Purgatory And The After Life.

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continued . . .
Cyril of Jerusalem
Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition, next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep. For we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out (Catechetical Lectures 23:5:9 A.D. 350]).

John Chrysostom
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice [Job l:5), why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them (Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 A.D. 392]).
**Not in vain was it decreed by the apostles that in the awesome mysteries remembrance should be made of the departed. ****They knew that here there was much gain for them, much benefit. When the entire people stands with hands uplifted, a priestly assembly, and that awesome sacrificial victim is laid out, how, when we are calling upon God, should we not succeed in their defense? But this is done for those who have departed in the faith, while even the catechumens are not reckoned as worthy of this consolation, but are deprived of every means of assistance except one. And what is that? We may give alms to the poor on their behalf (Homilies on Philippians 3:9-10 A.D. 402]).

Ambrose of Milan
**Give perfect rest to thy servant Theodosius, that rest which thou hast prepared for thy saints… I have loved him, and therefore will I follow him into the land of the living; nor will I leave him until by tears and prayers I shall lead him wither his merits summon him, unto the holy mountain of the Lord (Funeral Sermon of Theodosius 36-37 A.D. 395]).

Augustine
Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter**, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment (The City of God 21:13 A.D. 419]).**
That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible**, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity l8:69 A.D. 421]).**
 
To answer the OP - it would be impossib*le for somebody to come back from Purgatory because it happens after you are judged.*
 
Justy90 said:
I am well aware of apocryphal writings that are used by Catholics to try and justify Purgatory’s existence. The problem is that Purgatory isn’t even mentioned by Jesus in the Gospels nor is it shown in any other parts of Scripture.
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The 7 books that Protestamt Reformers threw out of the OT aren’t apochryphal.
They were in the Septuagint and studied by Jesus and the Apostles. There are dozens of examples of this in the NT. Here are but a few:
**Matt. 1:23 / Isaiah 7:14, ****Matt. 3:3; Mark 1:3; John 1:23 / Isaiah 40:3, ****Luke 3:5-6 / Isaiah 40:4-5, ****John 6:31 / Psalm 78:24, ****Mark 7:6-8 – Jesus quotes Isaiah 29:13, ****Acts 2:19 / Joel 2:30, ****Acts 2:25-26 / Psalm 16:8, ****Acts 4:26 / Psalm 2:1, ****Acts 7:14 / Gen. 46:27; Deut. 10:22, ****Rom. 2:24 / Isaiah 52:5, **Rom. 3:4 / Psalm 51:4.

As for the doctrine of Purgatory not being taught in the NT - that is false. It is implicitly taught - as is the doctrine of the Trinity and the Hypostatic Union of Jesus:

Matt. 5:25-26
**Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. **

Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.
(This is not heaven or hell - what IS it?)

Matt. 12:32
**And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
**(This is not heaven or hell - what IS it?)

Matt. 18:32-35
**His master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you your entire debt because you begged me to. **
**Should you not have had pity on your fellow servant, as I had pity on you?’ **
Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt.

So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart."
(This is not heaven or hell - what IS it?)

Luke 12:58-59
**If you are to go with your opponent before a magistrate, make an effort to settle the matter on the way; otherwise your opponent will turn you over to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the constable, and the constable throw you into prison. **
I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny."
(This is not heaven or hell - what IS it?)

1 Cor. 3:12-15
**If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. ****If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. **
**But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved (not already saved), but only as through fire.
**(This is not heaven or hell - what IS it?)
 
=Reuben J;5891095]It should be acceptable Jon. There is a little problem there when you mention instantaneous because it is as if you’re defining the duration in purgatory. Well, I thought you did not. And yes, the expiation is instantaneous because once a person dies he has to go somewhere, doesn’t he? 🙂
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As long as we don’t try to speculate how long the duration is, and whether one goes to purgatory or straight to heaven. These we wouldn’t know.
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I agree, Rueben… I should not have included the word instantaneous.
This, I think, was not what was commonly thought of as Purgatory at the time of the Reformation, am I correct? ISTM this, and related indulgences of the time, may be the cause of the rejection of Purgatory.

Jon

PS Thanks.
 
The_Way said:
Would anybody care to answer my original question?

God bless,
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As Purgatory always leads to Heaven, the question could be asked irrespective of Purgatory. That said, prayers for the dead like any other prayers are heard by our Father in Heaven. We have no way of knowing the effect of these intercessory prayers on those who have past, but we certainly know the effect they have on the living, giving comfort in a time of great grief and sadness.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
As Purgatory always leads to Heaven, the question could be asked irrespective of Purgatory. That said, prayers for the dead like any other prayers are heard by our Father in Heaven. We have no way of knowing the effect of these intercessory prayers on those who have past, but we certainly know the effect they have on the living, giving comfort in a time of great grief and sadness.

Jon
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What’s the point of praying for the dead when their time is up? According to Protestants they will either go to Heaven or Hell so what good would prayers do?

God bless,
 
The_Way said:
What’s the point of praying for the dead when their time is up? According to Protestants they will either go to Heaven or Hell so what good would prayers do?

God bless,
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Same question to you, since we both believe in praying for the dead.
EDIT: Catholics also believe the dead go either to Heaven or Hell. Correct?
Purgatory is irrelevent to that point, as all who “visit” Purgatory go to Heaven.

As I said above,
…prayers for the dead like any other prayers are heard by our Father in Heaven. We have no way of knowing the effect of these intercessory prayers on those who have past, but we certainly know the effect they have on the living, giving comfort in a time of great grief and sadness.
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But if the question has something to do with those in Purgatory, they are all going to heaven, regardless of our prayers. So, the issue is the same.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Same question to you, since we both believe in praying for the dead.
EDIT: Catholics also believe the dead go either to Heaven or Hell. Correct?
Purgatory is irrelevent to that point, as all who “visit” Purgatory go to Heaven.

As I said above,

But if the question has something to do with those in Purgatory, they are all going to heaven, regardless of our prayers. So, the issue is the same.

Jon
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Well one of the reasons why we pray for the dead is for the holy souls in Purgatory that God may have mercy on them by shortening their time which all the more manifests the doctrine of Purgatory.

God bless,
 
The_Way said:
Well one of the reasons why we pray for the dead is for the holy souls in Purgatory that God may have mercy on them by shortening their time which all the more manifests the doctrine of Purgatory.

God bless,
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I’d be interested in what you think about the exchange ReubenJ and I had regarding the “time” in Purgatory (posts 32 and 33), as well as the quote from Father Tavard earlier:
Father Tavard showed how purgatory has been understood by Catholics as both a place of punishment and a state of cleansing, perhaps even momentary, at the time of death. Among the mystics, the latter image has greater prominence inasmuch as final purgation means an encounter with the “fire” of divine love which removes the effects of sin on the human person.
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usccb.org/comm/archives/2006/06-212.shtml
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If one’s stay in Purgatory is momentary, as ReubenJ and Father Tavard allow for, we are back to where we were started, that prayers for the dead are for those who are either headed to heaven or Hell. Based on what I posted to you above, I see no problem with it.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
If one’s stay in Purgatory is momentary, as ReubenJ and Father Tavard allow for, we are back to where we were started, that prayers for the dead are for those who are either headed to heaven or Hell. Based on what I posted to you above, I see no problem with it.

Jon
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**I don’t really understand your point. Prayers for the dead are intended for those who are in Purgatory. ALL those in Purgatory - be it a place or a process - eventually make it to heaven. ****Those headed to hell are beyond our intercession.
Of course - it is not for us to know here on earth who is condemned to hell.
 
elvisman said:
I don’t really understand your point. Prayers for the dead are intended for those who are in Purgatory. ALL those in Purgatory - be it a place or a process - eventually make it to heaven. **Those headed to hell are *beyond ***our intercession.
Of course - it is not for us to know here on earth who is condemned to hell.
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The question, elvisman, to me was, why would Protestants pray for the dead, when they are either going to Heaven or to Hell. My response was, that is also true, even if there is a Purgatory. Those visiting Purgatory are going to Heaven. Now, if, as Father Tavard reports, Purgatory may be a momentary cleansing, prayers for those momentarily visiting Purgatory are equally as valuable, no more and no less, as prayers offered by Protestants who claim no Purgatory.
It is your last 2 sentences that, to me, are important. And my response is we do not, can not, know the effect of our intercessions for loved ones. It is also clear that praying for loved ones brings a sense of comfort during a time of grief.

Hope I was clearer,
Jon
 
The following scripture may be pertinent to [the development of] the concept of purgatory.

Daniel 11:
31: And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32: And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33: And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34: Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35: And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
 
…also,

Micah 7:

7: Therefore I will look unto the LORD; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me.
8: Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy: when I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the LORD shall be a light unto me.
9: I will bear the indignation of the LORD, because I have sinned against him, until he plead my cause, and execute judgment for me: he will bring me forth to the light, and I shall behold his righteousness.
 
JonNC said:
The question, elvisman, to me was, why would Protestants pray for the dead, when they are either going to Heaven or to Hell. My response was, that is also true, even if there is a Purgatory. Those visiting Purgatory are going to Heaven. Now, if, as Father Tavard reports, Purgatory may be a momentary cleansing, prayers for those momentarily visiting Purgatory are equally as valuable, no more and no less, as prayers offered by Protestants who claim no Purgatory.
It is your last 2 sentences that, to me, are important. And my response is we do not, can not, know the effect of our intercessions for loved ones. It is also clear that praying for loved ones brings a sense of comfort during a time of grief.

Hope I was clearer,
Jon
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Jon, forgive me if I interrupt. I saw I contributed to this thread earlier on from the sign on the main page but have no idea what I said. The last page caught my attention and I thought I would comment. I agree that Protestants have nothing to do with the deads if they believe that the deads either go to hell or heaven.

When Catholic pray for the souls in purgatory it is not necessary to change anything. Most lay Catholics think that by praying to the souls in purgatory it will hasten their stay there for them to go to heaven. That might be true based on the principle that God listens to our prayer but act according to his will though sometimes out of love and compassion for his children he may bends the rule slightly without having to contradict himself, another more important aspect of praying to the deads is communion.

Praying for the deads arise from Catholic doctrine that both the livings and the deads are one big community/family of God. Praying for each other does not have to be anything but when we pray for each other we demonstrate the ties, closeness, love and as people who care for each other. That would be enough reason to pray for our love ones who have departed. Another aspect of praying which is often obscured by the more obvious issue is blessing. We are blessed when we pray like we are blessed when we show love or love like how the Lord loves. The blessing usually is spiritual in nature, perhaps for our growth, we can never tell, except for the fact we are asked to pray.

So actually it is about praying, other things that arise from it is a bonus.
 
Well, Jon, I just went through your earlier posts. I think in essence you were saying what I said in the above post. Sorry for the repetition.

God bless.
 
Ranp said:
Scripture does tell of Purgatory. I don’t have the actual quote but I think Purgatory is referred to in one or more of the books of Maccabees. This is probably one of the reasons the Maccabees books were not include in the King James bible. Therefore, get thee a Catholic bible if you want to read about Purgatory.
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Actually, the 1611 King James bible **included **the Apocrypha. Most don’t realize that. The Apocrypha was not “officially” removed until 1885 by the Archbishop of Canterbury.

I’ve always been curious about purgatory myself. It does seem there are several destinations for the dead. I believe there is a “land of the dead”. The Hebrew sheol is an “abode of the dead”. It is a lot like the Greek concept of Hades, an underworld for the dead.

I thought Gehenna was were the really evil ones go to be tortured/destroyed. It is a place name, meaning the “valley of Hinnom,”, it’s where they burned trash and dumped dead animals. It was already considered unclean because it was thought to be the place where children were sacrificed to the pagan god Molech.

Matthew 23:33, “Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of gehenna?”

For Catholics, I wonder if in purgatory if God can look on them?

As a little kid I wanted to know who the forgotten dead were in the Psalms. So was curious. The word there was sheol. Here is an example:

Psalm 88

4 I am counted with those who go down to the pit;
I am like a man who has no strength,
5 Adrift among the dead,
Like the slain who lie in the grave,
Whom You remember no more,
And who are cut off from Your hand.

6 You have laid me in the lowest pit,
In darkness, in the depths.
7 Your wrath lies heavy upon me,
And You have afflicted me with all Your waves. Selah
8 You have put away my acquaintances far from me;
You have made me an abomination to them;
I am shut up, and I cannot get out;
9 My eye wastes away because of affliction.

10 Will You work wonders for the dead?
Shall the dead arise and praise You? Selah
…

16 Your fierce wrath has gone over me;
Your terrors have cut me off.
17 They came around me all day long like water;
They engulfed me altogether.
18 Loved one and friend You have put far from me,
And my acquaintances into darkness.

PSALMS 6:
5For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

I do think of the weirdest things at times. For example, since God created us with a spoken word, we began first as a thought in the mind of God. Since God can do anything, can he forget us? And if so would that be as if we never existed? I think of it in modern terms, Control, alt, delete.

Or maybe God only forgets and we remember. So being a forgotten dead would be a form of hell I suppose.

And I wonder about the sleeping dead. Perhaps to them there is no sense of lost time, since they are unaware and are awakened to be judged.

Which makes me think about sleep. Do the sleeping dead dream? If so, can the soul “sleepwalk”?

This is the stuff that keeps me up at night sometimes because I can’t shut it off. LOL
 
RuthErickson said:
Has anyone come back from the dead with a story of Purgatory? What is the difference of Purgatory and Hell? I have been doing some reading on Purgatory and it seems like a scary place. Thank you.
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The main body of Christians have always believed in the existence of a place between Heaven and Hell where souls go to be punished for lesser sins and repay the debt of temporal punishment for sins which have been forgiven. In Revelations it says that no one shall enter Heaven with a stain of sin on them, and even in death we have sin on us, so for those who have really tried to do God’s will, but still with the stain of sin on us, where are we to go? So our Fathers of the church, said that there is a place where we have to be purified from this stain, before we enter heaven. So go to 2 Kings or 2 Samuel 12:13-14; 1 Cor 3:15; Heb 12:23; Matt. 5:26; Matt. 12:36, and also 2 Machabees 12:46.
It also says that we should pray for the dead.
Monica24
 
JonNC said:
The question, elvisman, to me was, why would Protestants pray for the dead, when they are either going to Heaven or to Hell. My response was, that is also true, even if there is a Purgatory. Those visiting Purgatory are going to Heaven. Now, if, as Father Tavard reports, Purgatory may be a momentary cleansing, prayers for those momentarily visiting Purgatory are equally as valuable, no more and no less, as prayers offered by Protestants who claim no Purgatory.
It is your last 2 sentences that, to me, are important. And my response is we do not, can not, know the effect of our intercessions for loved ones. It is also clear that praying for loved ones brings a sense of comfort during a time of grief.

Hope I was clearer,

Jon
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You also need to think, where did Jesus go before he rose from the dead. he went to the dead who were waiting for him, those who had died way before Jesus was born and when he went into heaven. He went to them to bring them to heaven, and to get them who loved god, they needed to see Jesus too. They were waiting for him so they could hear his voice before they went home to heaven. so yes there is a purgatory per se. and everyone needs prayer, even the dead
Monica24
 
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