Purgatory and prayer

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What is the difference between eternal separation from God and Hell not being a real place.? If Hell isn’t real then neither is Heaven.
Additionally,where do you get the notion that most Catholic scholars reject the idea of a real Hell? I find that very hard to believe.
 
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jan10000 said:
As I said, if you believe Hell really is a place where souls are tortured in unimaginable pain, never to escape, with no hope, fire, devils and demons with pitchforks, and so forth - then the discussion doesn’t really apply to you. Purgatory IS consistent with the traditional view of Hell.
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Why can’t Hell be a state and a place?
One thing we know for sure is that anyone in Hell is there forever. No release.
 
jan10000 said:
The discussion refers to how some modern Catholic worldviews consider Hell a “state” rather than a place.
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Catholic Views are what the Catholic Church Teaches…

I’ve never said that Hell is a place. As in, e.g., To not make it to Heaven is as hell.

St. Pope JPII said this - Abridged
  1. God is the infinitely good and merciful Father. But man, called to respond to him freely, can unfortunately choose to reject his love and forgiveness once and for all, thus separating himself for ever from joyful communion with him. It is precisely this tragic situation that Christian doctrine explains when it speaks of eternal damnation or hell. It is not a punishment imposed externally by God but a development of premises already set by people in this life. The very dimension of unhappiness which this obscure condition brings can in a certain way be sensed in the light of some of the terrible experiences we have suffered which, as is commonly said, make life “hell”.
In a theological sense however, hell is something else: it is the ultimate consequence of sin itself, which turns against the person who committed it. It is the state of those who definitively reject the Father’s mercy, even at the last moment of their life.

The New Testament sheds new light on the condition of the dead, proclaiming above all that Christ by his Resurrection conquered death and extended his liberating power to the kingdom of the dead.
  1. The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy. This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: “To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called ‘hell’” (n. 1033).
“Eternal damnation”, therefore, is not attributed to God’s initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love. Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever. God’s judgement ratifies this state.
 
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jan10000 said:
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I subscribe to a loving God that does not inflict suffering on souls (the ‘new age’ version of Hell).
Therefore, I find Purgatory inconsistent and believe it not necessary - and even contrary to modern Christian thought.
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The purpose is to remove unhealthy attachments “following from the very nature of sin” that remain even in those the die in the state of sanctifying grace.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
The punishments of sin

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. [83] Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the “new man.” [84] Eph 4:22, 24.
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jan10000 said:
This is exactly my point. I won’t your entire post, but this is what I mean by Hell is not a place, it is a state. My point is that in this worldview of Hell, Purgatory is inconsistent. In other words, the recent declarations of what Hell is, obviate the need for Purgatory.
In other words, we have recently moved away from the position that Hell is a place of torment.
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Agreed. Before JPII spoke of this – I came to the same belief…
Purgatory is not Hell-Lite… It’s the ‘place’ where we become Purified IMB by fully accepting the Gospel as per what’s written in 1 Peter 3 and 1 Peter 4

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JP II - PURGATORY - Abridged.

For those who find themselves in a condition of being open to God, but still imperfectly, the journey towards full beatitude requires a purification, which the faith of the Church illustrates in the doctrine of ‘Purgatory’ (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 1030-1032).

The need for integrity obviously becomes necessary after death, for entering into perfect and complete communion with God. Those who do not possess this integrity must undergo purification.
  1. In following the Gospel exhortation to be perfect like the heavenly Father (cf. Mt 5:48) during our earthly life, we are called to grow in love, to be sound and flawless before God the Father ‘at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints’ (1 Thes 3:12f.). Moreover, we are invited to ‘cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit’ (2 Cor 7:1; cf. 1 Jn 3:3), because the encounter with God requires absolute purity.
Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected. Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church’s teaching on purgatory. The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence. Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ who removes from them the remnants of imperfection

It is necessary to explain that the state of purification is not a prolungation of the earthly condition, almost as if after death one were given another possibility to change one’s destiny.

Just as in their earthly life believers are united in the one Mystical Body, so after death those who live in a state of purification experience the same ecclesial solidarity which works through prayer, prayers for suffrage and love for their other brothers and sisters in the faith. Purification is lived in the essential bond created between those who live in this world and those who enjoy eternal beatitude.
 
jan10000 said:
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It is not an inconsistency in the dogmas of faith, expressed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

God wishes the salvation of all, but wills that each of mankind has free will to allow for partaking in divinity, and that necessarily results in some that will choose malice instead of charity. It is love for His creatures to allow for partaking in divinity.

Hell: God does punish mortal sin in those that finally and freely choose malice will experience loss of their potential Beatific Vision.

Purgatory: also similarly for those that die with unhealthy attachments to creatures will experience a delay in attaining the Beatific Vision.

Oxford Dictionary:
  • Punish: to make somebody suffer because they have broken the law or done something wrong.
  • Suffer [transitive]: suffer something to experience something unpleasant, such as injury, defeat or loss.
 
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jan10000 opined…

All these response just quote the Catechism.
I am stating that the Catechism is inconsistent.

No. And that’s not the first time that some RAILED against the CCC

The yes Authoritative CCC was crafted to put all falsity re: Catholic Doctrine - to rest.

As with those who attempt to cast Doubt upon Jesus and His Gospel
and with the Sacredness of Scriptures, those who strive to undermine Authority for reason that Authoritative Teachings undermine their Agendae, we deal with them all the time.
 
Hell like Heaven is a state,however the fires of hell represent the agony of souls separated from the Beatific Vision for all eternity.
 
Jeanne_S said:
fires
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And Fire is Etymologically Cognate with Pur-ification.

As gold is refined in FIRe
We become PUR-ified in Pur-gatory
Most likely via our spirits accepting the GOSPEL. .

For this is the reason the GOSPEL was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit. – 1 Peter 4

)
 
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jan10000 said:
Personally, I’m on the side that we have a loving God, Hell is a chosen state of separating yourself from Him, and there is no Purgatory.
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Well I will stick with the Church whose teachings have the full authority of God behind them.
 
jan10000 said:
Personally, I’m on the side that we have a loving God, Hell is a chosen state of separating yourself from Him, and there is no Purgatory.
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What do you make of this?

1 Peter 3 —
For indeed Christ died for sins once for all, the Just and Righteous for the unjust and unrighteous [the Innocent for the guilty] so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit; in which He also went and preached to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the great patience of God was waiting in the days of Noah.

1 Peter 4 – For the time past is sufficient to have fulfilled the will of the Gentiles, for them who have walked in riotousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and unlawful worshipping of idols. Wherein they think it strange, that you run not with them into the same confusion of riotousness, speaking evil of you. Who shall render account to him, who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

For this cause was the Gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit.

APOSTLES CREED

I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:
And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:
Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into "hell"
( Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek )
The third day he rose again from the dead:
He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:
 
jan10000 said:
Perhaps you have the authority of the Church leaders behind you, but we can both claim God supports our position. You can say my viewpoint is not Catholic, but I am fine with that.
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The Catholic Church is the ONLY church established by Christ. He entrusted it with the Deposit of Faith and gave it authority to teach in matters of faith and morals.
All Church teachings have the full authority of God supporting them.
Catholics who reject one or more Church teachings are rejecting God.
 
This sounds like the debates you were watching were on the problem of evil:

Given:
  1. God is all powerful.
  2. God is all good.
  3. God is all knowing.
  4. Evil exists.
One of these can’t be true.

And the current conundrum is where Purgatory fits in with modern debates and concept of Hell as a chosen state of separation from God. God is so completely loving that He would not even allow us to inflict, or choose, pain and suffering upon ourselves for eternity, but just be separated from Him.

If I remember correctly, the problem of evil was first countered with free will. That was accepted for awhile until the question “If God is all powerful, why can’t he make us always freely choose good?” A paradox (Really not all that different than something Christians call mysteries). That was answered with “necessary evil” and “necessary good” - medicine that hurts you initially, but eventually cures you. Or going to the dentist after not going for years. You save your teeth, but man can that be a pain. And so it continues back and forth. I stopped keeping track of it quite some time ago. It boils down to how can bad things happen to good people? How are unborn children allowed to be killed? They, the most pure and innocent!?

Unfortunately, I’m most likely not going to have the answers you are looking for, but I will make a feeble attempt:

For me it comes down to the paradox. An atheist friend of mine in my younger days once asked me “can God make a rock so big He can’t lift it?” I didn’t know what to say. He seemed to take the argument to absurdity and I had no way to bring it back. But the answer is most assuredly “Yes!” So we have the old and new covenants. God’s promising is binding to all parties involved. A paradox answers a paradox. Why pray for the dead? As you say, if the deceased is already in Heaven or Hell they don’t need prayers. But you are applying time to a God not bound by time (another paradox). Applying time to souls that have departed from time. Does it make a difference if purgatory happens in an instant or years? Trying to fathom the unfathomable…why can’t my prayers for someone who is deceased now be applied to them by a God not bound in past, present, or future?

You are trying to understand the depths of God’s love. Have you asked the Lord for guidance? Are you Christian? Catholic? If you are the latter, I would guide you to words from the Mass:

“The Mystery of Faith”

I know you said you don’t like mystery as an answer. But knowing through Faith is a mystery. Describing Faith with human communication is difficult. Faith is more than believing in God, it is a way of knowing, a way of living, a way of interpreting the world around you, listening for God’s voice in everything. I have Faith that there is a Purgatory.
 
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Jan said:
Remember, the Bible is written by man, not God,

•••••••••••••••••••••••••

There’s the hitch. ?

If you’re determined/committed to not believe God’s GOSPEL ?
Your subconcious maintains a consistency reflecting your committment for you ?

However you care to interpret what you just wrote, God does Exist.
 
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