Purgatory and 1 Corinthians 15:52

[bene7]

hurst:

None of this contradicts the Catholic understanding. Something you have to recognize here is that the “knowing” he is talking about is by faith. We know by faith. We see by faith. But that is precisely why we must persevere in faith! If we lose our faith, then we have lost our vision and access.

No, what you’re saying is all twisted theology and not based on written revelation. What we know is based on divine revelation. And divine revelation says our access into this grace in which we stand is Jesus Christ himself. Read Rom. 5:1-2 again. “Faith” is IN the Lord Jesus Christ, and through Him we stand in divine grace…

Personal faith is exercised in something or someone. In respect to salvation it’s Someone. Men are saved and access God’s grace through Christ when they believe what God has done on their behalf through Him. It is God himself who saves us - not our faith or our works:"He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit"Now you nod at this as if you’re in agreement, but ultimately you preach a “gospel” of self-works. Have you not said yourself that apart from works a man cannot be saved? But according to Paul, works and grace cannot co-exist in respect to getting saved, or for that matter, even maintaining salvation:“But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace” (Rom. 11:6)

Please don’t quote James to me. James is talking in the context of a false faith.

Scripture is emphatic about works not being a part of the salvation process, but certainly should be a part of the lives of those who ARE saved (Eph. 2:10). As Paul states above, once you theologically introduce works into the process of salvation then grace is no longer grace.

The new question for you to face is this: why do you think you are guaranteed salvation when scripture itself says it is possible to fall away from the faith? Lk. 8:13; Heb. 6:4-8; Acts 1:25; Gal. 5:3-4; James 5:19-20).

Luke 8:13: Actually, Jesus makes reference to salvation only in Lk. 8:12.

Heb. 6:4-6: Compare the description in this passage to that of true believers in other passages. The true believer has not simply been enlightened, but is light (Eph. 5:8); he has not simply “tasted” of the heavenly gift, he actually HAS eternal life (Jn. 5:24); he is not simply a “partaker” of the Holy Spirit, he is born of the Spirit, baptized and sealed by Him; he has not simply tasted of the good word of God, he has believed the word concerning Christ unto salvation; he hasn’t simply tasted the power of the age to come, he has experienced divine, transforming power within.

Heb. 6:4-6 was a warning to Jews who, though fully exposed to the truth of Christ, never fully believed. They “walked the fence,” so to speak. The danger was that once they completely defected it would be impossible to renew them again to repentance. The problem is, Hurst, if you try to apply this passage to true believers, then you can’t even justify your own sacrament of reconciliation/penance. The writer says it’s impossible to renew them to repentance.

Acts 1:25: As for Judas, Christ called him a devil (Jn. 6:70). I find it fascinating how the Catholic church tries so hard to count him amongst the saved. What is this affinity your church has with Judas?

Gal. 5:3-4: Those who were “severed from Christ” were those who wanted to be justified by works, not faith. Actually, this is a very clear warning for you, dear fellow.

James. 5:19-20: James says “if any among you strays from the truth…” James was writing to a mixed crowd (like the writer of Hebrews, as did Paul in his letters ), and not all among them were true believers (which is true in any church, even today). This is made obvious when James refers to the one straying as “a sinner,” and if a true brother can “convert” him then he will certainly save his soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Hust, the Epistles are full of warnings. They’re warnings!!! They’re not threats addressed to true believers on losing what God has freely given them in Christ. It’s the legalistic mind that indiscriminately applies these passage to the saved, while constantly overlooking the plain and simple passages that actually teach on salvation according to God’s infinite grace through faith in Christ alone. Of course this makes perfect sense because the legalistic mind cannot comprehend pure grace (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor). In fact, to him grace is repugnant.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[LegionofMary]

Below is the site to an article entitled, “Purgatory for Everyone”
This article was given out in our RCIA class by our Parish Priest.
The article itself is not written by a Catholic, but by a Protestant of the Wesleyan tradition.

firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0204/articles/walls.html

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

 

[hurst]

bene7:

No, what you’re saying is all twisted theology and not based on written revelation. What we know is based on divine revelation. And divine revelation says our access into this grace in which we stand is Jesus Christ himself. Read Rom. 5:1-2 again. “Faith” is IN the Lord Jesus Christ, and through Him we stand in divine grace…

We have access by Him, sure, but it is on account of our faith.

Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access through faith into this grace, wherein we stand, and glory in the hope of the glory of the sons of God.

This is consistent with the Gospel accounts where Jesus healed people on account of their faith. Yes, they were healed by Jesus, but it was because of their faith that they received it from Him.

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

It is God himself who saves us - not our faith or our works:“He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit”

Compare with this passage:

Matthew 9:29 Then he touched their eyes, saying, According to your faith, be it done unto you.

See how it is conditioned by our faith? We must cooperate with God.

The same could be said regarding the passages in which Jesus says their faith had made them whole

Matthew 9:22 But Jesus turning and seeing her, said: Be of good heart, daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

He even did things on the basis of someone else’s faith:

Matthew 15:28 Then Jesus answering, said to her: O woman, great is thy faith: be it done to thee as thou wilt: and her daughter was cured from that hour.

Though these are physical healings, the concept is the same regarding anything else requiring faith.

bene7:

Now you nod at this as if you’re in agreement, but ultimately you preach a “gospel” of self-works.

When did I say “self-works”? I said “good works”, and specified they had to be done in faith, by the grace of God. Anything not of faith is a sin (Rom 14:23). Why do you have to portray my words as something obviously contrary to what I carefully lay out? I would say self-works are evil works, and those who do them will suffer for it.

bene7:

Have you not said yourself that apart from works a man cannot be saved?

But it must be understood as I have said it - that apart from good works, a man cannot remain saved. Thus, good works are indeed required over time to remain in the faith and in grace (2 Peter 1:10). Also, all works will be judged (Apoc 20:13), so if we have evil works instead of good works, then we will suffer loss, either temporary or permanent. But we can not do good works to be “fully saved” unless we are first “saved” by the grace of God that is given as a gift in response to our faith.

Think about it. If you don’t do good works, then you do evil works. I am speaking of those who are capable of doing works.

Those who have no faith are not saved in this life, and thus do no good works, and thus in the judgement will suffer penalty for their evil works. Those who have faith and are “saved” in this life, have grace in that faith, and are able to do good works, if only they will. Those who do will receive a reward in glory in addition to eternal life (Matt 19:29). Those who do poorly will suffer loss of reward, yet live (1 Cor 3:15). Those who don’t, but turn against God and lose their grace, will be cast out and share the lot of unbelievers (Lk 12:46).

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

But according to Paul, works and grace cannot co-exist in respect to getting saved,

Yes and no.

He is talking about the works of circumcision, animal sacrifice, and other “self” efforts to satisfy God’s law and earn the right to be given His grace.

When “getting saved” means being reconciled and obtaining the favor of God, then it is clear that we do not get it as a result of our own initiative. For God comes to us, and if we receive Him in faith, then we are not judged, but are welcomed. God is the Author of our salvation. Still, we must obey. Thus, we are required to be baptized to be saved, and to do all He commanded (Matt 28:19-20).

But when “getting saved” means entering heavenly glory, then rest assured that it will depend on what we did with the opportunities God gave us to do good works for His glory. Jesus makes this clear, and Paul supports it various places, too.

The fact is, just because we are saved through faith in Christ does not mean we no longer have to do anything. We are still obligated to fulfill the law of God, which is charity. The difference is that we are now able to, and that we no longer have to fear eternal loss. The law is perfected:

Romans 3:31 Do we, then, destroy the law through faith? God forbid: but we establish the law.

The law is summed up in the love of neighbor. If we “get saved”, but then refuse to observe the new commandment of love, and do not forgive, then God will not forgive us, either (Matt 6:15). We can lose our place in heaven.

bene7:

or for that matter, even maintaining salvation

But it does, as I have abundantly made clear already by various scripture passages, such as this one:

2 Peter 1:9 For he that hath not these things with him, is blind, and groping, having forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time.

bene7:

Please don’t quote James to me. James is talking in the context of a false faith.

Not so fast. What do you suppose makes it “false”? Is it not because it is dead, having no life that brings forth works of justice?

For to be just, one must keep faith.

bene7:

Scripture is emphatic about works not being a part of the salvation process, but certainly should be a part of the lives of those who ARE saved (Eph. 2:10).

But there is a day of judgment, wherein all our works will be judged. If you think that “believers” get a free pass just because they believed, then you think contrary to scripture.

Matthew 3:10 For now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that doth not yield good fruit, shall be cut down, and cast into the fire.

John 5:29 And they that have done good things, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.

Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. 10 But glory, and honour, and peace to every one that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all be manifested before the judgement seat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he hath done, whether it be good or evil.

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

hurst:

The new question for you to face is this: why do you think you are guaranteed salvation when scripture itself says it is possible to fall away from the faith? Lk. 8:13; Heb. 6:4-8; Acts 1:25; Gal. 5:3-4; James 5:19-20).

As Paul states above, once you theologically introduce works into the process of salvation then grace is no longer grace.

The “process of salvation” needs to be defined. If by that you mean the process of being given the initial state of grace, then one must see that as a gift that is not earned or acquired by works. But this very unearned grace is what we need in order to perform works worthy of the reward of glory. So if by salvation one includes the acquisition of heavenly glory, then works are a part of it, because God will render to us according to our works, whether good or bad.

bene7:

Luke 8:13: Actually, Jesus makes reference to salvation only in Lk. 8:12.

How is that?

Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 And they by the way side are they that hear; then the devil cometh, and taketh the word out of their heart, lest believing they should be saved. 13 Now they upon the rock, are they who when they hear, receive the word with joy: and these have no roots; for they believe for a while, and in time of temptation, they fall away. 14 And that which fell among thorns, are they who have heard, and going their way, are choked with the cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and yield no fruit. 15 But that on the good ground, are they who in a good and perfect heart, hearing the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit in patience.

bene7:

Heb. 6:4-6: Compare the description in this passage to that of true believers in other passages. The true believer has not simply been enlightened, but is light (Eph. 5:8);

Are you defining a distinction here? But then what do you make of verse 14:

Ephesians 5:14 Wherefore he saith: Rise thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead: and Christ shall enlighten thee.

bene7:

he has not simply “tasted” of the heavenly gift, he actually HAS eternal life (Jn. 5:24);
he is not simply a “partaker” of the Holy Spirit, he is born of the Spirit, baptized and sealed by Him; he has not simply tasted of the good word of God, he has believed the word concerning Christ unto salvation; he hasn’t simply tasted the power of the age to come, he has experienced divine, transforming power within.

What then does the partaking and tasting mean? Are you saying they were never a believer in the first place? Are you saying God would let someone “partake” and “taste” these things without having faith?

bene7:

Heb. 6:4-6 was a warning to Jews who, though fully exposed to the truth of Christ, never fully believed.

Are you saying one can have partial belief? Are you saying that partial belief is not enough?

bene7:

They “walked the fence,” so to speak. The danger was that once they completely defected it would be impossible to renew them again to repentance.

Are you saying that once someone falls from the faith after partially believing, they can never return?

bene7:

The problem is, Hurst, if you try to apply this passage to true believers, then you can’t even justify your own sacrament of reconciliation/penance. The writer says it’s impossible to renew them to repentance.

Actually, I can.

That passage is referring to being renewed to the repentance that leads into baptism. The Jews had ritual washings like baptism that they repeated, and Paul was telling them that the Baptism of Christ was not like that because it invoked the redemptive value of His death on the one who died with Him. Therefore, to be baptized again was mocking Him by making Him seem to have to die again for us. In fact, His one sacrifice sufficed to atone for all sins and then some.

Once someone is baptised, they receive an indelible mark on their soul that cannot be removed. You can say that once we are baptised, we always remain baptised. We become a child of God.

But if we sin afterwards and lose our grace, we cannot be reconciled and restored to grace by being baptised again. How do we return? By penance (Apoc 2:5). This is also why Christ gave the power to forgive sins (John 20:23). The reason we have the sacrament of reconciliation is precisely because people do sin after baptism, yet baptism cannot be repeated.

(continued)

 

[hurst]

bene7:

Acts 1:25: As for Judas, Christ called him a devil (Jn. 6:70). I find it fascinating how the Catholic church tries so hard to count him amongst the saved. What is this affinity your church has with Judas?

Do you think the Church believes he is in heaven? I don’t think the Church believes that at all.

In any case, scripture obviously places him as formerly having been a believer:

Acts 1:25 To take the place of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas hath by transgression fallen, that he might go to his own place.

bene7:

Gal. 5:3-4: Those who were “severed from Christ” were those who wanted to be justified by works, not faith. Actually, this is a very clear warning for you, dear fellow.

By the works of the law of circumcision. I do not advocate that. The Church even says those who circumcise themselves to be saved forfeit salvation in Christ.

You should know by now that I don’t advocate such “works”, but rather “good works” done in faith by grace.

There is a difference between the gift of grace apart from works, and the reward of glory based on works of charity done by grace.

bene7:

James. 5:19-20: James says “if any among you strays from the truth…” James was writing to a mixed crowd (like the writer of Hebrews, as did Paul in his letters ), and not all among them were true believers (which is true in any church, even today). This is made obvious when James refers to the one straying as “a sinner,” and if a true brother can “convert” him then he will certainly save his soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

That is irrelevant, because “straying from” implies that they were with it at one point.

bene7:

Hust, the Epistles are full of warnings. They’re warnings!!! They’re not threats addressed to true believers on losing what God has freely given them in Christ. It’s the legalistic mind that indiscriminately applies these passage to the saved, while constantly overlooking the plain and simple passages that actually teach on salvation according to God’s infinite grace through faith in Christ alone. Of course this makes perfect sense because the legalistic mind cannot comprehend pure grace (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor). In fact, to him grace is repugnant.

Why would even a warning be needed if it weren’t possible to lose something if not heeded?

The one who lets his grace sit under a bushel basket, or in the ground wrapped in a napkin, or otherwise neglects to put it to work, is treating the Giver with contempt. For it was given that it might yield fruit to His glory.

hurst

 

[hurst]

LegionofMary:

Below is the site to an article entitled, “Purgatory for Everyone”
This article was given out in our RCIA class by our Parish Priest.
The article itself is not written by a Catholic, but by a Protestant of the Wesleyan tradition.

firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0204/articles/walls.html

Thank you for that link. I think it is amazing that a Protestant wrote that.

hurst

 

[bene7]

hurst:

Thank you for that link. I think it is amazing that a Protestant wrote that. hurst

Why? There are many men teaching in Protestant seminaries who are in a state of unbelief. He’s a professor of “Philosophy of Religion.” That sounds about right. The whole article is about “religion,” not Christ and Him crucified. What man must do, not what God has done. Reading it my mind kept going back to what Paul said:“For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, that the cross of Christ should not be made void” {1 Cor. 1:17).Walls wrote:*“While the doctrine was not fully developed until the Middle Ages, the seeds from which it grew go back at least to the Church Fathers, if not to Scripture itself. Cyprian (c. 200–258), for instance, struggled with the question of what to think about Christians who had weakened under persecution.”*He’s right on in that the doctrine did not fully develope until the middle ages. It grew out of the minds of men, not God. It has no Apostolic or Scriptural support and its roots go back to ancient Persia and Greece.

Forgiveness alone does not eliminate unpleasant odors, and lack of condemnation does not clean up soiled clothes. Other remedies are necessary, and as Lewis suggests, they may involve pain.

“Other remedies are necessary.” Again the words of Paul resonate: "not in cleverness of speech, that the cross of Christ should not be made void".

Blessings,
Bene

 

[Pryority7]

Bene, since you are so filled with “wisdom” and “assurance of your own salvation”, let me ask you a straight question…what will God do to your sin nature when you die? And don’t answer with “God already dealt with my sin on the cross”, because even though that is true, it has not yet been actualized in your own individual life. Unless of course you claim to be immaculate and with no sin whatsoever. What’s the answer, ben?

 

[Mickey]

This is a wonderful thread to read. Again, I must applaud hurst! :clapping:
His posts are clear, concise, irrefutable, and Catholic!

Others may twist and turn the Scriptures to make it fit their personal theology, but the Catholic Church has provided us with the true interpretation–and truth always uncovers the transparency of revision.

 

[bene7]

Pryority7:

what will God do to your sin nature when you die? And don’t answer with “God already dealt with my sin on the cross”, because even though that is true, it has not yet been actualized in your own individual life. Unless of course you claim to be immaculate and with no sin whatsoever. What’s the answer, ben?

But God has already dealt with my sin on the cross. And yes, the cancelling out of my sins has already been actualized:"And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, (1) having forgiven us all our transgressions, (2) having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; (3) and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross (Col. 2:13-14).To claim that the divine dealing with my sins has not been “actualized,” is to deny the historicity of the crucifixion of Christ itself, much less its significance, its divinely intended purpose.

You see, Pry, the error of Catholicism is that it teaches that it must still deal with sins, through its sacerdotal and sacramental system, that God already dealt with, once for all, 2000 years ago on the cross. It denies that God had His judgement Day on sin 2000 years ago when “*He who knew no sin, became sin on my behalf,” * and died in my stead (2 Cor. 5:21). I know you dislike hearing the phrase “substitutionary death of Christ,” but that’s what it is. And Hurst denies that Christ paid the penalty Himself for our sins, but that’s what He did. For the true believer, now in Christ, there are no sins yet to be dealt with, hence, no future judgment in respect to sin and salvation, and no future purging of sins in an imaginary place called “purgatory.” *Hamartiology * rooted in unbelief.

As for “sin nature,” it’s not really a Biblical term. Scripture talks about the “old man” (palaios anthropos), and this refers to all who I was “in Adam.” And Scripture reveals that God has no divine program of rehabilitation for the “old man” (all who I was in Adam). The only “program” God had for the “old man” was death, and this through the cross of Christ:"Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? (Rom. 6:3).

"…knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin (Rom. 6:6).

Scripture reveals (divine revelation) that when Christ died, I (the “old man” in Adam) died with Him. Ritual, water baptism being the symbol of our being spiritually baptized into Christ, and into His death. And just as Christ was raised to new life, I too was raised to new life “in Him:”"For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection (Rom. 6:5)You see, Pry, Christ not only died “for” my sins, He also died “to” sin, once for all, and was subsequently raised to new life. Hence, my relationship “to sin” is the same as His: dead to it.

Scripture reveals that God sees humanity either “in Adam,” still dead in trespasses and sins, or, “in Christ” (the “Last Adam,” the “second Man,” 1 Cor. 15:45-47) made alive, having been raised up with Him:“If then you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory” (Col. 3:1-2).The Apostle John concurs with the Apostle Paul:"Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we shall be. We know that, when He appears, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him just as He is."That is, in full resurrection glory.

The divine revelation of the cross, Pry, is that it is there that God dealt, forever, with my sins. And it is there that He dealt with all who I was “in Adam.” Having died “with Him,” and raised to new life “in Him.” I am no longer “in Adam,” but “in Christ” made righteous (Rom. 5:19).

For these reasons, Pry, no such doctrine like “purgatory” can be found in Scripture (divine revelation). It’s not a doctrine “built upon the foundation of Christ,” but one sneeked in the back door, borrowed from pagan philosophy, through the imaginations of mere men, rooted in unbelief.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[bene7]

Mickey:

This is a wonderful thread to read. Again, I must applaud hurst! :clapping:
His posts are clear, concise, irrefutable, and Catholic!

Others may twist and turn the Scriptures to make it fit their personal theology, but the Catholic Church has provided us with the true interpretation–and truth always uncovers the transparency of revision.

Yes, I must admit Hurst’s posts are clear and definitely, as you say, “Catholic.” Hence, as shown often in this thread, Biblically refutable.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[Pryority7]

But God has already dealt with my sin on the cross. And yes, the cancelling out of my sins has already been actualized:"

So therefore you are immaculate…sinless…you claim you have no sin. That’s what you’re saying? Yes or no is suffice a response.

You see, Pry, the error of Catholicism is that it teaches that it must still deal with sins, through its sacerdotal and sacramental system, that God already dealt with, once for all, 2000 years ago on the cross. It denies that God had His judgement Day on sin 2000 years ago when “*He who knew no sin, became sin on my behalf,” * and died in my stead (2 Cor. 5:21). I know you dislike hearing the phrase “substitutionary death of Christ,” but that’s what it is. And Hurst denies that Christ paid the penalty Himself for our sins, but that’s what He did.

Your view of salvation is not only unbiblical but unfactual. I believe that Christ paid the penalty. We as Catholic believe that Christ paid the penalty once and for all. The problem is your view of how the once and for all sacrifice is applied to the believer’s life. You make God out to be a lawer more than a Heavenly Father concerned and actively involved with the growth and maturation of His children. This maturing is a life long process. According to what you’re saying ben, is that you’ve already achieved it. You’re perfect!!!

For the true believer, now in Christ, there are no sins yet to be dealt with, hence, no future judgment in respect to sin and salvation, and no future purging of sins in an imaginary place called “purgatory.” *Hamartiology * rooted in unbelief.

Once again, since there are no more sins to be dealt with, therefore you believe you are without sin. Yes or no? No lecture…just Yes or No.

As for “sin nature,” it’s not really a Biblical term. Scripture talks about the “old man” (palaios anthropos), and this refers to all who I was “in Adam.” And Scripture reveals that God has no divine program of rehabilitation for the “old man” (all who I was in Adam). The only “program” God had for the “old man” was death, and this through the cross of Christ:

"Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? (Rom. 6:3).
​

Read Romans 7. Paul is talking about his “flesh” of course in other translations it’s called sin nature. He talks about His struggle with sin on a personal level. If your claim is correct…then Paul is wrong…both cannot be right.

"…knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin (Rom. 6:6).

Amen. That’s why we are to “work out our own salvation with fear and trembling” so that we may no longer be slaves to sin, because our old self WAS crucified with Him in baptism (I noticed you didn’t mention that one thing in the context of Romans 6). We grab on to this reality and we apply it to our daily lives. This of course comes out naturally in the form of loving works for God.

For these reasons, Pry, no such doctrine like “purgatory” can be found in Scripture (divine revelation). It’s not a doctrine “built upon the foundation of Christ,” but one sneeked in the back door, borrowed from pagan philosophy, through the imaginations of mere men, rooted in unbelief.

You’d be surprised how many pagan things we’ve adopted. Are you married ben? Do you wear a wedding ring? That’s pagan in origin. I’d suggest you throw it away…oh but wait…you’re saved already and without sin so never mind…

Blessings,
Bene​

 

[Sean_Boyle]

There are several more things with pagan orgins that “scripture alone” people also believe “in faith” just like us Catholics.

Christmas for example… The celebration of the birth of a person is pagan. The celebration of Christmas also replaces a pagan tradition with one of Christ.

We all believe that Christmas (Christ’s Mass) is on December 25. Where is that in scripture. You do celebrate Christmas according to Tradition? Do you have a nativity scene at your church. :0 idolatry?, started by St. Francis.

Easter was celebrated last year a week after Jewish passover which is different than scriptural interpetation. Did everyone that believes in Christ observe Easter last year at the same time? Yes they did, all according to the calendar observed by the Church. More Tradition.

I could never list everything that falls into this category in the space here.

So are there Traditions that give glory to God? Even if they aren’t in the bible? careful…

 

[Mickey]

bene7:

Hence, as shown often in this thread, Biblically refutable.

Only according to king bene the Biblicist.
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_6.gif

 

[bene7]

Pryority7:

So therefore you are immaculate…sinless…you claim you have no sin. That’s what you’re saying? Yes or no is suffice a response.

As to who I am "in Christ, yes, I have no sin. I know it’s extremely difficult for you to understand Pauline theology, Pauline soteriology based on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. But again, all who I was “in Adam,” was “crucified with Christ” and all who I am “in Christ” is “raised up to new life with Him.” This is now and forever my new identity in Christ. His relationship “to sin” is my relationship “to sin,” that being having died to it with Him (Rom. 6:10). It’s quite simple, but as Paul says, these things are not understood to the “natural man” (psuchikos,1 Cor. 2:14).

Your view of salvation is not only unbiblical but unfactual.

Yet I supplied you with all the Biblical FACTS.

The problem is your view of how the once and for all sacrifice is applied to the believer’s life. You make God out to be a lawer more than a Heavenly Father concerned and actively involved with the growth and maturation of His children.

The key phrase here being “His children.” His children are not still in Adam, dead in trespasses and sins, but “in Christ,” having died with Him on the cross and raised to new life with Him. Even now, positionally, “hidden with God,” seated with Him in heaven (Col. 3:1-4). My view of salvation is Paul’s view of salvation. Not only that Christ died “for” my sins (forensic), but He died “to sin,” as well (actual). And based on divine REVELATION (which purgatory lacks) I died “with Him” and am raised to new life “in Him.” And this is what it means whenever you read a writer of an Epistle addressing those to whom he is writing as “in Christ Jesus.” Being in Christ, hence, no longer in Adam, I am as sinless as Christ, being dead to sin, having died with Him, and raised to new life in Him. Question: Did Christ take our sins back to heaven with Him?

This maturing is a life long process. According to what you’re saying ben, is that you’ve already achieved it. You’re perfect!!!

You utterly fail to understand the true Christian faith and the pure and simple gospel (good-news) message of the cross. It is not, was not, or ever will be “my job” to achieve sinless perfection while in this present body. It was God the Father who sent the Son into this world to deal with my sins, and this He accomplished perfectly and completely on the cross:“But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed” (Is. 53:5).

“But the Lord was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; [f He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, and the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand” (Is. 53:10)

“As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; by His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities” (Is. 53:11).

This maturing is a life long process.

I agree, but “maturing” is only for those already “in Christ.” Maturing in Christ is not trying to achieve sinlessness in this life, in this body. But he is to grow (mature) in a greater understanding of what God has already done through Christ for him, and who he is now “in Christ:”"…but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen (2 Pet. 3:18).And obviously as one grows in [the] grace and knowledge of Christ it will have an immediate effect on his walk in this life, this side of glory:“Therefore also we have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him” (2 Cor. 5:9).

Blessings,
Bene

 

[bene7]

Pryority7:

Read Romans 7. Paul is talking about his “flesh” of course in other translations it’s called sin nature. He talks about His struggle with sin on a personal level. If your claim is correct…then Paul is wrong…both cannot be right.

Some translations have erroneously translated the Greek word sarki in Rom. 7:25 as “sin nature.” But this is not a translation, but a theological interpretation of that word. It should be correctly translated “flesh.” It is theologically incorrect to call “the flesh” the true believer’s “nature.” If that were so Paul could not exhort the believer to “walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.” In fact, to sin actually goes against the believer’s “nature,” i.e., who he is in Christ and “in the Spirit:”“However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.”

Amen. That’s why we are to “work out our own salvation with fear and trembling” so that we may no longer be slaves to sin, because our old self WAS crucified with Him in baptism (I noticed you didn’t mention that one thing in the context of Romans 6).

I did cover baptism in my previous post. Being baptized into Christ’s death has to do with the Spirit, not water (see 1 Cor. 12:13). Ritual, water baptism is done “in the name” of Christ, but it is the Spirit Himself who actually baptizes one “into Christ” at the time of true faith (see Rom. 6:3 for “into Christ”). Water baptism can only symbolize what can be done only by the power of the Spirit.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[Pryority7]

As to who I am "in Christ, yes, I have no sin. I know it’s extremely difficult for you to understand Pauline theology, Pauline soteriology based on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. But again, all who I was “in Adam,” was “crucified with Christ” and all who I am “in Christ” is “raised up to new life with Him.” This is now and forever my new identity in Christ. His relationship “to sin” is my relationship “to sin,” that being having died to it with Him (Rom. 6:10).

So basically you can sin the worst sin, and yet still be saved because you’re hiding behind “Christ’s cloak of righeousness” There is no real transformation or change from within. You’re all clean on the outside because it’s not your cloak, and underneath you still stink. Is that how God wants you in Heaven when you go to be with Him?

It’s quite simple, but as Paul says, these things are not understood to the “natural man”

So since I’m a natural man because of my Catholic views I cannot understand Pauline theology. What arrogance.

(psuchikos,1 Cor. 2:14).

The key phrase here being “His children.” His children are not still in Adam, dead in trespasses and sins, but “in Christ,” having died with Him on the cross and raised to new life with Him. Even now, positionally, “hidden with God,” seated with Him in heaven (Col. 3:1-4). My view of salvation is Paul’s view of salvation. Not only that Christ died “for” my sins (forensic), but He died “to sin,” as well (actual).

First of all, it’s amazing how you take one word I used, “children” and use it as ammo to base your argument by using scripture and THIS is supposed to prove the point…it doesn’t…it just proves how you’re able to take any word and formulate it to defend your case. .

Question: Did Christ take our sins back to heaven with Him?

Of course not. He died to sin and for our sins just as you have said, as well as we have, that is those who seek Him and accept Him. Scripture is clear that nothing unclean can enter Heaven (Rev 21). That’s why the idea to just be cloaked in Christ’s righteousness and still be filthy underneath is a total contradiction to Rev 21. We are not just in Christ, but Christ is in us…Changing us from the inside out. This is a process. A process that is finally finished in purgatory.

You utterly fail to understand the true Christian faith and the pure and simple gospel (good-news) message of the cross. It is not, was not, or ever will be “my job” to achieve sinless perfection while in this present body. It was God the Father who sent the Son into this world to deal with my sins, and this He accomplished perfectly and completely on the cross:

“But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed” (Is. 53:5).

So therefore you are free on any responsibility for any actions you may do as a believer right? There are no consequences, natural or legal that bind you to owe up to the times that you will fall on your face in your walk of faith…is that what you’re saying? Yes or no.

 

[Pryority7]

Boy…I really mess up on these quote replies…