Purgatory for Protestants?

[Pup7]

I’m 44. I was a Methodist from age 15. I have never seen the KJV in a Methodist church, not that I’m a Methodist expert. And I am from the south as well. Just because they’re used in one place doesn’t mean they’re used everywhere.

The KJV was also not used by the Presbyterian church we were included in in Raleigh or at the chapel at the college I attended in the same city - so my understanding would be that it’s not their official copy either. This was in the early 1990s.

It’s not the official Bible of the Methodist Church, and it looks like it’s likely not for the Presbys either.

 

[lilypadrees]

Thanks for the info, pup7. My mother was Methodist like her mother. She says they always used the KJV Bible. I’ve been in a number of Methodist churches over the years, the most recent being a couple of years ago. And they were still using it at that time.

As for the Presbyterians, one of my closest friends is that denomination. She’s in her 70s, Presbyterian all her life. And she says they’ve always used the KJV.

Again, I can’t speak for where you live. But I’ll take your word for it that they aren’t using it there.

So I don’t know. Could be individual churches not using it. Or the pastor’s choice. But people saying the KJV Bible isn’t being used in Protestant churches anymore is definitely a new one.

 

[Pup7]

I don’t think we’re saying it’s not being used - I just think we’re saying it doesn’t have the official stamp of Protestantism on it as the only acceptable thing ever written.

Maybe it’s individual synods or regions (laughing because I can’t even remember the name used for the UMC, just the Presbys - my head is now stuffed with Catholic terminology ) that don’t use it?

I remember in my teens the ones in the pews were REALLY new, so that could’ve been a recent innovation in that area at the time. I was the secretary for the MYF for my region and didn’t see it anywhere around there.

It was the lack of the KJV in those places, coupled with the religion classes my school required (best classes I’ve ever taken, actually) that led me to read up on the whole translation thing - and I realized that for all my intelligence I’d been raised in a vacuum on that subject. I was amazed.

 

[steve-b]

1 Corinthians 3:10 Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble— 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day (no, @steve-b, that is not Sunday!) will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 1 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Why would you say that? I never said THAT day, in 1 Cor 3:10 was Sunday.

 

[lilypadrees]

I don’t know his level of expertise. But he is far more knowledgeable on the subject than I will ever be. I accept his word because he’s not the only one who has said these things. But he is the one I found out about Luther’s part in the removal of the books from.

As for your claim that he falsely accused Luther of murdering with his own hands, I don’t believe that for one minute. Nor have I found evidence of anyone else saying such a thing.

 

[GKMotley]

Protestants, like Anglicans, are motley (Anglicans are more so, of course). Generalizing about stuff is generally likely to be inaccurate, if stated in any sort of absolute terms. Which results in a return reference to the Bible my SBC Sunday School teacher father used. Revised Standard it was. And the class he taught (adult men) had bought one each RSV for their personal classroom use, with each class member’s name stamped in gold on the respective cover. These were kept in the classroom, by most members, who used nobody knows what for their personal use elsewhere (Dad used RSV everywhere, by choice, after it was published).

A few years later, when I won a Bible, for something spectacular I had done in my own SBC Sunday School class, my SS teacher gave me a leather bound, thumbnail indexed Bible with my name on it. KJV.

What this is pointing out is that protestants used and use a variety of Bibles. There are those who prefer KJV, for personal reasons (I’m one), and these reasons vary. Custom, literary appeal, familiarity, or a conviction that it is the best, for whatever best means. That is, except for the fringe cases of sola KJVists, an individual preference.

Of course, always keeping in mind that the concept “protestant” is a motley construct.

 

[steve-b]

Even scripture talks about suffering in that process.

mcq72:

with out brushing up on this, I think he said this occurs at the judgement after the resurrection, where our works in Christ are judged, and we suffer loss or gain reward accordingly, but all as a believer , and all in heaven.

We are judged the moment we die. We don’t wait for the Resurrection at the end of time to find out where we will spend eternity.

We have a perfect example given by Jesus, who does all the judging of every soul.

Lk 16:
19 “There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz′arus, full of sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment,

[comment]:
That’s as clear as it gets that immediately after death, we know where we will be spending eternity. As an aside, Abraham’s bosom isn’t heaven…yet.

[Jesus continues]
he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz′arus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz′arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz′arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.’”

That is clear, this is NOT talking about the period of final judgement and resurrection. The rich man’s family is still alive, while he is in torment.

At the end of time, (whenever that happens) and the resurrection of the body, body and soul are reunited (which could be billions of years from now) . If the soul has been in torment in hell, then they are now reunited with their body in hell,

Same for those in heaven. Souls in heaven are then reunited with their body.

Purgatory ceases to exist since there are no more births and deaths. At the end of time all souls that were in purgatory at that time, are now in heaven

 

[steido01]

As for your claim that he falsely accused Luther of murdering with his own hands, I don’t believe that for one minute. Nor have I found evidence of anyone else saying such a thing.

Believe it. During a 2010 call-in show, he said “Luther was racked with guilt… he apparently had killed somebody in a duel.”

I’m trying to find a working link to the mp3 so you can hear it from his own voice, but the links seem to be broken. But don’t just take my word for it - google “Pacwa Luther Duel” and read what others wrote after hearing.

 

[lilypadrees]

My view of a Protestant is anyone who isn’t Catholic or Jewish or any Eastern religion.

When we first moved here, there were more Protestants than Catholics. Total culture shock. Thankfully, Mama found the Catholic Church nearest us pretty quickly after meeting a Catholic co-worker.

But when she went back to Protestant churches herself, she was totally shocked and very memorably said, “They didn’t used to preach and teach this way.” My response? “Thank God! Become Catholic.” (For me, it was a simple solution. For her, not so simple.)

What amazed me about Protestant churches was that they didn’t have Bibles in the pews for the people to read from. Everyone brought their own. I went to a number of Protestant churches while Mama was trying to find the nearest church. And in all of them, it was stressed that the KJV was the only authorized written Word of God. If you didn’t have a KJV, you weren’t reading the right Bible.

To not preach and teach the KJV during a Protestant church service is simply unthinkable.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Examples of mortal sin. The consequence is the tip off. If one dies in them one is excluded from heaven, as in they go to hell

Then why do folks use Maccabees as a proof text for purgatory, when folks died from their mortal sin, and yet were prayed for with gift indulgences by others, as to help them out?

Maccabees isn’t proof of people who die in mortal sin going to purgatory. People who die in mortal sin go to hell. People in hell can’t be saved. They are there forever. But since we don’t know who goes to hell when they die, Catholics pray for our dead. In purgatory a soul can benefit from prayer. Souls in heaven don’t need prayer. We need their prayers.

 

[Pup7]

Again - I’ve been to Protestant churches where there are Bibles in the pews. The Methodist church I belonged to had them - the Baptist church across the street did. There wasn’t one for every person who could sit there, but there were several in each row. The caveat to that is in both churches, someone left some money when they died to buy Bibles so they would be available for people who might not be able to spare the money to buy a nice one in the era before Amazon.

Since all the little old ladies in that town talked to one another (and there was always good natured ribbing between those two groups) we always speculated that one mentioned it, and then the other one followed suit so as not to be outdone.

There are Bibles in every military chapel I’ve ever been to, though I don’t take that as representative of anything. Our joke with that is they’re bought with end of year funds as a legitimate expense. (If there is money left over at the end of the year, your next year’s budget for that unit/department is always shorted by that amount. So you spend it on whatever legitimate expense you can find, because next year, you really might need it for something important.)

 

[lilypadrees]

steido01: "During a 2010 call-in show, he said “Luther was racked with guilt… he apparently had killed somebody in a duel.”

You said he used the word “apparantly” in reference to Luther. That’s not the same as claiming he had murdered someone. I’ll see if I can find it and will listen to it. Most likely, Father’s words are being taken out of their proper context.

 

[lilypadrees]

I’m glad the churches you were in had Bibles in every pew. They all should, imo. Not everyone owns a Bible. It’s good if the church one frequents is able to provide them. They don’t here. In order to get a new Bible, you have to win whatever contest they are having at the time.

God bless the military and military chapels.:hugs:

 

[guanophore]

As am I. And I stated in a later post that I know what a straw man argument is.

Ok sorry I had not read that far yet!

Do you know if you highlight the text you want then click on the little quote box that text will appear?

All I know that he wrote was a catechism. that’s sold on Amazon. And I haven’t read that either. No desire to read it or anything else he wrote.

Actually his catechism is largely Catholic.

But, if you are going to accuse Luther of wrongdoing, it does not seem fair to do so if you are not going to read what he wrote. I guarantee you Fr. Mitch has read it.

Yes. What kind of source do you want? My source is Protestants who recognize the authority of the KJV. If you want scholars, no, I don’t have those.

Suffice to say that the Protestants who recognize only the authority of the KJV have no authority to determine that standard for anyone but themselves. That is their opinion. If they wish to use a truncated bible, no one can stop them (obviously) but that is not “authorative”. On the contrary, it rejects the authority established by Christ.

No, I didn’t invite you to conduct interviews. I said do the research yourself. If that involves conducting interviews to you, fine, go for it.

You did both, actually, thank you for my homework assignments.

It drives home the point that you appear to be making assertions without being willing to support them with anything but your opinion, or the opinion of someone else. Such sources have little credibility.

I use search engines and speak to people I know, not in an interview capacity, just casual conversation.

It certainly reflects an interested in being connected. It would seem to limit the quality of product, though.

That like the Protestants I conversed with elsewhere when the subject of Martin Luther first came up, were so floored that he had removed book 7 books and parts of two others from the Bible (and wanted several others removed that weren’t), that even if I gave you everything you wanted as source material, you still wouldn’t believe it.

Oh I think I would. I don’t suppose they wanted any credible sources for the assertion either?

I doubt those comments were recorded, but he said the same thing on an episode of Threshold Of Hope. Unfortunately, I no longer have that one. But you may still be able to find it in EWTN’s audio files.

Thanks, I will look. He is one of my favorite scholars. Just for the record, I don’t doubt that he said what you are claiming he said.

 

[guanophore]

It’s not the official Bible of the Methodist Church, and it looks like it’s likely not for the Presbys either.

Apparently it is only the official bible for people who reject all the other translations? It seems to be an amorphous group that can only be found by personal interviews.

 

[guanophore]

Why would you say that? I never said THAT day, in 1 Cor 3:10 was Sunday.

Just rattling your cage, steve-b. April fools day and all that.

Nor have I found evidence of anyone else saying such a thing.

Well, if your major sources on Luther’s life are google and casual conversations, that might shed some light on it.

A few years later, when I won a Bible, for something spectacular I had done in my own SBC Sunday School class, my SS teacher gave me a leather bound, thumbnail indexed Bible with my name on it. KJV.

I was only ever given one Bible as a youth. It was a KJV (without deuterocanon) given to me by my Methodist grandmother on my first Holy Communion. I knew nothing about reading the bible, as it was not common for Catholics in those days, so I bogged myself down reading from Genesis. I think I never made it past Leviticus.

Years later I went away to college and bought an RSV (also without Deutero) because that is what the Protestant Campus fellowship I attended was using.

My view of a Protestant is anyone who isn’t Catholic or Jewish or any Eastern religion.

I don’t disagree with your definition. But it is impossible to categorize Protestants on any one doctrine, bible version, or practice because, as GK has said, they are all over the map.

To not preach and teach the KJV during a Protestant church service is simply unthinkable.

It is ironic that they took a very Catholic position/practice about taking it upon themselves to determine the authorized version then restrict everyone to the use of it!

"During a 2010 call-in show, he said “Luther was racked with guilt… he apparently had killed somebody in a duel.”

You said he used the word “apparantly” in reference to Luther. That’s not the same as claiming he had murdered someone. I’ll see if I can find it and will listen to it. Most likely, Father’s words are being taken out of their proper context.

I thought killing someone in a duel was a legal practice? No one was supposed to be charged with murder because they both agreed that each would try to kill the other? I find it hard to believe that Luther would participate in a duel, but if he did, why would he feel guilty about winning the duel?

 

[steve-b]

lilypadrees:

As for your claim that he falsely accused Luther of murdering with his own hands, I don’t believe that for one minute. Nor have I found evidence of anyone else saying such a thing.

Believe it. During a 2010 call-in show, he said “Luther was racked with guilt… he apparently had killed somebody in a duel.”

I’m trying to find a working link to the mp3 so you can hear it from his own voice, but the links seem to be broken. But don’t just take my word for it - google “Pacwa Luther Duel” and read what others wrote after hearing.

About a duel, from a Protestant website,

they say they sort of found, circumstantial evidence from a German source

“A German biographer named Hans-Joachim Neumann published a book in 1995 entitled Luthers Leiden (English title Luther’s Suffering) in which he puts together some circumstantial evidence that in 1505 Luther killed a friend of his in a duel, the friend’s name being Hieronimus Buntz, and that the reason Luther entered the monastery was to escape punishment.” from beggars

I’ll just say, stuff on the internet needs to be vetted carefully. People get labeled as saying things they don’t say or what they do say is so re contextualized it doesn’t come close to what was actually said.

 

[JonNC]

To not preach and teach the KJV during a Protestant church service is simply unthinkable.

Which Protestant Churches? Or better, please be specific about the communion?
In the 60 years I was Lutheran, I never saw the KJV used. So, either your statement is wrong or you don’t consider Lutherans Protestant.
Saying Protestants do this or believe that is almost without fail an inaccurate statement. Why? Because other than a loose General grouping, their is no Protestant Church.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

To the OP: I hope you received the information you were seeking about Protestants in Purgatory, as it seems like this thread has gone off down some completely different topic of Protestants and the KJV.

If you have further questions about Protestants in Purgatory, feel free to ask (or start a new thread if this one is too derailed).

 

[guanophore]

I’ll just say, stuff on the internet needs to be vetted carefully. People get labeled as saying things they don’t say or what they do say is so re contextualized it doesn’t come close to what was actually said.

It does not seem to be a likely source for Fr. Pacwa. I am still confused, if it was a duel, why would there be any punishment? And if he did enter the monastery out of guilt, why is that such a bad thing? People went to monasteries for all kinds of reasons. Not a few women for unwed pregnancies! He stayed, so his superiors must have determined he had a vocation somewhere along the way.