Purgatory**HELP!**

[Vincent]

"1Co 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. "

EVERY MAN! This would include Peter,Andrew,John,Philip, all the rest of the apostles and the people the catholic church has sainted it says every man!

Absolutely. The works of every man will be revealed and tested by “fire”. Whether they are apostles or not, whether they are canonized saints or not.

But what about the result of this revealing and testing by “fire”? Is the effect the same for everybody?

No.

If you continue with the next two verses you have two conditionals:

• *** If *the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.
• But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.
  As you can see it is in the case when “someone’s work is burned up” that “one will suffer loss”. It follows that if the works stands, then he will not suffer loss, but instead “will receive a wage”.

The effect of being saved, yet having one’s work burned up and consequently suffering loss describes what Catholics call “Purgatory”.

Every man will face the consuming fire that is God (Cf. Hebrews 12:29). But whether one experiences a purgatorial effect from this encounter depends on what you build upon the foundation that is Christ (Cf. 1 Corinthians 11-12)

 

[Techno2000]

BIBLE - 2 Machabees, Chapter 12. Verse 46:

“it is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead,
that they may be loosed from sins.”

 

[praise_Him]

My next question is this, How much time did Enoch and Elijah spend in purgatory?

There is one problem with using this interpretation of 1 Cor. 3 scripture is clear that this explanation is not valid!

" Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing more, neither have they a reward any more: for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Their love also, and their hatred, and their envy are all perished, neither have they any part in this world, and in the work that is done under the sun.
Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand is able to do, do it earnestly: for neither work, nor reason, nor wisdom, nor knowledge shall be in hell, whither thou art hastening"

"Psa 115:17 The dead shall not praise thee, O Lord: nor any of them that go down to hell. "

The word “hell” in these verses comes from the hebrew word sheol which if we look up it up means “the grave”
When dead we can’t love,hate,work,reason,have wisdom,knowledge nor can we praise God. Nor can we suffer in purgatory!

“Psa 146:4 His spirit shall go forth, and he shall return into his earth: in that day all their thoughts shall perish.”

It seems that the quote from mac. also doesn’t say anything about there being a purgatory if it did it would contradict many other scriptures also.
If you could clear up how purgatory is possible in the light of these verses it would be greatly appreciated. It is causing me some confusion. God bless

 

[DLC]

Did you know that the word gospel means “good news”?

Does it sound like “good news” to you that you can attend over a thousand Masses throughout your life and still die not fully purified from sin?

By contrast, does the following statement by the apostle Paul sound like “good news”: “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. it is the GIFT of God; not as a result of works. the no one can boast” (Eph. 2:8-9)**

 

[Lazerlike42]

My next question is this, How much time did Enoch and Elijah spend in purgatory?

There is one problem with using this interpretation of 1 Cor. 3 scripture is clear that this explanation is not valid!

" Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing more, neither have they a reward any more: for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Their love also, and their hatred, and their envy are all perished, neither have they any part in this world, and in the work that is done under the sun.
Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand is able to do, do it earnestly: for neither work, nor reason, nor wisdom, nor knowledge shall be in hell, whither thou art hastening"

"Psa 115:17 The dead shall not praise thee, O Lord: nor any of them that go down to hell. "

The word “hell” in these verses comes from the hebrew word sheol which if we look up it up means “the grave”
When dead we can’t love,hate,work,reason,have wisdom,knowledge nor can we praise God. Nor can we suffer in purgatory!

“Psa 146:4 His spirit shall go forth, and he shall return into his earth: in that day all their thoughts shall perish.”

It seems that the quote from mac. also doesn’t say anything about there being a purgatory if it did it would contradict many other scriptures also.
If you could clear up how purgatory is possible in the light of these verses it would be greatly appreciated. It is causing me some confusion. God bless

The verses from Ecclisiastes really aren’t the best to do. Ecclisiastes is a long series of speculations offered by a paticular person as he works out his difficulties, eventually coming to the conclusion at the end that much of what he said is incorrect and he has to trust God. Much else could be said against them, but suffice it to say that Sheol is where all people were understood to go by the Jews of that time, and so these verses could be used as an argument against Heaven just as much as Purgatory (and they are, by others who do not understand the Scriptural and Cultural context).

In terms of the rest, they are operating under the same assumption - all people, both good and evil, go to Sheol, and their works and name is forgotten on earth while they lay in the ground.

The only way that these verses could possibly deny Purgatory would be if Purgatory and Sheol were considered to be the same place - which they are not.

I’d also add this: nobody understands Purgatory completely. Some theologians have even suggested that those in Purgatory and those in Heaven are in the same place, but that those in Purgatory suffer as the vision of God burns off that last bit of unholiness in them, much like a person who has been in the dark for a long time experiences a bit of pain in the eyes when he first opens them to sunlight.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Did you know that the word gospel means “good news”?

Does it sound like “good news” to you that you can attend over a thousand Masses throughout your life and still die not fully purified from sin? **

Jesus said we must be perfect. Christ tells us that the greatest commandment is to love God with all our heart, mind, and soul. Hebrews tells believers who already have Christ that if they do not achieve holiness, they will not see God.

I think Purgatory is extremely good news, because I it means I can get to Heaven even though I know I can’t do any of that!

 

[praise_Him]

Psa 49:7 (49:8) No brother can redeem, nor shall man redeem: he shall not give to God his ransom,
Psa 49:8 (49:9) Nor the price of the redemption of his soul: and shall labour for ever,
God bless!

Ecc. agrees perfectly with our Lord’s teaching plus alot of otehr scripture posted. to say the book is “speculation” just isn’t scriptural!
"2Ti 3:16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice: "

ALL scripture is profitable for doctrine! God bless

 

[MariaG]

These are great questions Maria. Rev. does not tell us exactly who the 24 elders are. It does however point to where they came from.
“Rev 5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new canticle, saying: Thou art worthy, O Lord, to take the book and to open the seals thereof: because thou wast slain and hast redeemed us to God, in thy blood, out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation:”

It is very clear here that the 24 elders are saints redeemed from the earth. From the 2 previous posts on the state of the dead show us beyond a shadow of a doubt there is no existence, thought, or actions in death so we have to deduct that it is not some spirit forms of humanity. I see a possible explanation in scripture.
“Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose,”

I believe that Christ took some “firstfruits” home with Him. This could be a possible explanation. Although scripture does not positively identify who the 24 elders are.

As to your question about Hebrews 12:1 Let’s look at several verses immediately preceding that verse in chapter 11.

"Heb 11:36 And others had trial of mockeries and stripes: moreover also of bands and prisons.
Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were cut asunder, they were tempted, they were put to death by the sword, they wandered about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being in want, distressed, afflicted:
Heb 11:38 Of whom the world was not worthy: wandering in deserts, in mountains and in dens and in caves of the earth.
Heb 11:39 And all these, being approved by the testimony of faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God providing some better thing for us, that they should not be perfected without us. "

"Heb 12:1 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:
Heb 12:2 Looking on Jesus, the author and finisher of faith, who, having joy set before him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and now sitteth on the right hand of the throne of God. "

Remember that in the manuscripts there were no chapters or verses or even punctuation. So sometimes a passage is cut in the middle by a chapter. We see this here. Paul is describing the trials God’s people had gone through previously and exhorting believers that if these people who had suffered and died for God could endure these trials we should set aside our sins and press diligently forward for Christ! So we can see here that the martyrs were a cloud of witnesses for God . Interestingly enough the word “witnesses” there comes from the greek word “martus” which means a witness or a martyr.

Hope this helps answer your questions and God bless

So if I understand your postion correctly, you believe the majority of Saints in heaven are in soul sleep until the second coming of Christ, but some are awake offering the prayers?

Could you please quote scripture (forgive me if you already did and I missed it), where you get this?

I I have seen those who profess a soul sleep, but never some awake and some not and would be interested in your interpretation of Scritpure.

And I pray you will forgive me, but scripture warns us of those who will come along teaching false doctrines. Since I have never heard of this before, could you please point to some historical Christians who also profess a limited number of soul sleep?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Bishopite]

[praise Him;1984532]I would pose a question to the theology that 1 Cor. 3:10-15 is referring to purgatory. How long did Paul and the other apostles spend in purgatory? If we are going to interpret this passage as referring to purgatory we must look at the whole meaning!

First of all, Paul being a martyr wouldn’t have spent “time” in purgatory being he gave all that he could for Christ and immediately went to the beatific vision of God, (seeing God in His full glory). And purgatory can not necessarily be thought of as in time since death is the entering of eternity; past Popes and Catholic theologians simply placed a “time” element on pugatory for a better “human” understanding not that a person will spend X amount of time there; purgatory could very well be instantainous as it is in eternity where “time” isn’t affected.

"1Co 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. "

EVERY MAN! This would include Peter,Andrew,John,Philip, all the rest of the apostles and the people the catholic church has sainted it says every man!

You are thinking strictly of the collective sense of the word every or all, yet in the distributive sense it means all in a selective sense. For example: Romans 3:23 says “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” yet babies don’t have personal sin, do they? Protestants affirm that they go to heaven automatically since they don’t have personal sin. And the severe mentally disabled who don’t sin either, are they part of the “all haved sinned?” No, so every or all doesn’t necessarily include every person.

“Act 2:37 Now when they had heard these things, they had compunction in their heart and said to Peter and to the rest of the apostles: What shall we do, men and brethren?”

"Act 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
Act 4:16 Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it. "

Here we see scripture plainly pointing to Peter and the Apostles as men. 1 cor 3 says ALL MEN must have their works tried. Really surprises me that the Church would teach that Peter the Apostles and other icons had to go through purgatory!

Actually Peter and the other Apostles were martyred for the Christian faith so they would have avoiding purgatory. John who wasn’t martyred but went through great suffering for his faith died giving up everything for Christ; he was completely sanctified, in that he also gave all of his will to the will of God.
Purgatory is the final step of one’s sanctification.

 

[Vincent]

Does it sound like “good news” to you that you can attend over a thousand Masses throughout your life and still die not fully purified from sin?

It all depends on just how receptive a person chooses to be in the face of God’s proposal of love.

If a person responds with openness to Grace, but not completely, then it’s not surprising that he will be purified, but not completely.

Attending Mass mechanically without responding to God’s total donation of himself with our own total self-donation will bear little fruit.

If, however, a person participates in Mass with the heart that is totally receptive to God’s grace-- responding, without holding back, to God’s gratuitous initiative-- then the grace through just one Mass is more than enough to completely purify a person.

In Mass, we participate in the event by which Man and God give and receive the gift of themselves in an exchange of love so that one is so united with the other that one is in the other. That’s why we call it Communion.

Many of us choose to not to be so receptive. We allow God “in” but not completely at times. And we, at times, choose to hold on to this self-inflicted defect when we approach God at Mass.

That’s where Purgatory comes in. God loves us so much that he won’t give up on us even if, until death, we choose to be receptive to God, but not completely.

 

[VociMike]

Did you know that the word gospel means “good news”?

Does it sound like “good news” to you that you can attend over a thousand Masses throughout your life and still die not fully purified from sin? **
OK, I’ll bite. Are you “fully purified” from sin?

 

[Zooey]

Did you know that the word gospel means “good news”?

Does it sound like “good news” to you that you can attend over a thousand Masses throughout your life and still die not fully purified from sin? ** OK, I’ll bite, too:
**[SIGN] **Yes!! ****[/SIGN]
Anything that I do, or am, is going to leave me less than perfect…So???
Do you really want to see the King of Kings & Lord of Lords, without so much as a quick shower ahead of time???

By contrast, does the following statement by the apostle Paul sound like “good news”: “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. it is the GIFT of God; not as a result of works. the no one can boast” (Eph. 2:8-9)

 

[TheHem]

**I’m so grateful for all the responses.

I’m trying to munch on each thing offered.

I’m taking these in slowly. It’s a lot to absorb.**

 

[praise_Him]

MariaG wrote
“So if I understand your postion correctly, you believe the majority of Saints in heaven are in soul sleep until the second coming of Christ, but some are awake offering the prayers?”

Sorry it has taken awhile to reply. I am a bit under the weather this weekend. Let’s take a look first at where we go physically when we die.

"Ecc 12:7 And the dust return into its earth, from whence it was, and the spirit return to God, who gave it. "

Remember the word spirit here comes from the hebrew wordruach which literly means wind or breath.

"Psa 115:17 The dead shall not praise thee, O Lord: nor any of them that go down to hell. "

The word “hell” in these verses comes from the hebrew word sheol which if we look up it up means “the grave”

As we see from these scriptures the dead are in the ground asleep. Does this correspond with other scripture?

“1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall rise again incorruptible. And we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption: and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 And when this mortal hath put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory.”

“1Th 4:15 (4:14) For this we say unto you in the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them who have slept.
1Th 4:16 (4:15) For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment and with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ shall rise first.”

From these verses we can see that the dead rise from their graves at Christs second coming.

"Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne. And the books were opened: and another book was opened, which was the book of life. And the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it: and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them. And they were judged, every one according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the pool of fire. "

Here we see that everyone receives their reward at one time.

"Rev 22:11 He that hurteth, let him hurt still: and he that is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is just, let him be justified still: and he that is holy, let him be sanctified still.
Rev 22:12 Behold, I come quickly: and my reward is with me, to render to every, man according to his works. "

“1Co 3:14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.”

As we see from the scripture above we do not receive our reward until the great judgment day when Christ returns.

But back to the question on Rev. 5:8-9. We know that the dead saints are asleep in the ground with no consciousness or activity from verses quoted in previous posts. So we know that the 24 elders have to be literal live beings, and also that the prayers of the saints contained in the vials have to be the prayers of literal saints who are alive.

 

[praise_Him]

“Heb 13:24 Salute all your prelates and all the saints. The brethren from Italy salute you.”

"Php 4:21 Salute ye every saint in Christ Jesus.
Php 4:22 The brethren who are with me salute you. All the saints salute you: especially they that are of Caesar’s household. "

"Php 1:1 Paul and Timothy, the servants of Jesus Christ: to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons. "

Here we can see saints in scripture refers to God’s living people.If we did a study on the viles of doors which are the saints prayers we would see that the censer with the incense in it represent the sweet odor of the prayers of God’s people. But that is another topic. Note the 24 elders are not praying for the God’s people they are praising God and offering Him the sweet odor of the prayers that God’s people are praying.

"Rev 5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. "

As to your question about some of God’s saints already being resurrected We can see that indeed some were ressurected at Christs resurrection.

“Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, came into the holy city and appeared to many.”

Imagine what a site that was! I personally have a hard time believing that Christ would raise some of His saints to life only to die again. Scripture only talks about two deaths. One here on earth and one at the judgment day for the wicked. Scripture only refers to one death for the saints. again this is my belief from my own studies. If you have scripture showing a better or more plausible explanation I will gladly study it out I appreciate your concern over false teachers and I agree wholeheartedly that we have to be very careful! As to historical Christians teaching this I am sure that there would be no catholic sources teaching this because it the things contained in this study show that purgatory is not a scriptural doctrine. I am not sure how many of the early protestants taught it. I honestly do not worry to much about who taught it and who did not. I want to follow my Lord’s doctrine amen? I hope I covered all of your question satisfactorily

"Joh 17:17 Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. "

We are sanctified through God’s word not the fires of purgatory!

God bless

 

[praise_Him]

TheHem wrote

" I feel that trying to obtain all this knowledge without a personal relationship with Christ is futile. All that matters to me is that I may KNOW Him and to make Him KNOWN!"

I lived a miserable existence before I came to personally know Christ. I pray every day that I will have a closer relationship with Him and that He shows me His will in my life. Without Christ in our life it is a futile existence! I would like to encourage you in your walk with Him. Let Him know all your worries,fears,doubts,happiness,praise!

I praise Him that there are still people out there who are sincere about their relationship with Him. Sometimes it seems like nobody really cares about true spiritual living anymore and it gets discouraging sometimes.

"Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for, when he hath been proved, he shall receive the crown of life which God hath promised to them that love him. "

“Psa 106:1 Praise ye the LORD. O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever”

Praise God!

 

[Hilde89]

Ok, I just have a little tangent question. I’m in a gospel choir. The song “Oh Happy day”; are the lyrics wrong theology? It says Jesus “washes” our sins away. And this is what I’ve always been thaught. That’s why Purgatory is a little hard for me to understand.

 

[VociMike]

Ok, I just have a little tangent question. I’m in a gospel choir. The song “Oh Happy day”; are the lyrics wrong theology? It says Jesus “washes” our sins away. And this is what I’ve always been thaught. That’s why Purgatory is a little hard for me to understand.

What does “washes away our sins” mean? I might, for example, wash away mold from a painted surface, but if the mold has been there long enough the surface is still damaged and needs to be repaired. Jesus died for our sins, but we still sin, we still desire to sin, and we still live with the consequences of sin which are suffering and death.

The question to ask regarding purgatory is, are you ready at this very moment to enter heaven? If you instantly found yourself in heaven, would you suddenly have absolutely no impulse to sin? Would you have absolutely no disordered desires? I certainly can’t answer “yes” to this, can you?

Thus the process of purgation, which merely completes the sanctification which we have been undergoing on earth. Since each person dies at a different stage of that sanctification, each person has a different distance left to go in that process. God in His mercy finishes the job for us, because we did not respond to His grace fully enough for Him to finish the job here on earth.

 

[Church_Militant]

I love it when these folks come along and try to use verses like that one in Ecclesiastes to prove “soul sleep” or that the dead know nothing. They are also pretty much the same people who attempt to tell us Catholics that our doctrines have changed because we accept that doctrines develop (not change) as we grow in grace and knowledge.

The point is that the Old Testament did not teach a resurrection, and the Jews (who do not accept the New Testament and Jesus as the Christ.) even today do not believe in it.

So…out the window goes the idea that doctrines do not develop and the idea that the dead know nothing, since the New Testament plainly teaches different.

I won’t bother to post the resurrection verses since that doctrine is generally accepted, but I will point out Hebrews 12:1: Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us,

These witnesses can see the race.

Ever been to a race? The witnesses (generally known as fans!) do not just sit there stoically, now do they? Indeed not! They intercede (sometimes called “cheering”…) and loudly for their respective people.

How much more would the saints in heaven intercede (Oh look! Evidence for the intercession of Saints!) for those of us still running our races, especially since that race has such eternal consequences?

Here’s a link to a great Bible study on the Communion of Saints. The FREE MP3 of that study is downloadable here.
Well worth it.

 

[praise_Him]

There is 1 problem Ecc. isn’t the only verses concerning this doctrine. there are numerous others as seen in earl;ier posts here are just a couple

“Job 14:12 So man when he is fallen asleep shall not rise again; till the heavens be broken, he shall not awake, nor rise up out of his sleep”.

"Psa 115:17 The dead shall not praise thee, O Lord: nor any of them that go down to hell. "

The word “hell” in these verses comes from the hebrew word sheol which if we look up it up means “the grave”
When dead we can’t love,hate,work,reason,have wisdom,knowledge nor can we praise God. Nor can we suffer in purgatory!

“Psa 146:4 His spirit shall go forth, and he shall return into his earth: in that day all their thoughts shall perish.”

I do find soul sleep taught in the OT as well as in the NT by our Lord Himself

Joh 11:12 His disciples therefore said: Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 But Jesus spoke of his death: and they thought that he spoke of the repose of sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then therefore Jesus said to them plainly: Lazarus is dead. "

Here Christ taught explicitly that death was sleep.
"Mat 9:24 He said: Give place, for the girl is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. "

“Mar 5:39 And going in, he saith to them Why make you this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
Mar 5:40 And they laughed him to scorn…”

“Luk 8:52 And all wept and mourned for her. But he said: Weep not. The maid is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
Luk 8:54 But he taking her by the hand, cried out, saying: Maid, arise.
Luk 8:55 And her spirit returned: and she arose immediately. And he bid them give her to eat.”
Notice her spirit or breath as we have seen returned to her when Christ resurrected her. A common misconception is attatched to the word spirit, spirit is nothing more than a blast of air. In hebrew the word for spirit is ruach which means literally wind,blast,breath. In greek it comes from the word pneuma from which the english word pneumatic is taken. If we look up the word spirit in Luke 8:55 we see that the word pneuma is used in the greek. the definition for pneuma is a current of air, breath, blast or breeze.
Truth sets us free from fear of death or our future if we abide in Christ!
“Joh 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed him: If you continue in my word, you shall be my disciples indeed.
Joh 8:32 And you shall know the truth: and the truth shall make you free.”
Brothers and sisters I want to follow Christ’s teachings how about you?

What about Hebrews 12:1…Who are the witnesses? Let’s look at the context and the previous verses in chapter 11.

"Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
Heb 11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
Heb 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. "

Who are the witnesses in the context of this passage? They were people of great faith as well as martyrs. If we look at the Greek word for martyr in verse 1 it is martus which means a witness or a martyr. But it can easily be seen just from the context of the previous verses that this is referring to people of faith and people that were martyred as Paul exhorts us that our trials should be set aside in the light of the severe trials others suffered for Jesus sake!

It was actually only the Sadducee’s that did not believe in the resurrection in the OT the pharisees DID believe in the resurrection and we can see that Christ rebuked them for that belief and explicitly refuted this belief that they held!

“Mat 22:23 That day there came to him the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection; and asked him,
Mat 22:29 And Jesus answering, said to them: You err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married, but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.”

God bless!