Purgatory and prayer

[Catfinger77]

I’m currently reading the Diary of St. Faustina Kowalska and read a section about souls in Purgatory which brought up a question in my mind. Are souls in purgatory allowed to pray for others? The Diary says they may not pray for themselves.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Souls that are in Purgatory cannot pray for themselves, or for other Souls in Purgatory.

Obviously once they leave Purgatory and reach Heaven, they can pray for a person on earth or for a soul in Purgatory just the same as any saint in Heaven could do so.

The Church has not definitively spoken to the issue of whether souls in Purgatory can, while still in Purgatory, pray for a person on earth, such as the person who prays for them. Theologians and Doctors of the Church have had differing views on this; some say yes, some say no. This article provides a good summary of the different views in the section entitled “Intercession of Those in Purgatory”.

Can Souls in Purgatory Pray for Us? - Ascension Press Media

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

I’m currently reading the Diary of St. Faustina Kowalska and read a section about souls in Purgatory which brought up a question in my mind. Are souls in purgatory allowed to pray for others? The Diary says they may not pray for themselves.

Yes, they can pray for those of us here on earth. We have some great allies of our friends and relatives that may be in purgatory, if we ask them to pray for us and others here on earth.
They cannot pray for themselves or each other in purgatory, according to tradition of the Church.

Those in Puratory and in Heaven form the Communion of the Saints, together with us living here on earth. This spiritual solidarity binds us all together, just as the saints can petition and intercede for the living, the tradition is that the souls in purgatory can do the same.

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

The Catechism of the Church covers that. Do a google on it with the term ‘vatican’ at the end. You will get links to the Vatican Catechism pages

 

[JerryZ]

Many many things are not written in the Bible. Try to look for the word Trinity and you will not find it directly but its principle is there.
Same with Purgatory, the word is not there but in many places you can find its principles or foundations.
The Bible is not the sole source of the Christian belief, it is an important part but apart from the Church to extricate its many hidden gems we become our own popes each believing different things. This is why protestantism is so fragmented where each pastor can make his/her own theology.
Peace!

 

[TK421]

Catfinger77:

souls in Purgatory

Question - is Purgatory real? When was it first mentioned in the Bible, if ever? When did it become part of Catholic teaching? Is it still?

By the time of the books of 1& 2 Maccabees we see that Jews are speaking about a resurrection as well as doing prayers for the dead. Theology develops over time, but by the time of Christ there was already some crude conception of purgatory among pious Jews.

 

[thistle]

Question - is Purgatory real? When was it first mentioned in the Bible, if ever? When did it become part of Catholic teaching? Is it still?

Is Purgatory in the Bible? | Catholic Answers Magazine

 

[Tis_Bearself]

In the same manner, I’d like to know the history of Purgatory.

Purgatory - Wikipedia

What the Early Church Believed: Purgatory | Catholic Answers Tract

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

 

[Tis_Bearself]

“Hell” is no longer considered to be ‘suffering’, but rather absence of God.

Absence of God is considered the worst form of suffering.

The Catholic Church does not take a definite position on whether Purgatory involves physical torment or mental torment or simply absence from God or is it a relatively pleasant place where you simply go to learn. Respected theological teachers are all over the map on this. Catholic books with imprimaturs and nihil obstats propose all kinds of viewpoints.

 

[Vico]

Thanks for the links, I read through them. Seems like an incompatibility: “Hell” is no longer considered to be ‘suffering’, but rather absence of God. But the doctrine of Purgatory states that there is pain and suffering.
Are we now saying that the Catholic Church now insists purification from sin requires physical pain/suffering? I thought we were getting away from that.

A major criticism of Christianity is the absolute cruelty of the concept of Hell. You sin for a few minutes on earth, then suffer for eternity in pain, fire, ice, etc. So now we say “Hell” is the separation from God - your choice.
BUT…now we are also saying to be with God, you MUST (unless you are perfect) suffer pain. Why? This does not seem compatible with a loving God.

At the resurrection, the souls and bodies are reunited. This also allows for physical suffering (each of the condemned have a body but it is not a glorified body). Those in purgatory state are without a physical body – their person has not been reconstituted body and soul.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. 606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: 607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. 608

606 Cf. Council of Florence (1439)S 1304; Council of Trent (1563)S 1820; (1547):1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336)S 1000.
607 Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
608 St. Gregory the Great, Dial . 4,39L 77,396; cf. Mt 12:31.

1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he “will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,” 615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!” 616

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” 617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

615 Mt 13:41-42.
616 Mt 25:41.
617 Cf. DS 76; 409; 411; 801; 858; 1002; 1351; 1575; Paul VI, CPG § 12.

 

[Catfinger77]

For my part, I’m older, raised by more traditiionalist Catholic parents and Catholic school teachers. I would prefer to believe that Hell is less hellish than has been taught for centuries, though.

 

[thistle]

I won’t quote your post, but it sounds like you believe that there clearly is physical pain and suffering, both for the eternally damned and those that must pass through Purgatory.

I am not judging in any way. I just think that is interesting because the general direction of apologetics in Christianity is to deny Hell as having any physical pain - Hell is simply your decision to spend eternity away from God. Specifically, the concept of Hell and Purgatory are incompatible with a loving God.

But you seem to disagree, and follow the more traditional and conservative approach that Hell and Purgatory are actual physical states of being with real pain and real suffering.

The reason I bring this up is that one of the primary arguments against any religion is that there is really no common religion. Every person really has their own. And you also support my point that according to the Catechism, Hell is a real place with real suffering.

CCC 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

 

[Vico]

…

Hell and Purgatory are compatible with a loving God and are necessary for justice.

From my post it should be clear that there is no physical suffering in purgatory, since there is no body.
There is also no physical suffering in hell, before the body is resurrected at the Parousia. The physical suffering in hell need not be literally fire, but it is physical because there is then, from the Parousia, the physical body resurrected.

 

[EndTimes]

Are souls in purgatory allowed to pray for others?

I don’t know…

All I do know is that to be in PURgatory is akin to having a Ticket to Eternal Life w/God

We become spiritually PURified … ultimately via having our will give full Assent to God’s Will,…

 

[Vico]

Vico:

From my post it should be clear that there is no physical suffering in purgatory, since there is no body.

But from my research the Catechism of the Church STATES that Purgatory requires physical pain and suffering.
There are many references to this.

As I said (and you seem to agree), ‘new age’ Catholicism (my term) promotes a view of Hell as separation from God - NOT pain. I have seen many highly respected Christian apologists make this point to counter atheist claims that Hell is incompatible with a loving God.
But the Catechism states Purgatory is physical pain due to cleansing prior to entering Heaven.

But there is no body in purgatory, therefore if there is perception of pain it will be only in the soul which is will and intelligence. “As through fire” is an allusion to the heated metal being transformed. The councils that developed purgatory doctrines did not refer to physical fire. (Lyon II, Florence, Trent)

Earlier than that, Origen of Alexandria, A.D. 185-232:

It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works.

Patres Groeci . XIII, col. 445, 448

 

[Vico]

Vico:

if there is perception of pain it will be only in the soul which is will and intelligence.

But why use the word “pain” then?
You say there is no ‘pain’ but then there is pain.
The whole point is that ANY concept of pain (material, psychological, or even spiritual) is contrary to the concept of God as a loving being.
Suffering in any sense is suffering.

Separation from God is not the same as pain. It is your choice to sin. You do not want to be with God. It is a passive effect - but when God inflicts suffering on you that is not love. As I said, I thought we were getting away from that. I think many Christians feel that way.
The reason I brought it up is that Purgatory seems to contradict that viewpoint.

Eternal damnation is justice which is not contrary to the love of God; it is not attributed to God’s initiative because in love God can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. There is mercy for those that repent, and for those that freely choose malice, there is justice as chosen by the person.

Catechism

1057 Hell’s principal punishment consists of eternal separation from God in whom alone man can have the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

Separation from God is painful in one sense of the word. It may also be in both senses after the resurrection.

Collins dictionary, pain

• Variable Noun: Pain is the feeling of great discomfort you have, for example when you have been hurt or when you are ill.
• Uncountable Noun: Pain is the feeling of unhappiness that you have when something unpleasant or upsetting happens.

 

[EndTimes]

But from my research the Catechism of the Church STATES that Purgatory requires physical pain and suffering.

“physical pain”? “suffering” ? The CCC doesn’t use those terms…

St. John Paul II has a known view which expounds upon PURgatory…
which sees fire (cognate with pure) as being allegorical rather than literal
and refers to … Purification of the souls of the spirits there;
akin to PUFifying Gold with actual FIRe.

For only PURE Spirits can enter God’s Kingdom whereby no ImPURity is allowed

Could flaming physical fire hurt spirit forms without bodies?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

“physical pain”? “suffering” ? The CCC doesn’t use those terms…

Correct. CCC 1031 mentions a “cleansing fire” or a “purifying fire”. It says nothing about the fire necessarily causing physical pain to the soul passing through it.

The Church has no official teaching on whether Purgatory is physically painful or not. As I’ve said before, theologians are all over the map on this. It’s also not just a matter of “new age theologians” wanting to deny pain or whatever. Fr. Benedict Groeschel from EWTN taught that purgatory was a pleasant place (I had a whole thread on this recently), and he was associated with both Mother Teresa and Mother Angelica, neither of whom were modernists.

The bottom line is that other than this concept of a “purifying fire”, which may or may not cause physical pain, we have no idea, and the Church does not officially state, what exact process souls go through in Purgatory to be purified and whether it involves physical pain or just intense mental longing for God or what.

 

[BigRon]

I used to think there would be loads of sous in Purgatory but tend to think now there aren’t. I don’t usually think I will even make it there myself.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I would advise thinking more positively, as St. Therese said the soul gets exactly what it expects from God.