Purgatory for Protestants?

[adf417]

I’ll try one more time. While I am on Earth if I follow the church’s teachings I have a chance to avoid purgatory and go straight to heaven. If I fail to live up to the teachings, rather than sending me to hell, my merciful god has a place called purgatory where I will be purged of my sins and made perfect as nothing that is not perfect may Heaven. I warrant hell yet I am given purgatory. Purgatory will be painful as it will rid me of myself and my sin. The pain will be worth it as in the end I will become what God wishes Which is far more than I can dream of in my current state. You are upset because I see it as a merciful second chance. I don’t view my trials as punishment. You’re quite mean. Your meanness blinds you to the fact that we are basically saying the same thing. The difference is that I see the suffering in purgatory as a mercy and you see it as a punishment. To explore God’s mercy please read sister faustina’s diary. I found it enlightening and so did St John Paul the Great.

Im not upset, assuming this was directed at me, im just sad you continue to spread misunderstandings about something you clearly dont understand. Its not becoming of a Christian.

Peace be with you!!!

 

[JonNC]

Source, please, that says there is an “official Protestant Bible “.
The KJV is English. All so-called Protestants are not English speakers.

 

[JonNC]

Yes, the 1611 KJV contained all the books. This was before they were removed. If you will do your research, you will find the books were gradually removed from later editions.

Correct. And not by Luther.

 

[lilypadrees]

Source: Every Protestant who doesn’t accept any Bible other than the KJV.

 

[JonNC]

Source: Every Protestant who doesn’t accept any Bible other than the KJV.

That doesn’t make it “the official Protestant Bible “. Such a thing does not exist.

 

[SnowRose]

I have the distinct memory of having been through this exact topic, down to posting a picture from my own bible.
What is it with this (erroneous) belief that KJV is the gold standard for all protestant denominations worldwide? It’s a strawman argument at best.

 

[Steve4321]

This answer is a guess.

Actually, all of your answers are just guesses.

 

[Fauken]

Not all of them. If you die in mortal sin, you go to Hell. Period. 2 through 5 are in the air, I’ll grant you, but while they’re up to God, they’re educated guesses. The Church does not teach purgatory as a pleasant experience, nor have the private revelations of the Saints have said it to be so.

EDIT: Reworded.

 

[guanophore]

As to the Macabees reference, hard to understand that one committing mortal sin (idols involved) and being punished with death by God could then have sentence “commuted”,wiped clean, by such a subsequent offering of others. (read context around it).

Obviously it was not wiped clean, as they all paid with their lives.

Only God knows the heart, and whether a certain sin is mortal. The point is that prayers for those who died with a blemish against them had prayers offered for them. Why would this be done if it were of no avail?

Respectfully, I don’t care what’s in Luther’s version of the Bible. I’m talking about Protestant Bibles like the KJV

Ok, but it does not seem fair to blame Luther, who made a translation into German, for the contents of the English Bible, to which He did not contribute.

Purgatory is a second chance.

No, it is not. Purgatory is a state of purgation/cleansing for those who are destined for heaven. The Soul is only destined for Heaven or Hell at the point of death. There are no “second chances”.

It’s insulting to imply that because I have a different view I could not possibly be Catholic.

No one here is trying to insult you, Trixiepixie. But your understanding of Catholic teaching may be limited.

Were it not for purgatory, many people would go straight to hell.

This is simply false. No one is afforded the grace of purging who is not destined for heaven.

Without purgatory, the only option is hell. I consider that a second chance.

Then you have an insufficient understanding of the Catholic faith.

If I’m in purgatory then I failed in this life.

This is nonsense. We cannot “warrant” or earn salvation in any way, and no amount of human success can afford heaven for us. Purgatory cleanses us from our attachments to sin. This only happens if we are saved by grace, through faith, not of works.

I hope that didn’t over stretch your imagination.

It is good that you recognize it is an imaginative stretch. Right beyond the boundaries of the doctrine of the faith!

 

[guanophore]

Well, i don’t know what to believe then, you, or Lutherans, or historians who say he included them???

@lilypadrees has her own version of history and apparently the composition of Luther’s German translation of the Scripture.

As to the book of James, perhaps he was overreacting, but understandably so, due to his experience with the institutional church and some of its practices, (some would say abuses) dealing with justification(by righteous works).

Yes, the Church herself has formally declared these as abuses.

I might not totally agree with Luther here, just as you might not totally agree with some of the practices of the church at that time (I mean something was counter reformed).

Yes!

I think the reparation present in the JDDJ has done much to repair the damage done by these abuses.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p..._31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

Catholic clergy are forbidden to hold public office, to prevent the conflation of secular power with religious responsibility.

Money is also no longer accepted for an indulgence, to prevent even the appearance of evil.

???..

A good example of the poor catechesis I referenced. Plenty of Catholic in the pews who don’t understand their faith, without picking on non-Catholics!

 

[mcq72]

Source: Every Protestant who doesn’t accept any Bible other than the KJV.

???..

 

[guanophore]

I’ll try one more time. While I am on Earth if I follow the church’s teachings I have a chance to avoid purgatory and go straight to heaven.

The reason this is wrong is because “trying” is not a part of being saved. We are only saved by grace, through faith, not of our own works. We obtain heaven through the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, not because of our own ability to “follow the Church’s teachings”.

If I fail to live up to the teachings, rather than sending me to hell, my merciful god has a place called purgatory where I will be purged of my sins

The blood of Christ alone can expiate you from your sins. Purgation separates us from our attachment to sins, and the temporal consequences of our sins.

I warrant hell yet I am given purgatory.

No. If you warrant hell, then hell is where you will be. Purgatory is only for those who are bound for heaven.

Purgatory will be painful as it will rid me of myself and my sin.

Only the grace of God can rid us of our sins.

The pain will be worth it as in the end I will become what God wishes Which is far more than I can dream of in my current state.

This might be part of the problem. God wants you to be what He desires for you here and now. No waiting until death! If, in your current state, you are not walking in salvation grace through faith, there is a serious problem.

You are upset because I see it as a merciful second chance.

Not upset. Just recognizing that you are holding an imaginative concept that contradicts the teaching of the Church.

I don’t view my trials as punishment.

This, at least, is consistent with what the Church teaches. We are made perfect through our sufferings, and should embrace them as a point of purification. Purgatory can happen here, as well as in the afterlife!

You’re quite mean. Your meanness blinds you to the fact that we are basically saying the same thing.

I am unclear why you would understand a disagreement as “mean”. But clearly, we are not saying the same thing!

The difference is that I see the suffering in purgatory as a mercy and you see it as a punishment.

Have you considered that both things might be true?

 

[guanophore]

Again, I am referring to the KJV which is recognized as the officially authorized Protestant Bible.

By whom? This seems awfully narrow. The vast majority of Protestants don’t use this bible.

Yes, the 1611 KJV contained all the books.

Which begs the question, why is Luther getting blamed for removing them?

Source: Every Protestant who doesn’t accept any Bible other than the KJV.

Well this seems quite lame. What authority do they have? And since they are such a small minority, why does their opinion count?

What is it with this (erroneous) belief that KJV is the gold standard for all protestant denominations worldwide? It’s a strawman argument at best.

Well, it appears that @lilypadrees has an affection for straw.

 

[jtavington]

The KJV from the 18th century–the most well known one–does not contain the deuterocanon. NIV is the most popular translation, with ESV also in the running.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

how does it compare to sec. Vat LumenGentium, where we are graced with Salvation remaining as protestants?

Please reread Lumen Gentium. I don’t think that it says anything like that. Protestant Christians may well be saved despite being out of communion with the Catholic Church. That does not mean that schism, being out of communion with the worldwide Church, is ever a good thing. We should all work for the re-communion of all Christians.

 

[Reuben_J]

My questions are relatively straightforward, as follow:

Just saw this thread. Probably your questions are answered already. But here are straight-forward answers anyway, to affirm what has been said.

1. Can any person be saved who dies in mortal sin?

No.

1. Is willfully and knowingly not attending regular weekly mass at a Catholic church a mortal sin?

Yes. A Catholic is obliged to attend mass on days of obligation – usually Sundays.

1. If a Protestant dies without ever attending regular weekly mass at a Catholic church can he be saved?

We do not know. We leave it up to the grace of God.

1. If Protestants are saved, do they also go to Purgatory?

We do not know. It is up to God’s final judgment. However, like everybody else who are saved, it is possible.

1. If a Protestant goes to Purgatory does he suffer torment and punishment for his lifetime of not being Catholic or does he merely suffer for the consequences of his other sins?

Your question here is essentially about venial sins that a Protestant dies with, which are purified in purgatory. What sins they are, are for God to make the judgment.

1. If Purgatory is a pleasant cleansing experience as some Catholics now preach, do Protestants also get this experience or are they sent somewhere else?

We do not know exactly what would be in the hereafter. If someone said purgatory is a pleasant cleansing experience, it is probably an opinion in the relative. No, we do not know.

Purification by nature is associated with pain. One does not be purified without pain. Then again, perhaps looking at the bigger picture, if the purification is for the end result of entering heaven, which it is, then perhaps one can look at it with pleasure and hope.

It does not matter, because purgatory is not heaven but purification before entering it. One has to be purified and that’s why purgatory is necessary.

God bless.

 

[steido01]

They [Protestants] believe in… “once saved, always saved.”

Lutherans certainly don’t. Neither do the vast majority of Anglicans, as far as I know. In fact, OSAS is nearly exclusively limited to Calvinism, which posits a ‘Perseverance of Saints,’ yet even they acknowledge a sort of “backsliding.” So this is an incorrect and unfair accusation.

Since they don’t belive in Purgatory, they better hope they don’t die with any sins on thier souls or their goose(s) is cooked.

I’m not sure this correctly reflects Roman Catholic doctrine. But I should let our Roman Catholic friends explain that.

Martin Luther had Maccabees removed.

Just plain false. Martin Luther did not remove the Deuterocanon and the Lutheran Confessions do not define a table of contents to anathemetize everyone who disagrees. This is why Luther’s Bible actually included 74 books, not 73 like Roman Catholic bibles of today. Luther’s view on the Dueterocanon was entirely within the norm for Catholics of his time, and several Cardinals and fathers shared his views. Besides, the official, binding close of the canon for Roman Catholics took place at Trent — after Luther’s death. So blaming him is like blaming Abraham Lincoln for the Great Depression. It’s just silly.

Luther included them , with prefaces, many sounding like Jerome and other Catholics of good standing.

Yup. Cardinal Cajetan, too. And he wasn’t particularly a fan of Luther in any way. Seriously, look up the things the Cardinal said about him after meeting him.

Again, I am referring to the KJV which is recognized as the officially authorized Protestant Bible.

This is an absolutely ridiculous thing to say. Recognized by whom? Officially authorized for what? And what is a “Protestant” Bible?

I have the distinct memory of having been through this exact topic, down to posting a picture from my own bible.

Yep. And it was even demonstrated how even Roman Catholic bibles can vary. Some folks have convinced themselves of the ‘truth’ and won’t be confused with simple facts. I’ll never understand the vitriol of some with regard to this topic. History can speak for itself; there is no need to falsely represent it. Take how many Roman Catholics, like @guanophore, approach this topic: they come to the conclusion that their understanding of Scripture is correct by making a strong historical case based on actual fact. (Thank you, friend.)

 

[lilypadrees]

lilypadrees:

Source: Every Protestant who doesn’t accept any Bible other than the KJV.

???..

JonNC made a post. And I responded to it.

 

[lilypadrees]

Please do not say things about me that are untrue, guanophore.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Can any person be saved who dies in mortal sin?

Assuming the person didn’t get to confession prior to their death or they weren’t a Catholic so they didn’t engage in the sacrament of confession, then only God can judge whether the person’s sin was truly “mortal” and whether they have repented from the sin. Many believe that God gives people one last chance at the point of death to accept or reject God and then deals with the person accordingly based on the person’s choice.

Is willfully and knowingly not attending regular weekly mass at a Catholic church a mortal sin?

Depends. There are many reasons why someone does not attend weekly Mass at a Catholic Church. If a person is an avowed Protestant and hence does not go to Catholic Mass because that is not part of his sincere belief system, that is a different situation than a Catholic who has decided to turn his back on God and thus deliberately refuses to go to Catholic Mass on Sunday out of anger or hatred towards God.
Whether a sin is mortal is generally up to a confessor to determine; if the person does not confess prior to death, then God would be the judge of whether some act committed while alive was a mortal sin.

If a Protestant dies without ever attending regular weekly mass at a Catholic church can he be saved?

I would hope so and the current Catechism also suggests this is true, by noting that Protestants can be in communion with the Catholic Church through such things as having received Trinitarian Baptism.

If Protestants are saved, do they also go to Purgatory?

The Catholic Church does not exclude the possibility of Protestants going to Purgatory, so regardless of whether a Protestant thinks he’s “saved”, he still might end up in Purgatory. Or he might not. It depends on how things go when God judges the person after death.

If a Protestant goes to Purgatory does he suffer torment and punishment for his lifetime of not being Catholic or does he merely suffer for the consequences of his other sins?
If Purgatory is a pleasant cleansing experience as some Catholics now preach, do Protestants also get this experience or are they sent somewhere else?

We have no way of knowing what Purgatory might be like for a particular Protestant or a particular Catholic or for anyone at all. I would think in each case it depends on the individual person, the nature of their sins, their interior disposition towards God at the time of death, etc.