Purgatory**HELP!**

[Iowa_Mike]

Did you know that the word gospel means “good news”?

Does it sound like “good news” to you that you can attend over a thousand Masses throughout your life and still die not fully purified from sin?

By contrast, does the following statement by the apostle Paul sound like “good news”: “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. it is the GIFT of God; not as a result of works. the no one can boast” (Eph. 2:8-9)**

The term good news relates to the ‘Word of God’ not to how a man lives his life. No one can enter heaven until they are perfect as God is perfect. Purgatory is where we go to be purified. There is no doubt that there is a scorecard. The Protestant notion that you can be saved by ‘faith alone’ is not supported anywhere in the bible. In fact the King James Version no longer includes the word “alone” in that passage.

So, with respect, I don’t agree with your interpretation of Paul. Here I believe he is saying you have been saved by grace through faith. He is saying that Faith is a gift from God not something man can obtain on his own.

Check out Ephesians:

Ephesians 2:8-10

8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

 

[GMichuta]

I think something ought to be said about the form of the Bible your friend is using. As it was posted earlier, 2 Maccabees 12 teaches that those who die in godliness benefit from prayer and sacrifices. Luther was forced to reject (or down-grade) the authority of Maccabees because its meaning unmistakably affirmed Purgatory and all that goes along with it. Maccabees demonstrates that the Purgatory was a doctrine understood by the Jews of Jesus’ day. As a consequence, the concept appears only incidentally in the New Testament. But as you can see by these posts, it is definiately there.

 

[LuvHim]

In a well-known scripture that Catholicism uses for Purgatory…who are these two groups…?

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Group 1 - The defiled, abominable, liars
Group 2 - Those written in the Lamb’s Book of Life

 

[VociMike]

In a well-known scripture that Catholicism uses for Purgatory…who are these two groups…?

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Group 1 - The defiled, abominable, liars
Group 2 - Those written in the Lamb’s Book of Life

LH, perhaps you would care to answer my simple question. Are you now completely free of sin and completely free of any inclination to sin? If not, then how do you expect to enter heaven, into which no sinner can enter, nor anyone inclined to sin?

 

[LuvHim]

LH, perhaps you would care to answer my simple question. Are you now completely free of sin and completely free of any inclination to sin? If not, then how do you expect to enter heaven, into which no sinner can enter, nor anyone inclined to sin?

No…and neither was Paul as we read in Romans chapter 7…But I have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous…

1John2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

The difference is the fact that God has changed me so that I now delight in the law of God. I hate sin and love righteouness whereas, before, I had no issue with breaking God’s law - I was in bondage to sin and it was my slavemaster. Now, my Master is Christ - but that does not mean that I am perfect and no person in the Book of Life is free from sin or the inclination to sin. The difference is that I have been to the fountain - I, by the grace of God, have repented from sin and turned to Christ as my Lord and my Savior - and have been justified (declared righteous) by faith. There is, therefore, now no condemnation for I am in Christ Jesus…and as Romans Chapter 7 says…I am dead to the law in that I am no longer under the law but under grace and have been freed from the penalty of breaking God’s law…eternal death. This means I am free now to serve God and live by his commandments for the purpose of glorifying Him. I have been born again by the Word of God and by the Spirit of God…Paul believed this as well…otherwise he would not have said things like…

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

This is the common accusation against people like myself…and the true fact of the matter is, Christ said…go and sin no more. God says - As he which hath called you is holy, be ye also holy in all manner of conversation (1 Peter 1:15).

I have been washed…

Joh 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

I am clean every whit - but if I am to have a close “walk with God”, I must go to the Father through the Son to have my feet washed - to put off my sandals when I step onto holy ground in my time of prayer and study of God’s Word…then all the day long, relying on Him to give me the victory over sin. But once washed, always washed…once clean, alays clean - having the fgift of the righteousness of Christ.

Dead to the law, a child of God, washed, justified, sanctified (positionally), being sanctified, to be glorified, healed of spiritual blindness, and raised to life.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

These are they written in the Lamb’s Book of Life…the others in Revelation 21:27 are the unclean, the unsaved - those "yet in their sins…those that die in their sins…why Catholics have to be considered to be in that group is beyond me - it is because there is an issue with their view of justification.

Could you please answer my question now that I had asked in my last posting rather thatn answer my question with your question. I would appreciate that.

May God Help Us

 

[Future_Prodigy]

after one is purified fullyin purgatory do they go on to heaven or must they wait till the 2nd coming, ressurection of the bodies and final judgment? Basically when there free of venial sins do they move on to heaven or have to wait till Christ’s second coming.

 

[guanophore]

These are they written in the Lamb’s Book of Life…the others in Revelation 21:27 are the unclean, the unsaved - those "yet in their sins…those that die in their sins…why Catholics have to be considered to be in that group is beyond me - it is because there is an issue with their view of justification.

Who considers Catholics to be in the group that must die in their sins? What is wrong with the Cathlic view of justification?

Could you please answer my question now that I had asked in my last posting rather thatn answer my question with your question. I would appreciate that./

May God Help Us

 

[VociMike]

No…and neither was Paul as we read in Romans chapter 7…But I have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous…

You said “No”, that’s good (I’ve seen Protestants answer “Yes” to this question!). Now, if, at the moment of your death (which may come at any time) you are still a sinner and inclined to sin, how can you possibly enter heaven?

As to your question, it does not pertain to the subject of purgatory, since only those who have already been assured heaven go through purgatory. Those are the only people we are discussing here, those who are saved at the moment of their deaths. That is a big misunderstanding that seems to constantly throw off Protestants.

Again, how can you, a sinner and inclined to sin, expect to enter heaven upon your death, when no sin or inclination to sin is allowed in heaven?

 

[Future_Prodigy]

sorry to stress this but:

after one is purified fullyin purgatory do they go on to heaven or must they wait till the 2nd coming, ressurection of the bodies and final judgment? Basically when there free of venial sins do they move on to heaven or have to wait till Christ’s second coming.

 

[VociMike]

sorry to stress this but:

after one is purified fullyin purgatory do they go on to heaven or must they wait till the 2nd coming, ressurection of the bodies and final judgment? Basically when there free of venial sins do they move on to heaven or have to wait till Christ’s second coming.

They enter heaven just as those few who are perfectly purified here on earth enter heaven. I am pretty certain that Church teaching is that they enter heaven immediately.

 

[LuvHim]

You said “No”, that’s good (I’ve seen Protestants answer “Yes” to this question!). Now, if, at the moment of your death (which may come at any time) you are still a sinner and inclined to sin, how can you possibly enter heaven?

Because I am justified and am dead to the law…washed. I explained that. I have been perfected forever as Hebrews 10:14 says. Again - that does not mean that I never sin…

1 John 1:8-10 KJV 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

But, my sin is no longer imputed to me as I am not under the law but under grace. I am free from the penalty of the law.

My sin hinders my relationship with God but does not have penalty in terms of having to go to hell. Purgatory is not in the Bible.

As to your question, it does not pertain to the subject of purgatory, since only those who have already been assured heaven go through purgatory. Those are the only people we are discussing here, those who are saved at the moment of their deaths. That is a big misunderstanding that seems to constantly throw off Protestants.?

In this case, Karl Keating is wrong in using it as a reference to Purgatory. Saved at the moment of death? This is not what thet is referring to…

Again, how can you, a sinner and inclined to sin, expect to enter heaven upon your death, when no sin or inclination to sin is allowed in heaven?

It seems you are using Rev 21:27 here …as a person written in the Lamb’s book of life…absent from the body and present with the Lord…

2 Corinthians 5:8 KJV 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Philippians 1:23 KJV 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

 

[VociMike]

Because I am justified and am dead to the law…washed. I explained that. I have been perfected forever as Hebrews 10:14 says. Again - that does not mean that I never sin…
…But, my sin is no longer imputed to me as I am not under the law but under grace. I am free from the penalty of the law.

My sin hinders my relationship with God but does not have penalty in terms of having to go to hell. Purgatory is not in the Bible.

We have established that you (not just you, all of us) now sin and incline to sin. So I guess the next question is, will you sin in heaven? Will you incline to sin in heaven?

In this case, Karl Keating is wrong in using it as a reference to Purgatory. Saved at the moment of death? This is not what thet is referring to…

I’m confused too. I have no idea what Karl Keating uses as an apologia for purgatory. But I am approaching the question from my own angle. So the key question from my angle is, how can you enter heaven if you now sin and incline to sin? Can you enter heaven unchanged, or must you change (be changed) before you enter heaven?

 

[Odell]

Because I am justified and am dead to the law…washed. I explained that. I have been perfected forever as Hebrews 10:14 says. Again - that does not mean that I never sin…
:

being dead to the law does not mean what you try to make it mean

I am affraid you do not understand what it means to be free from the law

Ill let Christerpher West explain this to you

[Christopher West Book Theology of the body for beginners pg 40]
“Most people look at Christian morality-especially sexual morality-as an oppressive list of rules to follow. How far this misunderstanding is from the living morality proclaimed by Christ! The Gospel dosen’t give us more rules to follow. The Gospel is meant to change our hearts so that we no longer need the rules(see cathichsm 1968) To the degree that we experince this change of heart we experience freedom from the law(Rom7;Gal 5) not freedom to break the law; freedom to fullfill it.”
"Heres an example of what freedom from the law looks like: Do you have any desire to murder your best friend? This may seem like an odd question, but it actually demonstrate the point. Assuming you do not, then you dont need that comandment. Thou shall not murder thy best friend. Because you have no desire to break it. To this extent you are free from the law. In other words, you don’t experience this law as an imposition because your heart conforms to it.

before original sin the human heart comformed to Gods. that is what Christ came back for to show us how to conform our will to his. and the Church is there to help

one last thing
When we allow Chist into our hearts we no longer need the law because we no longer desire to break them. What law do you still need? What teachings of the Church still feel like a burdan or impostion to you? Perhaps the problem isn’t the law or the Church, but with your “hardness of heart” dont throw away the law surender your disordered desires to Christ and let him transform them.

could you explain what you think of this? Also with you believing that you are free from the law does that mean there is no consequence to our sins?

 

[TertiumQuid]

Luther was forced to reject (or down-grade) the authority of Maccabees because its meaning unmistakably affirmed Purgatory and all that goes along with it.

I would be interested in seeing quotes from Luther’s Works to substantiate this point. Thanks.

 

[Keikiolu]

sorry to stress this but:

after one is purified fullyin purgatory do they go on to heaven or must they wait till the 2nd coming, ressurection of the bodies and final judgment? Basically when there free of venial sins do they move on to heaven or have to wait till Christ’s second coming.

Oooo,… good, although weird, question…!!

If they’re CLEANED, there’s nothing left to “burn” off of them, so what would be the sense in letting them “hang out” in purgatory?

Just my opinion, of course, but if one person has “less filth” to burn off than another person in purgatory, and they BOTH had to spend the same amount of “time” there, wouldn’t that be a bit “unjust”?

Though (I imagine) the one with “less filth” stops actually “suffering” and starts “getting bored” when they’ve done their “time”.

Still,… it just doesn’t “sound right” that God would create a big boring “doctor’s waiting room” out of an otherwise “useful purgation facility”.

(( Hope that’s not TOO irreverent!? ))

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Keikiolu]

In a well-known scripture that Catholicism uses for Purgatory…who are these two groups…?

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Group 1 - The defiled, abominable, liars
Group 2 - Those written in the Lamb’s Book of Life

Group 1 is: The defiled. The abominable. Liars. Those who aren’t the Saints.

Group 2 is: All others. The Saints.

Why do you ask? And what is the significance of the question?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Odell]

1 John 1:8-10 KJV 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

But, my sin is no longer imputed to me as I am not under the law but under grace. I am free from the penalty of the law.

So your sin is no longer imputed but in verse 9 that you quoted. That sin that is no longer imputed to you needs to be confessed so God can forgive it and so he can clean us of the unrighteousness of that sin that is imputed.

dude your starting to make no sence.

 

[MariaG]

In a well-known scripture that Catholicism uses for Purgatory…who are these two groups…?

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Group 1 - The defiled, abominable, liars
Group 2 - Those written in the Lamb’s Book of Life

Although others have said this, it is clear that you still do not understand what purgatory is.

Purgatory is NOT a second chance at heaven. Only those who are written in the book of life at the moment of their death will be purged of all uncleanliness and see heaven.

If someone dies a liar and a thief, unconfessed, they will go to hell, not purgatory.

Also, there is no time definition on purgatory. In May be instantaneous, even though the popular Catholic belief is that there will be “time” spent in purgatory.

And purgatory is not defined as an actual “place” although, again, the popular belief/idea is that purgatory is a place.

You have stated that you do not belief you are completely holy at this moment and time? Purgatory is simply the definition of the process that will make it possible for a person to be completely holy after death.

And it is completely biblical:extrahappy:

God Bless,
Maria

 

[WestonGrant]

Didn’t JPII say that purgatory was MORE than a place or something like that? Not that it WASN’T a place, too. I’ve heard someone say that purgatory is like the anteroom to heaven and it made some sense to me.

I know the word place might mean something a little different when we’re talking about spirits. But heaven is a place and we will have bodies in heaven (glorified, I know), but there is a real place, too.

 

[MariaG]

Didn’t JPII say that purgatory was MORE than a place or something like that? Not that it WASN’T a place, too. I’ve heard someone say that purgatory is like the anteroom to heaven and it made some sense to me.

I know the word place might mean something a little different when we’re talking about spirits. But heaven is a place and we will have bodies in heaven (glorified, I know), but there is a real place, too.

JP said it should be thought of as more of a process or a condition than a place. Found it. ***GENERAL AUDIENCE, ***Wednesday 4 August 1999 In number 5.

Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected. Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church’s teaching on *purgatory. *The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence. Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ who removes from them the remnants of imperfection (cf. Ecumenical Council of Florence, *Decretum pro Graecis: *DS 1304; Ecumenical Council of Trent, Decretum de iustificatione: DS 1580; *Decretum de purgatorio: *DS 1820).

Also, I did find this from our current pope while he was still Cardinal Ratzinger from the article from James Akin, How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants*, *bold and color are added emphasis by me

1. There is no place or region in the afterlife for the saved except heaven. Well, this may be true. The Church teaches that purgatory is the final purification, but not that it occurs in any special region in the afterlife. Just as we do not know how time works in the afterlife—meaning that purgatory may take no time—we also do not know how space works in the afterlife, especially for unembodied souls—meaning purgatory may not take place in any special location.
   The final purification may take place in the immediate presence of God (to the extent that God’s presence may be described in spatial terms). In fact, in his book on eschatology, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger describes purgatory as a fiery, transforming encounter with Christ and his love:
   “Purgatory is not, as Tertullian thought, some kind of supra-worldly concentration camp where one is forced to undergo punishments in a more or less arbitrary fashion. Rather it is the inwardly necessary process of transformation in which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God * and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of saints. Simply to look at people with any degree of realism at all is to grasp the necessity of such a process. It does not replace grace by works, but allows the former to achieve its full victory precisely as grace. What actually saves is the full assent of faith. But in most of us, that basic option is buried under a great deal of wood, hay and straw. Only with difficulty can it peer out from behind the latticework of an egoism we are powerless to pull down with our own hands. Man is the recipient of the divine mercy, yet this does not exonerate him from the need to be transformed. Encounter with the Lord this transformation. It is the fire that burns away our dross and re-forms us to be vessels of eternal joy.”
   Thus according to Ratzinger’s way of explaining the doctrine, as we are drawn out of this life and into direct union with Jesus, his fiery love and holiness burns away all the dross and impurities in our souls and makes us fit for life in the glorious, overwhelming light of God’s presence and holiness.*

God Bless,
Maria