Purgatory and the thief on the cross?

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How does the doctrine of purgatory square with the thief on the cross making a confession of faith at the hour of his death and given entrance into paradise that very day?

And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise Luke 23
 
Almost_convert said:
How does the doctrine of purgatory square with the thief on the cross making a confession of faith at the hour of his death and given entrance into paradise that very day?

And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise Luke 23
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I’m not an expert, but from what I understand, it is possible for a person to be purified on earth, and not have to be purified in purgatory before entering heaven. My thought would be that the suffering of being crucified was sort of a “purgatory” or purification for the good thief.
 
Well, one thing to mention is the placement of the last comma. There is much debate as to whether the translation is actually “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise” or “Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise”, which has slightly different meanings in regards to ‘today’. The first one meaning that on that day, he would be in paradise, and the second meaning that Jesus said that on that day.

Also, what you have to remember about purgatory is that it is a purification process for us to reach heaven. This verse says nothing about the thief immediately going to heaven after death, so he could have made a pit stop in purgatory before he made it to heaven. Also, even though we have an indication of some kind of “time” when going through purgatory, there is no indication that it is in line with time on earth, just as time in heaven isn’t necessarily the same as here on earth.

There is also debate about what is meant by paradise, whether that is heaven, or whether it refers to Abraham’s Bosom, as that is where Jesus when after his own death to preach to those who resided there and bring them to heaven.

Just some thoughts.
 
My understanding is when someone is baptized they are cleansed of all sin and the temporal punishment for sin. If they die before they have venial sin they go straight to heaven. Although the thief was most probably not baptized on the cross in a physical sense, he certainly had a baptism of desire.

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Lion777 said:
My understanding is when someone is baptized they are cleansed of all sin and the temporal punishment for sin. If they die before they have venial sin they go straight to heaven. Although the thief was most probably not baptized on the cross in a physical sense, he certainly had a baptism of desire.

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That is also true. If someone dies right after being baptized and didn’t have the chance to sin, they would go straight to heaven. In addition to that, if someone doesn’t have the opportunity to be baptized in the normal method, but recognizes the necessity of it, and has faith in Jesus Christ, he can receive baptism of desire.
 
Almost_convert said:
How does the doctrine of purgatory square with the thief on the cross making a confession of faith at the hour of his death and given entrance into paradise that very day?

And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise Luke 23
Click to expand...
The key is the word paradise…what did paradise meant to the Jews of the time and what does paradise mean to you today?

newadvent.org/cathen/01055a.htm

In the Holy Bible, the expression “the Bosom of Abraham” is found only in two verses of St. Luke’s Gospel (16:22-23). It occurs in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus the imagery of which is plainly drawn from the popular representations of the unseen world of the dead which were current in Our Lord’s time. According to the Jewish conceptions of that day, the souls of the dead were gathered into a general tarrying-place the Sheol of the Old Testament literature, and the Hades of the New Testament writings (cf. Luke 16:22; in the Greek 16:23). A local discrimination, however, existed among them, according to their deeds during their mortal life. In the unseen world of the dead the souls of the righteous occupied an abode or compartment of their own which was distinctly separated by a wall or a chasm from the abode or compartment to which the souls of the wicked were consigned. The latter was a place of torments usually spoken of as Gehenna (cf. Matthew 5:29, 30; 18:9; Mark 9:42 sqq. in the Latin Vulgate) — the other, a place of bliss and security known under the names of “Paradise” (cf. Luke 23:43) and “the Bosom of Abraham” (Luke 16:22-23).

There are icons that have been shared here by some…where St. Dismas is shown in a depiction of Abraham’s Bosom…which is where he most likely went.
 
I would think that if Jesus said you’ll be with Him in Heaven today, then you’ll be with Him in Heaven today. If Jesus can’t bend a rule, then who can? And don’t you think there was an implied forgiveness of the thief’s sin in that statement from Christ? That alone should get him through the gates, right? 🤷
 
Paradise is not heaven. Pablope has it right. As well, the gates of heaven were not opened inasmuch as Jesus had not yet ascended. A clue is found in 1 Peter 3:19-20 and a few lines later in 1 Peter 4:6.

Jesus descended to the abode of the dead and preached the Gospel to them for their ultimate salvation. The good thief was in the abode of the dead along with Jesus.
 
Almost_convert said:
How does the doctrine of purgatory square with the thief on the cross making a confession of faith at the hour of his death and given entrance into paradise that very day?

And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise Luke 23
Click to expand...
I’m not sure how it doesn’t square. The doctrine of purgatory doesn’t say all souls must go there, it says souls un need of purgation may go there. Jesus, who is himself the judge, judged his soil was ready for paradise, so that is where he went. How blessed!
 
Almost_convert said:
How does the doctrine of purgatory square with the thief on the cross making a confession of faith at the hour of his death and given entrance into paradise that very day?
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It doesn’t contradict the doctrine of purgatory. Although, in the past, the traditional way to talk about purgatory in terms of years or days, that’s not what purgatory is all about. Rather, it’s about a process of purgation – that is, it’s about getting rid of all our imperfections (the temporal effects of sin that has already been forgiven) – and so, we don’t really know anything about the ‘length of time’ it takes, or even if there’s anything like ‘time’ associated with it at all.

And so, there’s nothing contradictory about the fact that the good thief would be with Jesus in paradise ‘today’.
 
bzkoss236 said:
Well, one thing to mention is the placement of the last comma.

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Original copies of the Bible had no punctuation.
We seem to be forgetting one thing. This was a promise from Jesus. He is Jesus, and can do what ever he wants. If he says there will be no purgatory for you. Then there will be none for you.
 
latin_rite said:
Original copies of the Bible had no punctuation.
We seem to be forgetting one thing. This was a promise from Jesus. He is Jesus, and can do what ever he wants. If he says there will be no purgatory for you. Then there will be none for you.
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Hence why there is debate about the translation
 
I tend to think of it very simply. Either 1, we do not completely understand the meaning and the thief does not go straight to heaven, or 2. Jesus decided that in this case, the normal rules would not apply. Certainly God is not bound by rules, laws, customs or anything else. If He decides that an exception is needed/warranted, He makes an exception.
 
CatholicGeek1 said:
I tend to think of it very simply. Either 1, we do not completely understand the meaning and the thief does not go straight to heaven, or 2. Jesus decided that in this case, the normal rules would not apply. Certainly God is not bound by rules, laws, customs or anything else. If He decides that an exception is needed/warranted, He makes an exception.
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I would not hold to this, this paints God as being wishy washy as it were. There is a clear doctrine which describes how the good thief was saved. Someone linked earlier an article which does accurately describe the doctrine.

Here a baptism of desire applies. By showing perfect contrition, with fully knowlege of the weight of his sin (at the very least that lead him to the cross) and by calling upon Jesus in repentance to forgive him, the good thief was saved.

God set the rules, he doesn’t really make exceptions to them. His rule is good, and just.
 
crazzeto said:
God set the rules, he doesn’t really make exceptions to them. His rule is good, and just.
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At the time of the crucifixion, the rule for baptism was not yet made. That came on the day of the ascension, The thief may have been a circumcised Jew so met all the requirements for ‘Abraham’s bosom’.
 
Turn the question around. Did Jesus go to Heaven on Good Friday? Nope. In fact, Jesus didn’t go back to Heaven until the Ascension, which was 40 days after Easter.

So either “paradise” means something other than Heaven, or the punctuation is off.
 
crazzeto said:
God set the rules, he doesn’t really make exceptions to them. His rule is good, and just.
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God sets the rules for US. They are NOT rules for Him. If He chooses to do something outside the rules He sets for us, He is not violating the rules. They don’t apply to Him. The only thing that applies to God are the promises He has made. If we follow the rules He set for us, He must and will uphold His promises. But that does not mean that He can’t save someone outside the rules for us.
 
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