Purgatory Clarification

[pablope]

OK. Let’s forget the traffic ticket analogy. It’s getting a lot more complex than I intended.

Let’s say I’ve robbed a convenience store. I get caught and convicted but my mother, bless her soul, steps in and says she’ll do the time for me and the judge OKs it. How does that make me a law-abiding citizen?

When does a prisoner become a law abiding citizen? When he has completely served the time in prison that he is sentenced to.

You will not be a law abiding citizen until the time in prison is served by your mother.

You may be free to roam around but the mark of the crime remains in your person until the time is completely served…you will not be totally free until the time in prison is completely served.

 

[Todd977]

Todd977>>Here’s how I look at it: A heaven-bound soul’s purification in Purgatory from any remaining temporal consequences of his sins is accomplished by a participation in the great loving sacrifice on their behalf of Jesus Christ on the Cross. It makes sense to me that adding our own small loving sacrifices for a soul to the great loving sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross might hasten that soul’s purification.<<
That still doesn’t answer my question about how “taking the heat,” so to speak, for a soul in Purgatory actually cleanses them.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1472, describes the temporal consequences due to sin as “unhealthy attachment to creatures” and it is these unhealthy attachments “which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory.” The soul that is free of these unhealthy attachments at the time of death flies unhindered to heaven. The soul that still has these unhealthy attachments to creatures at the time of death is prevented from flying to heaven, as a balloon is prevented from flying into the sky by chains that anchor it to the ground until such time as the chains are severed. The soul’s unhealthy attachments to creatures are eventually severed by the fires of Purgatory, as the flame of a blowtorch when applied to chains anchoring a balloon would eventually burn through and severe them.

Loving sacrifice fuels the fires of Purgatory. The principal and necessary loving sacrifice that fuels the fires of Purgatory is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross. Jesus’ sacrifice on the Cross alone is sufficient to eventually severe a soul’s unhealthy attachments to creatures. However, as members of the Body of Christ, our small loving sacrifices on a soul’s behalf can also be added to the great loving sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross to hasten the process of severing the soul’s unhealthy attachments in Purgatory, as adding more fuel to the flame of a blowtorch creates a hotter flame capable of burning through and severing more quickly the chains anchoring a balloon to the ground.

 

[Todd977]

Here’s another analogy…

Purgatory can also be regarded as a spiritual debtors prison where a heaven-bound soul remains until its temporal debt due to sin is paid off to “the last penny.” (Matt 5:26) Jesus Christ has agreed to pay off the soul’s temporal debt in Purgatory over time at a fixed rate by applying the currency of his great loving sacrifice on the Cross. As members of the Body of Christ on earth, we can hasten paying off a soul’s temporal debt by adding our small loving sacrifices on its behalf to the great loving sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.

 

[garysibio]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1472, describes the temporal consequences due to sin as “unhealthy attachment to creatures” and it is these unhealthy attachments “which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory.” The soul that is free of these unhealthy attachments at the time of death flies unhindered to heaven. The soul that still has these unhealthy attachments to creatures at the time of death is prevented from flying to heaven, as a balloon is prevented from flying into the sky by chains that anchor it to the ground until such time as the chains are severed. The soul’s unhealthy attachments to creatures are eventually severed by the fires of Purgatory, as the flame of a blowtorch when applied to chains anchoring a balloon would eventually burn through and severe them.

Loving sacrifice fuels the fires of Purgatory. The principal and necessary loving sacrifice that fuels the fires of Purgatory is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross. Jesus’ sacrifice on the Cross alone is sufficient to eventually severe a soul’s unhealthy attachments to creatures. However, as members of the Body of Christ, our small loving sacrifices on a soul’s behalf can also be added to the great loving sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross to hasten the process of severing the soul’s unhealthy attachments in Purgatory, as adding more fuel to the flame of a blowtorch creates a hotter flame capable of burning through and severing more quickly the chains anchoring a balloon to the ground.

Maybe I’m missing your point but I still don’t see how that answers my question. I can accept that it is an unhealthy attachment to creatures but I would also think it’s an unhealthy attachment to things as well. Neither answers the question, “How does someoone else praying for a soul in Purgatory make a real difference in that soul?” Using what you said, “If I pray for someone in Purgatory, how do they become less attached in an unhealthy way?”

 

[garysibio]

Here’s another analogy…

Purgatory can also be regarded as a spiritual debtors prison where a heaven-bound soul remains until its temporal debt due to sin is paid off to “the last penny.” (Matt 5:26) Jesus Christ has agreed to pay off the soul’s temporal debt in Purgatory over time at a fixed rate by applying the currency of his great loving sacrifice on the Cross. As members of the Body of Christ on earth, we can hasten paying off a soul’s temporal debt by adding our small loving sacrifices on its behalf to the great loving sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.

If that’s the case, why the fires of Purgatory? Obviously grace plays a role but the fores must be there for a reason. Another verse on the subject of Purgatory, 1 Cor 3:15, says, “If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” It seems the soul in Purgatory has to go through the process. How can our prayers help?

 

[pablope]

If that’s the case, why the fires of Purgatory? Obviously grace plays a role but the fores must be there for a reason. Another verse on the subject of Purgatory, 1 Cor 3:15, says, “If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” It seems the soul in Purgatory has to go through the process. How can our prayers help?

catholiceducation.org/article…cs/ap0091.html

*That is why Paul says in Colossians 1:24 something that used to baffle me, Colossians 1:24, “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake.” Masochist? No. In a sense, he is the opportunist. He is the one who sees the ultimate rewards. “I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of His body that is the Church.”

It means that Christ’s suffering and death must be reproduced and filled up in the Church and if some are slacking off, that means others must become more like victim-souls, willing to bear a greater burden, willing to shoulder with love, as Galatians 5 speaks about the love, “Love bears one another’s burdens.” We do that just as 1st John 5 speaks about how we can pray for others and get them back on track after their venial sins have been committed. So likewise we can suffer on behalf of others. That’s what fathers and mothers do all the time. And God calls us to do that in the supernatural family, as well, on behalf of our brothers and sisters and our spiritual children, as well. That’s what Paul takes for granted when he makes such an outlandish statement. Outlandish only for those who do not recognize the essential need for suffering.*

Why do this, you will ask?

*The fact is, if we are truly sorry, we will see the need and the propriety for restitution. Not just monetary, physical restitution for broken windows, but psychical, spiritual restitution for broken souls.

God’s love is. It gives of itself. God’s whole essence is self-donation and He calls us to be imitators of God, Paul says. We imitate God when we become self- donators, self-givers and you can’t do that as finite creatures without self-sacrifice, and you can’t sacrifice self without pain. You can’t love without sacrifice.

In this earth the Church Militant acquires merits, not merits in addition to Christ, but Christ’s merit bestowed in filling us up, bestowed upon us. When God crowns our works, He is only crowning His own achievements. When He rewards our works, He is only crowning His own work in us through the Holy Spirit, the life of Christ being lived out in us.*

 

[JonathonofOhio]

I must be missing something about Purgatory. I hope someone here can explain it…
The church also teaches that the church militant can shorten the time in Purgatory - I know, time is different after death - by prayers, works of mercy, etc. Here’s my problem. If a person is in Purgatory because they need to be purified by the cleansing fire, how does someone on Earth doing something cleanse someone in Purgatory?

To give a more concrete example, if I drive too fast and get a ticket, how does someone paying my ticket cleanse me from being a lead-foot? It almost seems counter-productive.

I hope my question is clear.

This is what the Apostle Paul teaches us in 1 Corinthians 3…

But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus

He warns us that there is no other way for salvation. All acts of charity, of love, not done in Christ are not built on a solid foundation and will be lost (they are not purified by the Blood of Christ).

Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

He compares the types of work with materials. The good works are things that don’t burn so easily, and the bad works (sins) are materials that burn up. Wood, more dense, represents the heavier sins, while the hay and stubble represent the lesser sins that burn up quickly in a fire. All of these are revealed by the light of the Lord, which is like a cleansing fire, and the bad works are burned up while the good works, which are pleasing to the Lord, remain.

If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

And here is what you are not understanding: That purgatory is about suffering loss, and being saved-- not like a prison or a fine. You see, the person may have a lot of wood and hay, and have little gold and silver, but even so, all the wood and hay is burned up and what is left are the purified precious good works, the gold and silver.

While in this ‘state’, there is no time. It is all about suffering loss and being tested and found worthy. If a man has no gold and silver he suffers complete loss (hell, the second death). If a man has little gold and silver (very few good works), he suffers a great loss but is still saved. If a man has less wood and hay and more silver and gold, he suffers less.

So what I’m trying to explain to you is this: When we make offerings for the souls in purgatory, it is not about paying someone’s way out quicker, it’s about helping them suffer less. By offering up prayers and charity for the souls in purgatory, we are basically adding to their gold and silver so that we might lessen their loss (and, therefore, their suffering). Because we can not comprehend eternity, we put this in terms of time and say that we ‘lessen their time in purgatory’, because in this life we relate suffering with time.

 

[po18guy]

If that’s the case, why the fires of Purgatory? Obviously grace plays a role but the fores must be there for a reason. Another verse on the subject of Purgatory, 1 Cor 3:15, says, “If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” It seems the soul in Purgatory has to go through the process. How can our prayers help?

Because it is a situation in which God’s unfathomable and inexplicable mercy may be brought to bear. As well, we are all parts of Christ’s mystical Body and one part is interconnected to all other parts, whether on earth, in purgatory, or in heaven. Thus, we each may suffer along with those being purged, or receive the benefit of their prayers. It is mysterious and we will not fully comprehend it even after we experience it.

 

[SnakeUSMC]

If you read Macc 2, when a collection was taken up, for prayers for the departed, 'THAT THEY MAY BE LOSE FROM THEIR SINS!"

This is the punishment due to our sins,

1. Our sins have been forgiven
2. We still have a punishment because we committed them
3. We must serve out our sentence to clean us of the “rust” of sin.

To put this in a layman’s frame.

1. You Speed
2. Receive a ticket
3. Go before a judge
4. He finds you GUILTY
5. He forgives your guilt but you must STILL PAY THE FINE or go to jail.
6. A friend has pity on you
7. He knows you do not have the money to pay the fine
8. He intercedes (Aramaic and biblical Hebrew intersession = pagan which means to Pray or to Ask) by giving the court money
   9, The Fine is paid by your friend, and you are set free

Read archive.org/details/purgatory00scho

Excellent thesis pertaining to Purgatory

 

[JonathonofOhio]

Here’s another analogy…

Purgatory can also be regarded as a spiritual debtors prison where a heaven-bound soul remains until its temporal debt due to sin is paid off to “the last penny.” (Matt 5:26) Jesus Christ has agreed to pay off the soul’s temporal debt in Purgatory over time at a fixed rate by applying the currency of his great loving sacrifice on the Cross. As members of the Body of Christ on earth, we can hasten paying off a soul’s temporal debt by adding our small loving sacrifices on its behalf to the great loving sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.

Actually, though some Church Fathers (Cyprian, Ambrose, and Origen) indicated that Jesus was referring to Purgatory, I tend to agree with Augustine that Matthew 5:26 is about being thrown into Hell. If you look at the other teachings in that same chapter, and the fact that debtors prisons were ones that you didn’t ever actually get out of, because there was no way for you pay the debt since you were in prison, it becomes clear that it’s Hell he’s referring to, not Purgatory.

Also, Peter wrote that Jesus, after dying, went to preach to the souls in prison. We profess that he descended into Hell in the creed we recite at every mass, and that further reinforces the idea that Jesus was talking about reconciling with others before you die so that you don’t end up in hell, where you won’t get out.

 

[po18guy]

Actually, though some Church Fathers (Cyprian, Ambrose, and Origen) indicated that Jesus was referring to Purgatory, I tend to agree with Augustine that Matthew 5:26 is about being thrown into Hell. If you look at the other teachings in that same chapter, and the fact that debtors prisons were ones that you didn’t ever actually get out of, because there was no way for you pay the debt since you were in prison, it becomes clear that it’s Hell he’s referring to, not Purgatory.

Hell is eternal punishment. How can one get out? In those days, they had debtor’s prison, where you indeed did not get out until you paid every penny.

Also, Peter wrote that Jesus, after dying, went to preach to the souls in prison. We profess that he descended into Hell in the creed we recite at every mass, and that further reinforces the idea that Jesus was talking about reconciling with others before you die so that you don’t end up in hell, where you won’t get out.

This was sheol, or the abode of the dead - not the hell of the damned.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

Hell is eternal punishment. How can one get out? In those days, they had debtor’s prison, where you indeed did not get out until you paid every penny.
This was sheol, or the abode of the dead - not the hell of the damned.

That’s the point: you didn’t get out of a debtors prison unless a family member or a friend came along and paid the debt for you to get you out. This is why Jesus had to come and die for our sins: to pay our debt of sin for us, because we could not pay it ourselves-- he is the only one that could do this for us, and no one else.

This payment enables us to be saved, but if we are unwilling to reconcile with our own brother, then we risk being thrown into prison (hell), where you won’t get out until you pay every last cent (but since you can’t pay it, you aren’t getting out). In other words: though you are in good standing with the judge (God), you owe your brother a debt (you sinned against him). Your brother (that sin) goes before the judge (God), and the judge rules you owe a debt, but are unable to pay it (you failed to reconcile yourself with your brother). You are then thrown into debtors prison (hell) where you don’t get out, because there is no way out since you are unable to pay the debt (in terms of ancient debtors prisons, when you went to prison, it was too late to pay the debt yourself).

When we try to make this passage all about Purgatory it loses an important lesson here: that Jesus emphasizes (see the Lord’s prayer) how important it is to love each other and forgive each other. So important it is, that even though he came and paid our debt of sin, if you incur a debt against your brother, you risk being thrown into hell where you will not get out. The fact that he says, “until you pay the last cent” (i.e. the smallest amount) is the clue that what he is saying is “you will not get out, because paying this debt is impossible when you are in prison, therefore take care of it before you go before the judge.”

 

[JonathonofOhio]

This was sheol, or the abode of the dead - not the hell of the damned.

Yes, Sheol is the Jewish term for the abode of dead. However, the place of torment and what is called The Bosom of Abraham were located in the same vicinity, as indicated by Jesus when he tells the story of the rich man and Lazarus. The Bosom of Abraham is not Purgatory, if that is what you are thinking. Today, we do not use the term “Sheol”, but we use the term “Hell” to describe the entire place.

Whether you are in the place of torment or the place called the Bosom of Abraham you are still in Hell (it is a prison), because you are eternally separated from God. In another parable, as well as the one of the story of Lazarus, Jesus indicates that there are different degrees of suffering in Hell. Lazarus did not suffer at all, but the rich man did so greatly. Neither one, however, were in Heaven since Jesus had not yet come.

Since Lazarus was not suffering, but was being comforted, he was not in Purgatory. He was not going through any process. However, he was in Hell (separated from God) where all souls went until after the Resurrection, since no one could pay the debt of sin but Christ.

 

[SnakeUSMC]

1. Where in the Bible is Purgatory found?
2. Is Purgatory mentioned by Name in the Holy Scriptures?
3. If it IS mentioned by NAME, why don’t Protestants believe in it?
4. How many times is Purgatory mentioned by name?

To answer the above questions

1. Old Testament
2. Yes
3. They do not know the progression of LANGUAGES
4. 64 times

So now I proceed and you may copy and give to your protestant friends

Many cases in scripture where infallibly is pronounced when words were spoken are not understood clearly because we do not study languages today as before. Also many references to Purgatory by name Purgatory is mentioned in the Scriptures.

Let us start off with the word WATER. Everyone knows water what it is and the following are what water is described in different LANGUAGES.

WATER

English Water
German Wasser
French eau
Hebrew מים
Spanish agua
Chinese 水 Swhay
Japanese 水 Misu

So on and so on. Thus Water has not changed it’s formula H2O because of different languages. The different languages have name WATER with their own words, but WATER H2O REMAINS THE SAME!

I believe everyone will agree with the above statement.

The first language was Biblical Hebrew which morphed into Aramaic but had many of the same meanings. Aramaic is the language which Jesus Spoke. He did not speak in Greek as some would have you believe, nor did he speak in Latin, but used the common language Aramaic (He could have spoken in ANY language but scriptures always says His words in Aramaic when he spoke.)

The next language was Greek. The Gospel of Matthew was first written in Aramaic. How do we know? St Clement our Pope who was living at the time, in his letters which exist to this day, stated, the Gospel of Matthew was written in the tongue of the Hebrews. The language as I have already stated was Aramaic, not Greek or Latin.

The following language was Latin. The same Pope St. Diamaus 1 at the council of Rome 382 AD proclaimed under the guidance of the Holy Spirit which books were inspired and which were not in both the OLD and NEW TESTAMENTS. He declared the 72 book cannon which we have today.

St. Diamaus then charged Saint Jerome to translate the entire bible from Old Greek, Aramaic, Biblical Hebrew into Latin. St Jerome completed this task in the year 400 AD. That bible is called the Vulgate or the Common language of the people.

OUR next language which is a combination of Latin and German is called ENGLISH. So the line of languages is thus, Biblical Hebrew > Aramaic > Old Greek > Latin > English

 

[JonathonofOhio]

1. Where in the Bible is Purgatory found?
2. Is Purgatory mentioned by Name in the Holy Scriptures?
3. If it IS mentioned by NAME, why don’t Protestants believe in it?
4. How many times is Purgatory mentioned by name?

To answer the above questions

1. Old Testament
2. Yes
3. They do not know the progression of LANGUAGES
4. 64 times
   …

Forgive me, but I’m not seeing how this is answering the OP’s original question, or how this is adding to any answers provided for this particular topic. The existence of Purgatory and/or the origins of it were not originally called into question by the OP. OP was asking for clarification on something very specific in regards to Purgatory. While I, and I’m sure everyone here, appreciates your participation in the discussion, the OP came here looking for an answer to his question, not a series of questions he didn’t ask.

Your post seems to make an assumption that the OP is protestant. OP is catholic.

I’m only here participating because I found the question very interesting and it made me think about a few things. So you can imagine how frustrating it is when I come back and see a big long answer like this that doesn’t really add to the discussion I was participating in, but instead looks like some copy-pasted answer that you selected based only on a few keywords you saw in the post.

 

[po18guy]

When we try to make this passage all about Purgatory it loses an important lesson here: that Jesus emphasizes (see the Lord’s prayer) how important it is to love each other and forgive each other. So important it is, that even though he came and paid our debt of sin, if you incur a debt against your brother, you risk being thrown into hell where you will not get out. The fact that he says, “until you pay the last cent” (i.e. the smallest amount) is the clue that what he is saying is “you will not get out, because paying this debt is impossible when you are in prison, therefore take care of it before you go before the judge.”

Not trying to make this passage about purgatory. Jesus is incapable of deceiving or of being deceived. Thus, why would He intimate that one can get out of hell when indeed, one cannot?

 

[po18guy]

Yes, Sheol is the Jewish term for the abode of dead. However, the place of torment and what is called The Bosom of Abraham were located in the same vicinity, as indicated by Jesus when he tells the story of the rich man and Lazarus. The Bosom of Abraham is not Purgatory, if that is what you are thinking. Today, we do not use the term “Sheol”, but we use the term “Hell” to describe the entire place.

Whether you are in the place of torment or the place called the Bosom of Abraham you are still in Hell (it is a prison), because you are eternally separated from God. In another parable, as well as the one of the story of Lazarus, Jesus indicates that there are different degrees of suffering in Hell. Lazarus did not suffer at all, but the rich man did so greatly. Neither one, however, were in Heaven since Jesus had not yet come.

Since Lazarus was not suffering, but was being comforted, he was not in Purgatory. He was not going through any process. However, he was in Hell (separated from God) where all souls went until after the Resurrection, since no one could pay the debt of sin but Christ.

Can you post the sections from the catechism that teach this?

 

[SnakeUSMC]

JonathonofOhio

The original post inquired how does praying relieve the burden of Purgatory for someone else. In my first response, I answered his question using the analogy of a speeding ticket and some one else pays for your fine.

Later on the conversation turned to the existence of purgatory in an oblique manner. My response was curtailed because it was so long.

If you or anyone else on this net desire the full response write to me at hebijudo@hotmail.com and I shall relay the full missive

When a person is in Purgatory, there is no longer any desire to be attached to sin, None what so ever. There are two punishments, 1. One of the “loss” of being with God in Heaven, 2. The other physical fire, which burns away the “rust” of temporal punishment due to our sins.

There are 4 levels of Purgatory. The Lowest is the worst and much like Hell. The second still combining physical punishment and the loss of being with our Creator.

The third is MOSTLY a relief of the physical sufferings but still a greater loss knowing you are near but still have not achieve the state of total purity to enter Heaven

The 4th is reserved for religious.

These four levels have been documented by Doctors of our Church. You may wish to type in Doctor’s of the Roman Catholic Church concerning Purgatory. You will have at your disposal a bundle of information and not just conjector.

An EXCELLENT book on Purgatory is By Fr. E.X. Schouppe S.J. You can buy the hard copy OR you can go online and read the FREE copy. Google it. Fr Schouppe explains in detail what Purgatory is, and it is NOT an yearning for attachment to “creatures” or sins of this world, but the desire to rid ourselves of the “rust” of sin so we can be with God

Remember, NOTHING unclean can enter Heaven Rev

[Rev 21:27] But nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Read my first post and then write me for the second section of my second post

El Snake O

 

[JonathonofOhio]

Not trying to make this passage about purgatory. Jesus is incapable of deceiving or of being deceived. Thus, why would He intimate that one can get out of hell when indeed, one cannot?

As I have been saying all along: he did not imply that you can get out of hell. He is using metaphor to explain to the people that by not reconciling yourself with your brother, you will go to hell. He does this by comparing it to a debtors prison. As I have been saying, if you were thrown into a debtors prison during that time, you could not pay the debt and get out-- someone else had to pay it for you. That is why he says “you will not get out until you pay the last cent.”, because that was the point: that you won’t get out, because you cannot pay. Everyone knew this, and anyone who understands what debtors prisons were like back then, can see what the meaning of the passage is. It most likely has nothing to do with Purgatory. However, as I stated previously, some church fathers had the opinion that it was about Purgatory, but then you have Augustine who says it was about hell. All I am saying, is that I tend to agree with Augustine on this one, and I am explaining why. If you do not agree, that is fine.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

Can you post the sections from the catechism that teach this?

The Catholic encyclopedia is where I have found info on this subject…the Catechism doesn’t go into much detail, just states the doctrine of Purgatory and that is it. Here are some links.

newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

newadvent.org/cathen/01055a.htm

They have an article on Purgatory as well:

newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

My notion that it’s a process, not a place, is derived from some recent clarifications I had heard on the doctrine of Purgatory. Regardless, it doesn’t seem to me that souls in the Bosom of Abraham were going through a process of purification, but were at rest waiting for the coming of the Lord. I used to think as well that this was talking about Purgatory, but not anymore.