Purgatory for Protestants?

[steve-b]

steve-b:

For those who die without mortal sin on their soul, that’s true.

Perhaps, but I am more familiar with the distinction of believers /non believers or those who blaspheme H.G.

Have you not seen all the mortal sins mentioned in scripture that keep one from heaven if one dies with any of them on their soul? By definition they are mortal sins.

Here’s an example

sins of the flesh sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions (διχοστασίαι ) factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, will not inherit heaven

I bring up dissension for a reason. Depending on one’s translation, that word might be any number of words. The Greek there is important. Open the link. It narrows down the meaning.

Note: Think of who it is also identifying 1500 years after Paul writes this letter.

 

[Wannano]

mcq72:

steve-b:

For those who die without mortal sin on their soul, that’s true.

Perhaps, but I am more familiar with the distinction of believers /non believers or those who blaspheme H.G.

Have you not seen all the mortal sins mentioned in scripture that keep one from heaven if one dies with any of them on their soul? By definition they are mortal sins.

Here’s an example

sins of the flesh sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions (διχοστασίαι ) factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, will not inherit heaven

I bring up dissension for a reason. Depending on one’s translation, that word might be any number of words. The Greek there is important. Open the link. It narrows down the meaning.

Note: Think of who it is also identifying 1500 years after Paul writes this letter.

Steve, you have made this point over and over to the point where it begins to look like you are consumed with it. Look carefully at some of the others mentioned and consider them . Idolatry, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition…dissension…They all can sneak up on us in many ways. One is not worse than the other.

 

[JonNC]

Here’s an example

sins of the flesh sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions (διχοστασίαι ) factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, will not inherit heaven

Indeed! In fact all sin can be mortal, for the unbeliever, or if not confessed.

I bring up dissension for a reason. Depending on one’s translation, that word might be any number of words. The Greek there is important. Open the link. It narrows down the meaning.

Note: Think of who it is also identifying 1500 years after Paul writes this letter.

A number of people. Standing apart! Pope Leo and Luther standing apart from each other. Both the Pope and Luther standing apart from Zwingli, etc Even 500 years earlier, the western See and the others standing apart from each other.
Sad.

 

[mcq72]

The “Day” is the day one dies.

Interesting…have to brush up on it…not seen that Day or Possibly Day of the Lord is one’s death

 

[TertiumQuid]

one minute. Nor have I found evidence of anyone else saying such a thing.

Believe it. During a 2010 call-in show, he said “Luther was racked with guilt… he apparently had killed somebody in a duel.”

I’m trying to find a working link to the mp3 so you can hear it from his own voice, but the links seem to be broken. But don’t just take my word for it - google “Pacwa Luther Duel” and read what others wrote after hearing.

Here you go.

Edited to add: Some of the editors of Luther’s Works wrote to me about Pacwa’s claim of the Luther being in duel. Here’s what they stated:

Rev. Dr. Benjamin T. G. Mayes said…
Was Luther a murderer?

In the early 1980’s, Dietrich Emme popularized the theory that Martin Luther entered the Augustinian monastery in Erfurt not due to his experience in a storm, but in order to escape prosecution after killing a companion (Hieronymus Buntz) in a duel in 1505 (Martin Luther: Sein Jugend- und Studentenzeit 1483-1505 [Cologne, 1982]). Emme’s work on this point has been widely dismissed in recent scholarship as piling one speculative conclusion upon another (e.g., Andreas Lindner, “Was geschah in Stotternheim,” in C. Bultmann, V. Leppin, eds., Luther und das monastische Erbe [Tübingen, 2007], pp. 109-10; cf. Franz Posset, The Front-Runner of the Catholic Reformation: The Life and Works of Johann von Staupitz [Aldershot: Ashgate, 2003], 94, and the response by Helmar Junghans, Lutherjahrbuch 72 [2005]:190).

The standard biographer of Luther claims that Hieronymus Buntz died of plague (Martin Brecht, Martin Luther: His Road to Reformation, 1483-1521 [Minneapolis: Fortress, 1985], 47), and this is documented in sources from 1505 (http://books.google.com/books?id=r2...&pg=PA34#v=onepage&q=Hieronymus Buntz&f=false).

-continued-

 

[TertiumQuid]

-continued-

The “duel theory” relies on one of Luther’s Table Talks: “By the singular plan of God I became a monk, so that they would not capture me. Otherwise I would have been captured easily. But they were not able to do it, because the entire Order took care of me” (D. Martin Luthers Werke: kritische Gesamtausgabe [Weimar Edition]: Tischreden, vol. 1 [Weimar: Hermann Böhlaus Nachfolger, 1912], p. 134, no. 326). Yet this refers to the Augustinian order’s protection of Luther from Rome in 1518, not a putative flight from prosecution for dueling in 1505.

If Luther’s “duel” were true, it would have been a matter of rather public knowledge, both casually, among students and the monks, and officially, both with whatever civil or episcopal authorities were supposedly trying to arrest Luther, as well as because a dispensation would have been required for Luther’s ordination (homicide being a canonical impediment for the sacrament of order). In other words, it would be practically unthinkable that when the Roman Catholic polemical biographer of Luther, Johannes Cochlaeus, was searching for data about Luther’s monastic career (and coming up with stories like Luther wailing in the choir) that such a “fact,” if true or even rumored, would not have emerged.

Dr. Christopher Boyd Brown, general editor, Luther’s Works: American Edition
Dr. Benjamin T. G. Mayes, managing editor, Luther’s Works: American Edition

 

[anon65111186]

Can any person be saved who dies in mortal sin?
Is willfully and knowingly not attending regular weekly mass at a Catholic church a mortal sin?
If a Protestant dies without ever attending regular weekly mass at a Catholic church can he be saved?
If Protestants are saved, do they also go to Purgatory?
If a Protestant goes to Purgatory does he suffer torment and punishment for his lifetime of not being Catholic or does he merely suffer for the consequences of his other sins?
If Purgatory is a pleasant cleansing experience as some Catholics now preach, do Protestants also get this experience or are they sent somewhere else?

1. Mortal sin means their soul is dead, disconnected from God, unless it get’s reconnected then no heaven.
2. Barring any serious circumstance, yes, it is a mortal sin
3. It would be unusual for a Protestant even to know of the need to go to Mass at all, so ignorance can reduce culpability
4. Yes, even though they don’t believe in Purgatory, they will go there and be surprised
5. If he or she was Protestant with full knowledge and will, then he or she will be there a lot longer
6. Saint Paul describes purgatory like a burning house, that you must escape from to live in Heaven, doesn’t sound pleasant at all, just a consequence of playing with fire.

 

[mcq72]

Yes, sins of the flesh…good thing we are a new (spiritual) creature…we must. be careful to see difference about sin that describes the carnal nature as were all of us before new birth, and the sin that beleaguers believers, the old nature rearing its ugly head

Yes sin is sin, but new nature and old nature are just that also…and only our new nature in Christ shall go up to heaven, the old nature dead now, by death.

 

[steido01]

Yet this refers to the Augustinian order’s protection of Luther from Rome in 1518, not a putative flight from prosecution for dueling in 1505.

The anachronism absolutely slays me.

Thanks, as always, for your sound historical work. Though we have considerable differences in theology and even on certain aspects of history, I am always thankful for how you seek original sources and their use. Please don’t ever let your work disappear.

 

[guanophore]

yet Paul does not mention any other option for "we’’ the christian…he mentions the “preference”, not as apart from hell or even purgatory,but explicitly from life in this current body.

I am not sure that we can assume, either, that purgatory is not being present with the Lord.

the particulars of the final judgement, that Paul references, sounds a lot like a purging, or what some make case for purgatory.

Certainly God is very present, and it is His Holy Love that burns away all that cannot enter His glorious dwelling. It is a Holy Fire, that consumes what does not belong to Him.

Oh, it was more than that. There was real corruption. And there was a sincerity on Luther’s part that rang true with many.

But Luther enjoyed an advantage that previous attempts at reform did not. The convergence of the economic, political, and social forces at work fanned the flames of his clarion call.

 

[guanophore]

Have you not seen all the mortal sins mentioned in scripture that keep one from heaven if one dies with any of them on their soul? By definition they are mortal sins.

No, by definition they are grave matter. Those who commit them may be guilty of a mortal sin, but that depends upon whether the conditions are met.

When Paul writes to Christians about these actions, there is an assumption that they are catechized, and engage in them with full consent of the will.

Modern Protestants cannot necessarily be charged with the sin of separation.

 

[guanophore]

nteresting…have to brush up on it…not seen that Day or Possibly Day of the Lord is one’s death

He has his own special definitions for how this word is used in various passages.

Yes sin is sin, but new nature and old nature are just that also…and only our new nature in Christ shall go up to heaven, the old nature dead now, by death.

If this were the case, why would there be an ongoing need to put it to death?

 

[mcq72]

I am not sure that we can assume, either, that purgatory is not being present with the Lord.

ok…that might be ,especially if the purging coming at His judgement seat ,at the end of tome , as Paul mentions…in the Day.

 

[mcq72]

If this were the case, why would there be an ongoing need to put it to death?

meant that the old nature is dead upon our physical passing, and the new man ascends to heaven, the battle between the two natures over.

 

[mcq72]

I am not sure that we can assume, either, that purgatory is not being present with the Lord.

Then one might be saying that unforgiven venial sin make it to heaven.

Of course Christ is omnipresent and always with the believer, but Paul says we are seated in heavenly places now, and I doubt Paul would be referencing anything other than heaven.

“and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,”…in heaven…all visions of the throne and heaven, of the new Jerusalem are just that…zero visions of any purging (save at the great Day , when works in Christ are judged, after the resurrection)

 

[guanophore]

meant that the old nature is dead upon our physical passing, and the new man ascends to heaven, the battle between the two natures over.

Yes sin is sin, but new nature and old nature are just that also…and only our new nature in Christ shall go up to heaven, the old nature dead now, by death.

OIC ok I read it wrong.

Then one might be saying that unforgiven venial sin make it to heaven.

I have heard that said, but I do not believe it. Nothing unclean can enter. That means big mud, and little mud!

Of course Christ is omnipresent and always with the believer, but Paul says we are seated in heavenly places now, and I doubt Paul would be referencing anything other than heaven.

This is one of the great mysteries of Christianity.

 

[TheOldColonel]

God is merciful. God is just. His mercy and justice surpass human mercy and justice. If God wills to be merciful, even to one who dies in mortal sin, then His mercy towards this person is also just. Who are we to judge God’s decisions or say He will not be merciful? How God deals with us in the afterlife is still largely unknown. Yet, the Paschal Mystery of Christ gives us a glimpse into the immense capacity of God to love and to forgive even great sinners. I do not believe we can fully comprehend this love while still upon this earth. It would overwhelm us in our current state. As I imagine it, being confronted by the full force of such overwhelming love is what constitutes hell, purgatory or heaven. One’s unmitigated experience of this reality may be quite painful if one is not ready or capable of receiving it.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

mcq72:

steve-b:

For those who die without mortal sin on their soul, that’s true.

Perhaps, but I am more familiar with the distinction of believers /non believers or those who blaspheme H.G.

Have you not seen all the mortal sins mentioned in scripture that keep one from heaven if one dies with any of them on their soul? By definition they are mortal sins.

Here’s an example

sins of the flesh sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions (διχοστασίαι ) factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, will not inherit heaven

I bring up dissension for a reason. Depending on one’s translation, that word might be any number of words. The Greek there is important. Open the link. It narrows down the meaning.

Note: Think of who it is also identifying 1500 years after Paul writes this letter.

Steve, you have made this point over and over to the point where it begins to look like you are consumed with it.

All the other mortal sins mentioned in scripture don’t need explaining. Not so for division. People just read right over that sin as if it is no big deal, OR no big deal for THEM. When in fact Those who are guilty of this sin, absolutely need to be consumed with fixing it within themselves.

The Greek above, describes “division, dissension, standing apart, divisions which wrongly separate people into pointless (groundless) factions”.

That is ALL of Protestantism and therefore those in it, regardless of name they use for their particular division/sect.

Wannano:

Look carefully at some of the others mentioned and consider them . Idolatry, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition…dissension…They all can sneak up on us in many ways. One is not worse than the other.

This thread is in the “Non-Catholic Religions” category. Meaning division from the Catholic Church at some point needs to be addressed. Scripture condemns such division as it does those who do it and are in it and remain in it. IOW it’s not a blanket okay for one’s soul to be divided from the Catholic Church. Cutting to the chase, I can’t say to a non-Catholic they are just fine being a non-Catholic just be a good non-Catholic whatever THAT means, and they’ll be just fine… That’s NOT true…

the thread is addressing purgatory for Protestants… If one is Christian, and non-Catholic, that distinction needs to be addressed at some point. Purgatory is NOT for those in mortal sin. And since this is the internet, and the conversations are available on any web search engine one uses, then each and any particular answer is for the most part brand new information, to a person who finds the answer as a result of a search result and reads it for the first time…

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Here’s an example

sins of the flesh sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions (διχοστασίαι ) factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, will not inherit heaven

Indeed! In fact all sin can be mortal, for the unbeliever, or if not confessed.

Just asking for clarification. Did you mean that as stated, that “all sin” can be mortal?

I bring up dissension for a reason. Depending on one’s translation, that word might be any number of words. The Greek there is important. Open the link. It narrows down the meaning.

Note: Think of who it is also identifying 1500 years after Paul writes this letter.

JonNC:

A number of people. Standing apart! Pope Leo and Luther standing apart from each other. Both the Pope and Luther standing apart from Zwingli, etc Even 500 years earlier, the western See and the others standing apart from each other.
Sad.

Jon,

For clarification,

What dividers do among themselves and between themselves, is NOT what I’m talking about.

Division I’m speaking of is the divisions brought about by the E Orthodox, AND later, Protestantism regardless of stripe, from the successor to St Peter (the pope), AND those in union with him, the Catholic Church.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

The “Day” is the day one dies.

Interesting…have to brush up on it…not seen that Day or Possibly Day of the Lord is one’s death

When we die, “on that day” we are judged by Jesus. We know at that point where we will spend eternity.

Just look at what Jesus said here