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Farsight001
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I have to ask when you think that the Church formally taught that purgatory was a place? I also have to ask why you think considering it a place would be what lead to indulgences and the great schism?
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MarcoPolo
Guest
Going to have to remember that dictionary term.
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Church_Militant
Guest
No, actually the problem is that you are apparently ignorant of both scripture and Christian history, not to mention even Judaism. I suggest that you carefully check out the following article from my blog which will help fill in those gaps. Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory
Not the topic of the thread. You might want to search this forum on infallibility and catch up on it and then perhaps open a new thread on that topic where we can discuss and debate it if you wish. Just FYI, you might check out these links before you do.
- In what sense is the Pope Infallible?
- Has the Pope exercised his power in infallibility more than once?
:yawn: And yours is not an excuse to attack" Catholicism? Granted you are pretty civil, but the fact that you engage us with arguments such as you have so far in this very post still indicates a desire to attack our beliefs, so let’s just be clear about that up front, okay? (Just FYI and to help you stay within CAF’s rules, I would also suggest that you check out Consolidated Stickies For the Apologetics Forum. READ THIS FIRST!)
Many of us have been non-Catholics, some of us for many years. I am one of those. You can read My Testimony and see for yourself.
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Surnaturel
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Hey Big BC.
First, I would note that all of the Church Fathers in the first millennium refer to purgatorial fires as a process whereas scholastic theology first used the term Purgatorium to designate a place (ca 11th century). Either conception is compatible with Catholic doctrine.
Second, Benedict XVI situates purgatory in the event of our individual judgment by Christ. This is incontrovertibly scriptural since the NT most often refers to judgment of one’s life and deeds as a fire for which Jesus exhorts us to ‘buy of Him gold tried in the fire’ (Revelation). Notable Protestant theologians like Wolfhart Pannenberg have said that this sort of interpretation nullifies the criticism of purgatory.
First, I would note that all of the Church Fathers in the first millennium refer to purgatorial fires as a process whereas scholastic theology first used the term Purgatorium to designate a place (ca 11th century). Either conception is compatible with Catholic doctrine.
Second, Benedict XVI situates purgatory in the event of our individual judgment by Christ. This is incontrovertibly scriptural since the NT most often refers to judgment of one’s life and deeds as a fire for which Jesus exhorts us to ‘buy of Him gold tried in the fire’ (Revelation). Notable Protestant theologians like Wolfhart Pannenberg have said that this sort of interpretation nullifies the criticism of purgatory.
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dtf123
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Unfortunately none of you really even tried to address my question, but I did learn, through your posts and through further research, that Pope Benedicts revelation concerning Purgatory as a process, not a place, is not necessarily a new concept in official Catholic doctrine. However, it’s been my experience that most Catholics don’t know this. If the RC church didn’t, by extension, believe in indulgences, then the RC Churches failure to educate their laity on their error of understanding would be a serious sin, however, since the widespread ignorance of true Catholic doctrine doesn’t effect the ensuing error, I don’t suppose it makes much difference.
I was hopeful when I read the Popes statement. I thought this was a step away from error by the Roman Catholic church. Unfortunately, I learned that the church still believes in indulgences, which is odd, if Purgatory is not a place but a process. If it’s not a place, then Christians would either be sanctified on earth or in heaven. If it’s on earth, then it’s not much (if any) different from the process of sanctification, which most protestants believe in. If its in heaven, then Catholics traditional argument for the existence of purgatory falls apart. And, if it’s not a place, then how would you buy someone out purgatory ?
Finally, although I have no desire to rehash the argument between RC’s and Protestants over the concept of Purgatory, I did find it disappointed that many of your arguments seemed to omit the purification of the blood of Jesus. It’s as though you’re so passionate to defend Catholic beliefs that you’ve lost the belief that Christ blood, shed on the cross, has saved us, by making us “the righteousness of God”. If you say, like Paul does in 2 Cor 5:21, that Christ has made us the righteousness of God, but also believe that, some how, we still need purification between earth and heaven, then say so, and explain your point. But many of your positions seem to omit this position to such an extent that one would think you deny the purifying power of the blood of Christ. But again, please understand that my point in this paragraph is not to argue against Purgatory (a concept that seems so antithetical to biblical teachings that I find it unreasonable to argue), but to suggest that any logical argument for purgatory, must be made without excluding the Elephant in the room, that is, the biblical fact of Christ purifying blood.
I was hopeful when I read the Popes statement. I thought this was a step away from error by the Roman Catholic church. Unfortunately, I learned that the church still believes in indulgences, which is odd, if Purgatory is not a place but a process. If it’s not a place, then Christians would either be sanctified on earth or in heaven. If it’s on earth, then it’s not much (if any) different from the process of sanctification, which most protestants believe in. If its in heaven, then Catholics traditional argument for the existence of purgatory falls apart. And, if it’s not a place, then how would you buy someone out purgatory ?
Finally, although I have no desire to rehash the argument between RC’s and Protestants over the concept of Purgatory, I did find it disappointed that many of your arguments seemed to omit the purification of the blood of Jesus. It’s as though you’re so passionate to defend Catholic beliefs that you’ve lost the belief that Christ blood, shed on the cross, has saved us, by making us “the righteousness of God”. If you say, like Paul does in 2 Cor 5:21, that Christ has made us the righteousness of God, but also believe that, some how, we still need purification between earth and heaven, then say so, and explain your point. But many of your positions seem to omit this position to such an extent that one would think you deny the purifying power of the blood of Christ. But again, please understand that my point in this paragraph is not to argue against Purgatory (a concept that seems so antithetical to biblical teachings that I find it unreasonable to argue), but to suggest that any logical argument for purgatory, must be made without excluding the Elephant in the room, that is, the biblical fact of Christ purifying blood.
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sw85
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Exactly. Indulgences have nothing to do with the question of whether Purgatory is a “place” or a “state.” Nothing at all.
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snarflemike
Guest
dtf123, is heaven a place?
What is your proof that purgatory is not a place?
What is your proof that purgatory is not a place?
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dtf123
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Yes, heaven is a place, at least as we understand it, and for all practical purposes, and as it might apply here. Pope Benedict said purgatory is not a place. catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1100116.htm
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RobbyS
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Well, historically, the doctrine about Purgatory was not where Luther most definitely departed from the Church. Rather it was his wholesale rejection of the sacramental system and the authority of the Church and the substitution of his own authority as an interpreter of the Bible.
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sw85
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This is all very interesting because what little of it makes sense is completely wrong.
Purgatory has nothing to do with purification or sanctification. It has to do with discharging the debt of justice owed for sins. Note that “debt” is different from “guilt.” Guilt is forgiven through grace, debt is repaid through penance. If discharging the debt of justice is what you mean by “purification,” then why in the world do you think it’s something that has to be done only within the context of physical locality? There is literally zero logical connection between “Purgatory is not a place” and “Therefore indulgences don’t make sense.” None.
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snarflemike
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So does the process of purgatory take place in heaven (a place, and a place into which no sin can enter)?
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Surnaturel
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That is not true at all, especially not for Pope Benedict XVI (see his book Eschatology). Rather, Ratzinger dispenses largely with juridical categories for the atonement and purgatory. Instead, he sees Purgatory as primarily remedial and that by viewing your rejection of God’s love and seeing how the seeds of sin that you (we) planted have caused others to suffer we then begin to conform ever more deeply to Christ. Pain and punishment is not the point of this process, but it is an inavoidable consequence.
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Surnaturel
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- Pope Benedict XVI on purgatory in Spe Salvi.
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guanophore
Guest
Actually, neither of these are true. You have been given some very good responses, so I hope that you read them.
Protestants believe in pugatory too, they just don’t call it that. They believe that, when a soul leaves this life, if that soul is in fellowshiop with Christ, that person will be made fit for heaven by His grace (despite having left this world in less than a perfect state of sanctification.
Due to the limitations of our human mind, it is difficult for us to conceive of the soul in a state outside of the space time continuum, but that is exactly what the afterlife is.
Furthermore, the notion of paying for the consequences of one’s sins was received in the Church from the Jews (as can be seen in the book of Macabees). As part of the once for all divine deposit of faith, it was then passed to all the Churches founded by Apostles, so it is not “Roman” but belonging to ancient Christianity. The Orthodox refer to the concept as “Toll Houses” on the road to heaven.
I agree that there do seem to be some bigoted responses here. There is no value in attacking the beliefs of our separated brethren, since you are only clinging to the deposit of faith you have received from the Reformers. Most Protestants don’t even know the origin of their doctrines, believing them to have come out of Scripture.
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guanophore
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There is absolutely no reason that one cannot, or should not, pursue the purgation of sins from themselves during this life, rather than waiting for the next. That is what the Saints did, and we are encouraged to emulate them. Souls don’t have to wait to be purified.
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Porknpie
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DTF,
The catechism has only a few paragraphs on purgatory out of nearly 2,000. That said, as you implicitly believe in the infallibility of the Catholic Church to have selected the books of scripture in your bible (likely that you have 66 out of several hundred writings that they Church selected 73 from), how is it that you believe that the same Church, guided by the Holy Spirit to all truth, could error on faith and morals? If you believe the Church to be wrong on Purgatory, then neither can you trust that books in your bible are inspired and inerrant, and that you have the right books in it.
Pork
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dmar198
Guest
Very true. I hope I didn’t give the impression that I think otherwise. In my own life, I hope to bypass purgatory completely. But from a doctrinal perspective it is still a state of suffering in the next life for one’s unforgiven venial sins or the just punishment thereof, it’s just that some people leave this life without those, due to a combination of Confession, indulgences, martyrdom, and/or a good penitential life, and so they get to bypass Purgatory completely – which is something I hope to do.
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steve_b
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He was commenting on St Catherine
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2011/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20110112_en.html
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Usagi
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Yep, now you’re getting it. Indeed, even Heaven and Hell can be considered as states of the soul rather than literal places, at least before the Final Resurrection. Right now, no one in Hell has a body, so it’s presumably not a place as we think of places in our earthly existence. Likewise, when the Devil is “roaming to and fro on the earth,” it cannot be that Hell is a physical place from which he has escaped or been released. He carries Hell with him in his permanent separation from God and the torment that inevitably brings.
Now, after the General Resurrection at the end of time, that may all change. There may well be a location somewhere in the universe where the risen bodies of the damned are sealed away and another where the resurrected saints are able to enjoy the delights of their glorified bodies. (We are promised a new heaven and a new earth, not just a cloudy state of bliss.) But even then, the important thing about Heaven and Hell will not be their physical location, but the fact of being with God or apart from Him forever.
Since Purgatory will not exist after the General Resurrection and thus only ever has to “contain” souls, it never needs to be a place in the literal, physical sense.
As you eventually seem to have realized, whether Purgatory is conceptualized as a literal place or as a process the soul undergoes makes no difference to the concept of indulgences, and thus the Church has not been leading anyone into error on the topic. It is still perfectly permissible to believe that there is a place set aside for purification, just as it is permissible to believe in a Heaven and a Hell that are places, but it is not necessary to think of them as literal places.
The Church has made much progress in repudiating past errors in judgment that have caused great harm, and you would be right to consider that a good thing. But she is never going to admit error in her doctrines, as it is not she who is wrong.
You are misunderstanding. Even if Purgatory is a process rather than a place, it still takes place “between” our earthly lives and the full experience of Heaven. It might take only a moment, or many subjective lifetimes. There might be a place set aside for it or it might be completely internal to each soul. But when we talk about Purgatory as a distinct thing from our sanctification on Earth, we mean something that happens after death but before all tears are wiped away. It might simply be a part of what we call the particular judgment (the individual one after each person’s death, as contrasted with the general judgment at the end of time), or it might be a separate process that takes eons for some people.
All we know for sure is that something changes between death and Heaven. We go from sinners saved by grace (but sinners still) to beings who will never again so much as imagine going against God’s will. There is a process of sanctification in this life, yes, and Catholics very much believe that, but from the observable evidence it seems that few if any of us actually complete the process by the time of death. Yet in Heaven we are perfect. Catholics explain that by positing a final purification that we call Purgatory. I’m sure you’ve had Catholics quote you the passage in I Corinthians about the testing by fire that will destroy unworthy works but still save the person. While that is not a 100% killer reference to Purgatory, since it seems to be dealing primarily with the judgment of clergy who build worthy or unworthy teachings upon the foundation of Christ, it does illustrate the point. Not everything about me, even at the moment of my death, is going to make it into Heaven. Some aspects of me – habits, attachments, whatever – are unworthy of a child of God. And while God has forgiven me for them and offered me Heaven in spite of my unworthiness, at some point between now and Heaven he’s actually going to take those things away. And if I have been clinging to those things as part of my identity, then that change will probably be unpleasant for me at least momentarily, just like getting past an addiction in this life. That is Purgatory.
(cont’d)
Usagi
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Usagi
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(continuing)
Indulgences, when properly taught and understood, have nothing to do with “buying one’s way out of Purgatory,” and so do not go away just because Purgatory is reconceived as a process rather than a place. Originally, indulgences applied to long periods of penance in *this *life, such as those that used to be expected of Christians who denied Christ under persecution or committed other grave and public sins. Those who were awaiting their martyrdoms would sometimes ask the bishop if their own perseverance might be counted in favor of a loved one who had not been as strong, reducing the length of the lapsed Christian’s penance in recognition of the martyr’s heroism. Later, as the concept of Purgatory solidified within the Church, there came the idea that one could similarly ask mercy for brothers and sisters who were undergoing, not earthly penance, but the final purification after death. Thus it came to be recognized that prayers or almsgiving by a living Christian could be “applied to the account” of a deceased one to ease the unpleasantness of their Purgatory. The abuse of the idea of indulgences during the fundraising for St. Peter’s Basilica (which, as you know, was one factor that helped kick off the Reformation) led to the abolition of indulgences for monetary donations, but the idea of indulgences in general remains good and true.
As for the purifying blood of Christ, without that we wouldn’t even be having this conversation. Purgatory, whether it’s a place or a process or an event, is an encounter with the purifying blood of Christ, indeed the final one in which we are cleansed of the last impurities that we would not allow God to take away before our deaths. It is the last step in what you call sanctification. It’s not an alternative to the grace of God, poured out on us through the shed blood of Christ to justify us and make us clean – it is precisely a manifestation of that grace in action.
Remember that Purgatory has nothing to do with the condemnation that results in Hell. Whether place, state, or process, Purgatory is part of Heaven, though considered separately because it still involves some degree of loss and regret, whereas the full experience of Heaven has none of that. (When they are conceived as places, Purgatory is often visualized as the “doorstep” or “foyer” of Heaven, where you wipe your feet and adjust your outfit before heading into the Wedding Feast.) Purgatory only applies to the saved; it’s not a second chance for the damned. And it’s not a punishment that nullifies Christ’s sacrifice – it is a purification that exists only because of Christ’s sacrifice.
Usagi
Indulgences, when properly taught and understood, have nothing to do with “buying one’s way out of Purgatory,” and so do not go away just because Purgatory is reconceived as a process rather than a place. Originally, indulgences applied to long periods of penance in *this *life, such as those that used to be expected of Christians who denied Christ under persecution or committed other grave and public sins. Those who were awaiting their martyrdoms would sometimes ask the bishop if their own perseverance might be counted in favor of a loved one who had not been as strong, reducing the length of the lapsed Christian’s penance in recognition of the martyr’s heroism. Later, as the concept of Purgatory solidified within the Church, there came the idea that one could similarly ask mercy for brothers and sisters who were undergoing, not earthly penance, but the final purification after death. Thus it came to be recognized that prayers or almsgiving by a living Christian could be “applied to the account” of a deceased one to ease the unpleasantness of their Purgatory. The abuse of the idea of indulgences during the fundraising for St. Peter’s Basilica (which, as you know, was one factor that helped kick off the Reformation) led to the abolition of indulgences for monetary donations, but the idea of indulgences in general remains good and true.
As for the purifying blood of Christ, without that we wouldn’t even be having this conversation. Purgatory, whether it’s a place or a process or an event, is an encounter with the purifying blood of Christ, indeed the final one in which we are cleansed of the last impurities that we would not allow God to take away before our deaths. It is the last step in what you call sanctification. It’s not an alternative to the grace of God, poured out on us through the shed blood of Christ to justify us and make us clean – it is precisely a manifestation of that grace in action.
Remember that Purgatory has nothing to do with the condemnation that results in Hell. Whether place, state, or process, Purgatory is part of Heaven, though considered separately because it still involves some degree of loss and regret, whereas the full experience of Heaven has none of that. (When they are conceived as places, Purgatory is often visualized as the “doorstep” or “foyer” of Heaven, where you wipe your feet and adjust your outfit before heading into the Wedding Feast.) Purgatory only applies to the saved; it’s not a second chance for the damned. And it’s not a punishment that nullifies Christ’s sacrifice – it is a purification that exists only because of Christ’s sacrifice.
Usagi
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