agree until all the various Protestant denominations out there can work the kinks of sola fide through?

 

[hurst]

bene7:

hurst:

Another place in scripture says: Matthew 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

Yes, and your erroneous interpretation of this verse is based on your unbelief in what God has said concerning His Son and salvation in the Epistles. Since Matt. 24:13 is in the context of events that take place at the end of the age (24:3), just prior to Christ’s second Advent, and addressed to Jews living in Israel at that time, then based on your interpretation, we must conclude that only those Jews living at that time (the end of the age) and persevere through those catastrophic events, “will be saved.” Hence, there is no salvation for any of us (Jew or Gentile) who live prior to that time (for how could we possibly “persevere” through those events unless we’re living at the time of those events - in Israel). So according to your interpretation, and the context from which you draw your doctrine of “salvation through perseverance,” salvation is reserved only for a few (in respect to the millions who lived prior those “end of the age” events), and said salvation is not at all “by grace through faith” (Paul lied), but only for those Jews who perseve until “the end of the age.”

Thank you for expressing yourself well.

However, that is not how I interpreted it. We do not need to live in those times and persevere in those times in order to be saved. But those who do live in those times will have to persevere.

I was only showing an instance where perseverance was required. And if perseverance is required for them, then how could they have been “fully saved” beforehand?

Thus, it shows that one is not fully saved by becoming justified and reconciled to God. We must remain saved until the last moment by continuing to believe and thus abide in that reconciliation.

bene7:

Paul says in Rom. 5:1-2:“Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.”

He states that believers have been justified, and because of that justification we “have” peace with God. Justification and peace being “through our Lord Jesus Christ.” The One through whom we have our “introduction,” by faith, into this GRACE in which we STAND. The word “introduction” (or, "access), is prosagoge and means “freedom to enter through the assistance or favor of another.”

I do not dispute that they have grace, and stand in it, and are justified and reconciled to God.

What I dispute is the notion that it is impossible to fall from grace (Gal 5:4), fall away from faith (Lk 8:13), and be drawn back into the world (Matt 13:22, Mk 4:19).

And we avoid falling by doing good works and using the grace and faith we have found. (2 Peter 1:10)

bene7:

The believer is assisted into the state of divine grace (favor) in which he now “stands” not by “persevering” until the end of the age, or by attaining sinlessness, or suffering for his own cleansing, but by Christ Himself who through the cross justified him and reconciled him to God (vss. 9-11).

Again, we must persevere in the faith by which we were reconciled and justified. We must persevere until we die.

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

And for this reason the believer, this side of glory, can exult in tribulations that come his way during his life, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character, and proven character, hope - which does not disappoint because the love of God has been poured out in the believer’s heart through the Holy Spirit who was given to him as a “pledge,” a “down payment,” an “earnest,” a “guarantee” of the eternal realities that are his in Christ, and are yet to come. (Rom. 5:3-5; cf. Rom. 8:18; 1Pet. 1:11).

Ok

bene7:

The extra-biblical doctrine of purgatory seems to resonate only with those who refuse to believe what Scripture reveals concerning Christ and what He has already done, perfectly and completely, on behalf of the believer. And that, of course, would make perfect sense. But to the one who does believe God’s word concerning His Son and salvation, such a concept rings meaningless, void of all reason, based on Biblical revelation and the Spirit who dwells in him.

Purgatory resonates with those who recognize that our our works will be judged (Matt 16:27), and that we will have to atone via fire (1 Cor 3:15) or stripes (Lk 12:47) or prison (Matt 5:25-26) for not doing what we were given to do, in order to avoid being judged with the world (1 Cor 31-32).

The fact is, one who does good is more likely to believe.

John 3:21 But he that doth truth, cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, because they are done in God.

And the one who believes will do God’s works

John 14:12 Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake. Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do.

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

When does a “gift” ever become a “reward?” That would be a contradiction. Based on Eph. 2:8-9 God does not consider faith as work.“For by grace (the means) you have been saved (a stated, accomplished fact) through faith…not as a result of works…”

The gift becomes a reward when we take the gift of grace and obtain the reward of glory for the good works we did by the grace we received. The grace we received is not the glory we look for.

Our works will be tested in the day of judgment (1 Cor 3:13). Only those done in grace will pass (1 Cor 3:14). Works done poorly will be burned up (1 Cor 3:15). Those who neglected to do good works will be cast out, to share the lot of unbelievers (Lk 12:46). By the free gift of grace we are called to do good works for the glory of God, and we will be rewarded with glory if we do well, or suffer loss if we don’t. And if we neglect good works altogether, doing evil works, we will share the lot of unbelievers in eternal punishment.

I hope it is clear by now that the doctrine of Protestants generally confuses unmerited grace with merited glory.

hurst

 

[Mickey]

hurst:

I hope it is clear by now that the doctrine of Protestants generally confuses unmerited grace with merited glory.

Dear hurst,

I would like to thank you for such a wonderful job of presenting the Catholic understanding and how it completely adheres to proper interpretation of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. You are truly gifted and blessed. Truth always prevails!

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

Peace,
Mickey

 

[bene7]

hurst:

Thank you for expressing yourself well.

However, that is not how I interpreted it. We do not need to live in those times and persevere in those times in order to be saved. But those who do live in those times will have to persevere.

I was only showing an instance where perseverance was required. And if perseverance is required for them, then how could they have been “fully saved” beforehand?

You missed the point completely and are adding your own theology to the text.

Thus, it shows that one is not fully saved by becoming justified and reconciled to God. We must remain saved until the last moment by continuing to believe and thus abide in that reconciliation.

Matt. 24:13 says nothing about enduring in faith. Nor does it say enduring “until one’s life has ended.” It explicitly states that those who endure (physically) to the end (of the age) shall (will) be saved. It doesn’t say that the “saved” will be “saved.” Or those already reconciled and justified will be saved, or even “fully saved.” But those who endure to the end will be saved.

But Paul says to the believer"For by GRACE you HAVE BEEN saved through FAITH; and that not of yourselves (this must include self-endurace), it (salvation) is a GIFT of God; not as a RESULT of works, that no one should boast" (Eph. 2:8).

And just prior to his great salvation by grace through faith passage he states that salvation is based on God’s “rich mercy” and “love” towards us (not our self-endurance) in that while we (believers) were dead in our transgressions (sins) He (1) made us alive together with Christ (for by grace you have been saved) and raised us up with Him, and (2) seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (3) in order that in the ages to come he might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:4-7).

Paul describes here a "fully" saved believer. One once dead, but now made alive and actually raised up with Christ and seated with Him in heaven. Which puts great significance not only on the death of Christ, on behalf of the believer, but also His resurrection. Paul says that God’s motive for raising us up with Christ is in order that in the ages to come He might continue to show us His surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. That, my friend, is assurance wrought by a salvation wholly by God - to His glory.

Now your view of a believer is very different than that of Paul’s or the Holy Spirit’s who inspired his writings. And Paul’s view of salvation is diametrically opposed to that which is stated in Matt. 24:13. Yet the Holy Spirit inspired both passages to be written. I would conclude the problem lies in YOUR interpretation based on your own view of “salvation,” not the text.

I do not dispute that they have grace, and stand in it, and are justified and reconciled to God.

What you dispute (nay, dis-believe) is that a believer has been saved “by GRACE,” and that salvation is a “gift of God” (Eph. 2:8) along with his justification (Rom. 3:24).

Blessings,
Bene

 

[sandusky]

Semper Fi:

Just a correction to your assertion here, we are saved by grace through faith working in love.

I understand that to be the Catholic position, but I cannot find the verse. Where is this verse?

 

[hurst]

bene7:

Matt. 24:13 says nothing about enduring in faith.

Maybe not directly, but other scripture passages say that. How else can one persevere? Without faith?

bene7:

Nor does it say enduring “until one’s life has ended.”

Does everything need to be explicit? Is it not obvious that if one stops enduring before they die, that they have fallen away etc.?

bene7:

It explicitly states that those who endure (physically) to the end (of the age) shall (will) be saved. It doesn’t say that the “saved” will be “saved.” Or those already reconciled and justified will be saved, or even “fully saved.” But those who endure to the end will be saved.

I see now. You hold that he is talking about unsaved people enduring.

But that doesn’t make sense either. There are plenty of evil people who persevere to the bitter end in their evil. In fact, we read in Apocalypse that those who are found in opposition to Christ will be destroyed (Apoc 19:19-21), and even Christ mentioned the same thing in parables (Lk 19:27).

So who are those that endure? You say it is not those already saved. Scripture indicates it is not those who oppose Christ as King. Is it perhaps those without faith who nevertheless do good works? Or are you wrong and it really is those who are saved?

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

But Paul says to the believer"For by GRACE you HAVE BEEN saved through FAITH; and that not of yourselves (this must include self-endurace),

You imply that when I say we must endure in faith (and that is supported by scripture - 1 Cor 13:16, 2 Cor 5:7, Gal 2:20, Gal 5:5, Eph 3:17, Eph 6:16, Col 1:23, 1 Thess 1:3, 2 Thess 1:4, 1 Tim 4:1, Heb 10:38-39, James 1:3, Apoc 2:13, etc.), that I am saying we are enduring by ourselves? Even though I make it clear we are enduring in the grace of God by doing good works according to scripture? (2 Peter 1:10)

Furthermore, by enduring our trials in faith, we will reach the salvation of glory

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith (much more precious than gold which is tried by the fire) may be found unto praise and glory and honour at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 8 Whom having not seen, you love: in whom also now, though you see him not, you believe: and believing shall rejoice with joy unspeakable and glorified; 9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

I think it is rather you that have proposed an invented theology, or at least a confused one. Our salvation in the gift of grace (cause of faith) is not equivalent to our salvation in the merit of glory (end of faith). My friend, faith is the means God has given us to bring glory to God on earth and earn glory in ourselves in heaven (Lk 14:10-11, Rom 2:6-7). For it is just and proper that he who sought to glorify God on earth will be given a permanent place in eternity by which he may continue to glorify God in himself.

Apocalypse 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven, saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, who die in the Lord. From henceforth now, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; for their works follow them.

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

it (salvation) is a GIFT of God; not as a RESULT of works, that no one should boast" (Eph. 2:8).[/indent]

Be careful that you inform your understanding of that passage with the truth of other scripture passages, such as this one

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy hath regenerated us unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 Unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that can not fade, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who, by the power of God, are kept by faith unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein you shall greatly rejoice, if now you must be for a little time made sorrowful in divers temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith(much more precious than gold which is tried by the fire) may be found unto praise and glory and honour at the appearing of Jesus Christ : 8 Whom having not seen, you love: in whom also now, though you see him not, you believe: and believing shall rejoice with joy unspeakable and glorified; 9 ** Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.** 10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and diligently searched, who prophesied of the grace to come in you.

You do injustice to the scriptures to ignore this understanding of salvation and grace. We are not going to have faith anymore once we are fully saved, because it will come to an end as we take possession of glory.

1 Corinthians 13:12 We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know I part; but then I shall know even as I am known.

bene7:

And just prior to his great salvation by grace through faith passage he states that salvation is based on God’s “rich mercy” and “love” towards us (not our self-endurance)

Do you see that your interpretation contradicts Peter and other scripture?

In fact, the whole reason salvation is “through” faith, is that we exercise charity in that faith, and bring glory to God. Our good works are rewarded with glory in heaven on top of our being given eternal life (Matt 19:29). But if we neglect to give glory to God while on earth, then whether we have faith or not, we will be rejected from glory in heaven. (Apoc 16:19, Lk 12:46, etc.).

We do not deserve the gift of grace given to us, but by faith we receive it. Likewise by walking in faith we keep it. We must keep God’s commandments by doing them, living in them. The just man walks by faith. We thus give glory to God. It is not self-endurance, but gracious endurance, in patience.

Apocalypse 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints, who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Hebrews 6:12 That you become not slothful, but followers of them, who through faith and patience shall inherit the promises.

The proper interpretation will make a distinction between the salvation we receive in being reconciled and the salvation we receive in being rewarded with glory. On earth we are given the promise of the Spirit and a pledge of future glory. But we must live to the glory of God as found in good works of faith rooted in charity (Eph 3:17).

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

in that while we (believers) were dead in our transgressions (sins) He (1) made us alive together with Christ (for by grace you have been saved) and raised us up with Him, and (2) seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (3) in order that in the ages to come he might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:4-7).

This should be taken as being done and seen in faith. By faith we abide in Christ (Gal 2:20), who is seated on high (Heb 1:3).

This is indicated by (3), for it says He did so that he “might show” it in the ages to come. That means we were given this grace and raised up with Him in order to bring glory to God. But it is a hope we have

Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access through faith into this grace, wherein we stand, and glory in the hope of the glory of the sons of God.

But it says “might” because we are still free to reject it and turn away. And we will be judged.

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all be manifested before the judgement seat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he hath done, whether it be good or evil.

You may confuse the “is not judged” from John 3:18 with this. But the fact is that we are not judged when we turn to God in faith while here on earth. That is our reconciliation Christ has accomplished for us. Yet, we will be judged on the last day according to our works. Thanks be to God that we are now able to do good works in true charity on account of the mercy of God! But don’t construe this as self-endurance, or works whereby we deserve heaven - I am not saying that. These works are done by the help of God, and for God, and in gratitude to God. It is in doing this that we deserve to be given the glory of God in heaven that we might rejoice with Him in our works (Apoc 14:13) to glorify Him.

Matthew 25:21 His lord said to him: Well done, good and faithful servant, because thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will place thee over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Friend, this is the true Gospel. I entreat you to depart from the error of Protestant theology, which doesn’t even understand the Gospel. Yet, do not follow the slothful Catholics who do not obey the teaching of their own Faith. Join the true Church and become an Apostle for correcting the wayward!

bene7:

Paul describes here a "fully" saved believer.

Do not be deceived. Do not follow the make-believe held by Protestant theologies. Your interpretation is not even supportable by scripture, because as I have shown, the term “saved” is used in other contexts to mean something obtained after perseverance.

Anything done in faith is not full salvation itself, because full salvation is the end of faith.

bene7:

One once dead, but now made alive and actually raised up with Christ and seated with Him in heaven.

By faith.

2 Corinthians 1:21 Now he that confirmeth us with you in Christ, and that hath anointed us, is God: 22 Who also hath sealed us, and given the pledge of the Spirit in our hearts. 23 But I call God to witness upon my soul, that to spare you, I came not any more to Corinth: not because we exercise dominion over your faith: but we are helpers of your joy: for in faith you stand.

In which faith we must persevere in good works of charity.

1 Corinthians 13:2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Which if we do not do, we will lose our place (Lk 12:46), or at least suffer loss (1 Cor 3:15) and have to endure purgatory.

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

Which puts great significance not only on the death of Christ, on behalf of the believer, but also His resurrection. Paul says that God’s motive for raising us up with Christ is in order that in the ages to come He might continue to show us His surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. That, my friend, is assurance wrought by a salvation wholly by God - to His glory.

Your thinking is contrary to the very gospel of the Kingdom, whereby we are called to be doing good works to glorify God. Jesus taught us to pray “Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done, on earth, as it is in heaven” (Matt 6:10).

You seem to think God is collecting a bunch of people on earth who believe they are saved by the work of God in such a manner that the only thing to do is spread the word to everyone else so they too may believe, as if no one is supposed to do anything except believe all is done already by Christ. And you think God is glorified by this? Is it not a fig tree full of leaves but no fruit? But Christ did not have that in mind when He taught:

Luke 12:49 I am come to cast fire on the earth; and what will I, but that it be kindled?

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 14:12 Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake. Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do.

Apocalypse 5:10 And hast made us to our God a kingdom and priests, and we shall reign on the earth.

bene7:

Now your view of a believer is very different than that of Paul’s or the Holy Spirit’s who inspired his writings. And Paul’s view of salvation is diametrically opposed to that which is stated in Matt. 24:13. Yet the Holy Spirit inspired both passages to be written. I would conclude the problem lies in YOUR interpretation based on your own view of “salvation,” not the text.What you dispute (nay, dis-believe) is that a believer has been saved “by GRACE,” and that salvation is a “gift of God” (Eph. 2:8) along with his justification (Rom. 3:24).

I will give you credit for at least being willing to try to reconcile those two passages, even though your conclusion is different. Yet you still have to answer the problem of how an unbeliever would be able to persevere and be saved without faith or good works when scripture says those are the ones who will be destroyed (Apoc 19:19-21, Lk 19:27).

Also, there are other passages that need to be reconciled. Here is another set about the need to remain standing:

1 Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore he that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall.

Romans 11:20 Well: because of unbelief they were broken off. But thou standest by faith: be not highminded, but fear. 21 For if God hath not spared the natural branches, fear lest perhaps he also spare not thee. 22 See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

Luke 21:36 Watch ye, therefore, praying at all times, that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are to come, and to stand before the Son of man.

Mark 4:17 And they have no root in themselves, but are only for a time: and then when tribulation and persecution ariseth for the word they are presently scandalized.

1 Corinthians 16:13 Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, do manfully, and be strengthened.

Here we see that one might fall and be cut off, but that if one return to belief, can be grafted in again. Even though Romans 11 is talking about the Jews vs. the Gentiles, it does not change the fact that a believer can fall away. We must abide carefully. A believer must remain a believer “through many tribulations” in order to enter the Kingdom.

Acts 14:21 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith: and that through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God.

Again, our patience will glorify God and be rewarded in heaven. Those who fall short will either be lost or be saved while suffering loss (1 Cor 3:15).

hurst

 

[hurst]

sandusky:

Originally Posted by Semper Fi
Just a correction to your assertion here, we are saved by grace through faith working in love.

I understand that to be the Catholic position, but I cannot find the verse. Where is this verse?

That is not in any single verse as such. His point is probably that love is required for our faith to be of any account.

John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because you have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision: but faith that worketh by charity.

Ephesians 3:17 That Christ may dwell by faith in your hearts; that being rooted and founded in charity …

Ephesians 6:23 Peace be to the brethren and charity with faith, from God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1:3 We are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you towards each other, aboundeth

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity, from a pure heart, and a good conscience, and an unfeigned faith.

1 Corinthians 13:2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1 Cor 16:14 Let all your things be done in charity.

It is these works of charity that are the good works we must do to bring glory to God here on earth. One can only do so by grace and in faith in God’s good Will towards us in Christ, for if we think God is going to condemn us, why bother doing things for Him?

But if we serve Him on earth, He will give us a place in heaven to continue to serve Him in glory (Matt 25:21). If we don’t serve Him, then we fall away from the faith that is in His love, and will suffer reproach (Lk 12:46).

hurst