Purgatory is Biblical

[Sir_Knight]

Maybe I exaggerated a bit with love… but you can still repent. You can still feel compassion, but the problem is that those in Hell did not feel compassion when they had to… while they lived on Earth. There is a time when repentance is useless. You must repent while you’re here on Earth. May I know where did you get the idea that those in Hell do not repent for their actions?

If you follow Jesus, He cleans your sins. The purgatory gives people idea like these: well… though I sin, if I believe him, but keep doing lesser sins, I’ll just endure a couple of hours in fire, and then enter Heaven. This is not true. you are either clean or not. Whoever follows Jesus killed himself (his nature) and is reborn spiritually. You will sin less and less everyday until you’ll be a saint. Only saints enter Heaven. He cleans us here on Earth, not when we die. If you are a true Christian, you will sin no more, and if you do, He will forgive you. There will be consequences for the sins you accidentally do on this Earth, but you will not pay them on the next life, but here.

“clearly” is wrong to say. The Bible says nothing about a purgatory. But indeed the Bible says that our sins are washed with Jesus’ blood, not fire. Our sins are forgiven and washed while we live, not when we die.

Don’t think that even if sin, you will still enter Heaven only for believing in Jesus. Do not fool yourself. Only saints enter Heaven and the place to become a saint is here, not when you die.

Let’s look at the context:

By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. (Hebrews 3:10-15)

You see that this passages form a comparison. It says that if you put gold and other precious stones on the foundation, fire will test them. Gold is tested through fire. You see if what appears to be gold is really gold by testing it trough fire. We construct our good works, love, etc. on our Lord Jesus Christ. He is our foundation. Our faith, hope and love are built on this foundation. Every good deed is built on this foundation. As gold is tested trough fire, so are our faith, love, hope and good works tested trough trials like temptations, sufferings, etc.

“as one escaping through the flames.” As you see, this is another comparison. It means that he is saved by God’s grace. It’s like he had a lot of luck.

Okay, kindly explain 2 Tim. 1:16-18? Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). There is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Why is Paul asking for mercy on Onesiphorus? Hint, hint. He is in purgatory.

About me… in my current situation I’m going to Heaven. But I pray to become as much of a saint I can.

Amazing that you are so certain of your salvation when the Apostle Paul, a man obviously filled with the Holy Spirit, was unsure of his own salvation since he wrote that he was working toward it with FEAR and trembling. If he was certain that he was going to heaven, as you are, there would have been no reason to fear and tremble.

 

[suko]

Maybe I exaggerated a bit with love… but you can still repent. You can still feel compassion, but the problem is that those in Hell did not feel compassion when they had to… while they lived on Earth. There is a time when repentance is useless. You must repent while you’re here on Earth. May I know where did you get the idea that those in Hell do not repent for their actions?

Hmm, I think the same thing can be said in reverse. May I know where you get the idea that souls in Hell can repent and feel compassion?

Let’s look at the context:

By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. (Hebrews 3:10-15)

You see that this passages form a comparison. It says that if you put gold and other precious stones on the foundation, fire will test them. Gold is tested through fire. You see if what appears to be gold is really gold by testing it trough fire. We construct our good works, love, etc. on our Lord Jesus Christ. He is our foundation. Our faith, hope and love are built on this foundation. Every good deed is built on this foundation. As gold is tested trough fire, so are our faith, love, hope and good works tested trough trials like temptations, sufferings, etc.

“as one escaping through the flames.” As you see, this is another comparison. It means that he is saved by God’s grace. It’s like he had a lot of luck.

Let’s take another look at the context if you don’t mind (using the link Sir Knight provided earlier).
“if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). This means that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).
Further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire. And by fire, he means the purgatorial/purification flames used to expiate our punishments brought upon from our sins.

About me… in my current situation I’m going to Heaven. But I pray to become as much of a saint I can.

I’ll pray too that you can be as much of a saint here on Earth while you can. However, as Sir Knight pointed out, that’s probably not the best way to see yourself. If you truly want to be as holy and saintly as possible, which sounds like you do, then you should learn as much about humility as possible. Pride, which is contrary to humility, is a very tricky thing, and one that the demons excel at getting people to indulge themselves in. One mustn’t forget that Jesus, not you, is your judge. Not me, not Sir Knight or anyone else here on this board can judge you or determine the current state of your soul. Please do not fall into the very sinful trap of pride. I know I’ve been there (and still fight against it to this day), and am still doing my best, as we all are called to do, to be like Jesus - meek and humble of heart.

 

[suko]

Secondly, what would have been the point of Jesus spending three days in hell?

I just read through (finally!) the whole Chapter which talks about the visions of Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich’s of when Jesus descended into Hell (aka, the realm of the dead/Purgatory). Blessed Anne also interchangeably uses Hell as meaning Purgatory and vice versa. However, during her visions, she makes it pretty clear that Jesus went into Hell itself, where the damned and demons were, but it seems like He didn’t spend too much time there. Jesus, for the most part, seems to have, as is believed by Christians, freed those (and spoke to those) that were in Purgatory and Abraham’s Bosom. Blessed Anne also describes some of the events that took place as if having happened in but a moment’s time. Of course, what may have been but a moment’s time, could easily have been 3 days on Earth, as pure spirits are not bound by time. Also, I thought this part was interesting, so I’ll quote this and share with everyone:
“Our Lord, by descending into Hell, planted in the spiritual garden of the Church, a mysterious tree, the fruits of which – namely, his merits – are destined for the constant relief of the poor souls in Purgatory. The Church militant must cultivate the tree, and gather its fruits, in order to present them to that suffering portion of the Church which can do nothing for itself.”

Sir Knight, (and any other Catholics out there) if you have never read any of Blessed Anne’s books, they are certainly worth reading. She’s regarded as one of the greatest mystics to ever have lived. She was actually beatified by the late great John Paul II, whom himself was declared venerable by Pope Benedict XVI last month. Here’s a brief bio on her if anyone’s interested: newadvent.org/cathen/05406b.htm

A lot of this goes against official Church teaching. Since they really mean purgatory when they say hell, they most likely also mean purgatory in reference to the Rich Man as well.

I had heard a lot of Catholics preach this – that the rich man is in purgatory. I’ve actually found myself doing the same, but am not quite sure now after having read that sermon that SHW just posted, and especially what St. Thomas has said in his Summa Theologica: newadvent.org/summa/5098.htm#article4 Article 4, “Objection 1” and the “Reply to Objection 1.” I think what St. Thomas says in his last sentence on “Reply to Objection 1” is critical where he says “Yet he would rather that his brethren were damned as well as all the rest.”
If you don’t mind me asking, does it officially say within the teachings of the Church that the rich man is in fact, in purgatory? I searched the Catechism of the Catholic Church, but couldn’t find anything exclusive, as well as in my Navarre Bible which does a pretty good job with its comments after some of its passages.
I did find, however, L’Osservatore Romano, which is the newspaper of the Holy See, copied onto EWTN’s website: ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2heavn.htm
This also appears to have been what Venerable John Paul II had said in a Wednesday audience.
Take a look under the heading of “Hell is a state of eternal damnation,” he talks about the rich man. I’ll quote from there, “By using images, the New Testament presents the place destined for evildoers as a fiery furnace, where people will “weep and gnash their teeth” (Mt 13:42; cf. 25:30, 41), or like Gehenna with its “unquenchable fire” (Mk 9:43). All this is narrated in the parable of the rich man, which explains that hell is a place of eternal suffering, with no possibility of return, nor of the alleviation of pain (cf. Lk. 16:19-3 1).”

Now unless Venerable John Paul II is also wrong, it seems like there’s a good case for the rich man being in hell. However, if you know something somewhere where the church specifically treats/teaches the rich man as in being in purgatory, I’m all ears. :yup:

 

[Sir_Knight]

Unless, the Pope OFFICIALLY declared it as Church teaching, it was merely his understanding that was being stated. Just as some Popes in the past expressed a belief in Limbo while the current Pope does not express a belief in Limbo. Popes can be wrong unless they OFFICIALLY declare something. And I know of no “official” teaching on this matter.

You, yourself, pointed out that compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are forever cut off from His graces and yet the Rich Man expressed concern for his brothers. Additionally, the actions of the devil and his demons prove that those in hell wish others to share their faith even if it increases their own suffering because every soul that they snatch from God adds to their suffering but they continue to do it because causing an soul to join them is more important to them then than the increased suffering that it will bring.

So the argument that the Rich Man didn’t want his brothers to end up there because he didn’t want his suffering to increase can not be used. He didn’t want them there because he had compassion for them – something he would not have been able to have if he was in hell.

I think that we come full circle with this disagreement and neither one of us will convince the other so I suggest that we agree to disagree on this one and focus our attention on proving the existence of Purgatory – which is what this thread is about (*and where the Rich Man was *).

 

[Cristian_B]

Okay, kindly explain 2 Tim. 1:16-18? Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). There is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Why is Paul asking for mercy on Onesiphorus? Hint, hint. He is in purgatory.

May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus. (2 Timothy 1:16-18)

Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing. (Timothy 4:8)

They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you. (2 Thessalonians 1:9-10)

As you said, he is talking about the day when Jesus will come; Matthew 25:31-46, to be more precise: the day of the judgment. Everyone is judged: saints and sinners. The saints are found blameless and the sinners guilty. But with the measure we use we will be measured. So I believe that if there is a little sin that we didn’t ask for forgiveness, but we forgave our brothers during our lifetime, since God uses our own “measure”, He will forgive you, and still be considered blameless. If you were strict with your brothers and sisters, so will God be with you because the measure you use you’ll be measured with. Perhaps that is why he is asking for mercy, so God will forgive any non-confessed sins. There are plenty or reasons, but that doesn’t prove purgatory.

Amazing that you are so certain of your salvation when the Apostle Paul, a man obviously filled with the Holy Spirit, was unsure of his own salvation since he wrote that he was working toward it with FEAR and trembling. If he was certain that he was going to heaven, as you are, there would have been no reason to fear and tremble.

Actually, it is now, that I re-read it, when I realize that I forgot “not”. Sorry for the confusion produced.

 

[SHW]

First off, the Catholic definition of Hell is the absence of God. If Jesus actually went into hell, it would have ceased to be hell because God was no longer absent from there. Secondly, what would have been the point of Jesus spending three days in hell?

Jesus actually went to Hades, the abode of the dead which includes both Purgatory and Hell and it used to include Limbo or Abraham’s bosom. Since it was confusing to people, the Catholic Apostles’ Creed now reads, “He descended to the dead.” home.inreach.com/bstanley/creeds.htm

A lot of this goes against official Church teaching. First off, nobody gets out of hell. Those in hell are forever lost. Those who had gone before Jesus weren’t in hell but in purgatory. That is where Jesus went to free the souls that went before Him. They are clearly treating purgatory and hell as being one and the same which they are not. Since they really mean purgatory when they say hell, they mostlikely also mean purgatory in reference to the Rich Man as well.

It is true that no one gets out of hell.

Those persons who had already atoned for their own personal sins before Jesus descended to the dead were in Abraham’s bosom also called Limbo Luke 16:22 and they were eager to see Him. Those who still were atoning for their personal sins were in Purgatory or Prison and Jesus went to preach to them before He arose again from the dead 1 Peter 3:18-20.

The rich man is in hell. There is a great gulf which cannot be breached between hell and Abraham’s bosom and between hell and purgatory.

Luke 16:25-26
But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

This great gulf is fixed forever. No one can ever get out of hell.

 

[SHW]

Demons tempt humans even though they know that it will increase their suffering showing that they prefer increased suffering in exchange for having more souls being damned. If the Rich man was in hell, he would have acted the same way. He would have preferred his brothers to be damned with him even if it increased his suffering. Since he did not want them to share his faith, he was acting in a way completely opposite to how those in hell act proving that he was not in hell but in purgatory.

I will try to explain it more clearly:

St. Aquinas:
2. Repentance in the true meaning of that word, is a hatred of sin as such. There is no repentance of this kind in hell. But if repentance be taken to mean merely the regret that sin causes suffering, and hatred of sin merely as the cause of suffering, then we can say that there is repentance in hell.

1. The condemned in hell cannot wish to be annihilated, for this wish is in conflict with the nature of every being. But doubtless the damned wish for some kind of sleep or death or extinction of consciousness that would bring surcease of suffering.

1. As in heaven there is perfect charity, and happiness in the fact of each soul’s being saved, so in hell there is perfect hatred and envy, and malicious desire to see others suffer the pains of hell.

1. The damned hate God (not in himself, for this is impossible) in the effects of his justice which they have perversely brought upon themselves.
   jesus-passion.com/HELL.htm

The two statements above that I put in bold type are very important; The damned desire to decrease their own suffering yet they also have a malicious desire to see others be damned.

When confronted with both of these two at the same time as in the case of the rich man and his brothers, the damned will selfishly choose to decrease their own suffering for eternity. If the rich man’s brothers are condemned, he believes that his own suffering will increase for eternity since he contributed to their sins/downfall from grace. He would prefer that they be saved than for himself to have to suffer more for eternity as a result of his own participation in their damnation. 1 Corinthians 15:33 This is why he begs Abraham for help. He selfishly wants to lessen his own suffering.

Luke 16:27-31
“Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

 

[SHW]

Demons tempt humans even though they know that it will increase their suffering showing that they prefer increased suffering in exchange for having more souls being damned. If the Rich man was in hell, he would have acted the same way. He would have preferred his brothers to be damned with him even if it increased his suffering. Since he did not want them to share his faith, he was acting in a way completely opposite to how those in hell act proving that he was not in hell but in purgatory.

Demons do the most evil that they possibly can. They now have more hatred towards God than they have love for themselves. They want to steal as many souls away from Him for eternity as they possibly can. They are anti-God in the same way as the Antichrist will be anti-Christ.

 

[WarriorofJesus]

Originally posted by Cristian B

If Satan will kneel before God at the end of times, will that save him? He had his chance at the beginning of time.

This is wrong and false. You cannot be comparing the salvation of human beings with Satan. Satan doesn’t have a chance at all for repentance for he is condemed for eternity. Human beings have the opportunity to repent and seek salvation as long as they are living on Earth and regret their sins. Satan and his Demons do not have that opportunity at all by any means. That explains their great hatred against all mortal beings that inhabit this Earth and why they want people to join them in their misery down in Hell. They ( Satan and his Demons) do no stand seeing God’s creatures (humans) being saved and going to Heaven while he is destined for destruction for all times in the Lake of Fire.

*10 Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

14 Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death.*

Passage Revelation 20:10-20:14

And no, Hell is not for the most evil people that only want people to join them there. Believe it or not, there is no such place as purgatory: you are either a saint or not. If you are not, then you’re going to Hell. If you are, then you will eat of the tree of life. Is it so hard to be a saint?

The fact here is that many are taught lies, stopped or inturrupted when becoming a Saint. I have shown you proof that purgatory exists whether you like it or not. Also, you have not been able to prove any of my posts to be false. Hell is only for those individuals that reject Jesus Christ in this Earth along with the Almighty God because they choose it that way. It was their choice. They were responsible for their salvation but rejected Jesus and a life in eternity in heaven.

About that passage… can’t you understand that it says knowledge? Knowledge means informed. After receiving knowledge, or after being informed, or after finding out, etc. of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and His mission, you do not want to be a Christian, then you are doomed. He does not speak about Christians but non-Christians. If any non-Christian, after receiving knowledge of God’s mission, he does not want to be a Christian, then he is already judged for not believing in God’s only Son. That is what he’s talking about.

Which passage are you talking about?

 

[WarriorofJesus]

“If the damned in hell contributed to/were responsible for the damnation of “these others,” then they do not want “these others” to be damned because it will increase their own suffering.”

So why do the devil and his demons continue to try and get souls damned to hell? According to your reasoning, they should be doing all that they can to prevent others from joining them so that their own suffering will not be increased.

The fact that they continue to draw souls to hell even though it increases their own suffering disproves your point.

The Devil and his demons continue to drag souls into Hell so they can join him in his misery because he can’t stand watching humans becoming forgiven and getting the opportunity to join God in Heaven. As we all know, Adam and Eve commited sin because Satan had lied and tricked them into doing so. God who saw this, says that he will save them (Adam and Eve) and enable for them to have a chance for joining him in Heaven. Satan was a much more superior creature than Adam and Eve and it was that very reason that God decides to give them (Adam and Eve) the opportunity in the future to go into Heaven. While Adam and Eve’s future generations would be saved by Jesus, Satan was not forgiven and would never be forgiven and will be tormented for eternity. It’s this “how dare you save and forgive them but not me” situation by Satan that causes him to send as many souls as he can to Hell.

1 The serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild animals the Lord God had made. One day he asked the woman, “Did God really say you must not eat the fruit from any of the trees in the garden?”

2 “Of course we may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,” the woman replied. 3 “It’s only the fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden that we are not allowed to eat. God said, ‘You must not eat it or even touch it; if you do, you will die.’”

4 “You won’t die!” the serpent replied to the woman. 5 “God knows that your eyes will be opened as soon as you eat it, and you will be like God, knowing both good and evil.”

6 The woman was convinced. She saw that the tree was beautiful and its fruit looked delicious, and she wanted the wisdom it would give her. So she took some of the fruit and ate it. Then she gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it, too.

Here Adam and Eve sinned because of weakness and not because they just wanted to or actually intended to rebel against God. Satan tricked them. While Satan sinned intentionally and rebeled, Adam and Eve sinned without really intending in doing so. That’s the very same reason why Satan will never be forgiven. His sin was diferent than from what Adams and Eve’s was.

 

[WarriorofJesus]

If you follow Jesus, He cleans your sins. The purgatory gives people idea like these: well… though I sin, if I believe him, but keep doing lesser sins, I’ll just endure a couple of hours in fire, and then enter Heaven. This is not true. you are either clean or not. Whoever follows Jesus killed himself (his nature) and is reborn spiritually. You will sin less and less everyday until you’ll be a saint. Only saints enter Heaven. He cleans us here on Earth, not when we die. If you are a true Christian, you will sin no more, and if you do, He will forgive you. There will be consequences for the sins you accidentally do on this Earth, but you will not pay them on the next life, but here.

“clearly” is wrong to say. The Bible says nothing about a purgatory. But indeed the Bible says that our sins are washed with Jesus’ blood, not fire. Our sins are forgiven and washed while we live, not when we die.

Don’t think that even if sin, you will still enter Heaven only for believing in Jesus. Do not fool yourself. Only saints enter Heaven and the place to become a saint is here, not when you die.

You wont spend a couple of “hours” in fire but it may take decades or hundreds of years to get out of there. It can be from several years to even hundred of years. The Virgin Mary even said that those that had died a hundred years ago are going to stay there until the end of this world. You do not pay for the sins you have comitted down here on Earth unless someone prays against you and leaves you in the hands of the Lord. Those who sin quite often even though they do believe in Jesus is because they do not pray or follow Jesus teachings. Thus, the Holy Spirit is not in them and recieve less graces from God.

Every little sin that we do down here on this Earth is a big one for God. I will leave you some testimonies of the amount of times souls must spend in purgatory. The only person that is fooling himself is you for the Bible clearly says that those who have faith in Jesus will not perish. WILL NOT PERISH. It doesn’t matter how long they last in Purgatory but they wont go into Hell and Perish. Only fire can purify a Spirit and that is exactly what happens to them when they are in Purgatory unless having intercession from someone down here on Earth. That intercession must be powerful if wanting to release that person from Purgatory in just several years.

Here are testimonys of how long one can be in Purgatory:

Link: pwhs-mfi.org/read_me/remain_purgatory.htm

 

[WarriorofJesus]

As gold is tested trough fire, so are our faith, love, hope and good works tested trough trials like temptations, sufferings, etc.

False. God never tests someone through temptations. Temptations come only from the Devil and nothing more. God does not make tempations because he desires that you seek eternal life with him in Heaven and not Purgatory. God is love, light, peace, harmony and all the goodness that exists in the universe and it’s not in his nature to be tempting his own creatures (humans) even though he knows that they are naturally weak in nature and imperfect.

 

[WarriorofJesus]

Originally posted by Cristian B

The saints are found blameless and the sinners guilty. But with the measure we use we will be measured. So I believe that if there is a little sin that we didn’t ask for forgiveness, but we forgave our brothers during our lifetime, since God uses our own “measure”, He will forgive you, and still be considered blameless. If you were strict with your brothers and sisters, so will God be with you because the measure you use you’ll be measured with. Perhaps that is why he is asking for mercy, so God will forgive any non-confessed sins. There are plenty or reasons, but that doesn’t prove purgatory.

False. There are no measurements if you aren’t completely pure or still have a couple of sins lingering in your soul. If that was so, then you are stating that all you have to do to be saved is do a lot of good deeds but it’s still ok to commit venial sins. God doesn’t tolerate any sins at all. Not even little ones. For Adam and Eve only sinned once and that was just desobeying him in eating the prohibited fruit. They then broke relationships with Him. God didn’t “measure” them when they had sinned or said, “well lets see, you sinned just once but while you were in paradise, you were good towards your husband so that measures it all out and now your sin doesn’t count.” That is not how it works!

It was necessary to send Jesus and die for us in order to repair the relationship and bring peace between man and God. Can you imagine that? Only through the death of God’s only son Jesus, was He able to forgive Adam and Eve! A death was necessary! That’s how bad and ofensive it was for God to have Adam and Eve desobeying him even though it wasn’t their intention and were tricked by the serpent. That’s how ofensive sins are for God. For us it doesn’t look that “bad” because we are imperfect and used to sinning.

 

[Sir_Knight]

I just read through (finally!) the whole Chapter which talks about the visions of Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich’s of when Jesus descended into Hell (aka, the realm of the dead/Purgatory). Blessed Anne also interchangeably uses Hell as meaning Purgatory and vice versa. However, during her visions, she makes it pretty clear that Jesus went into Hell itself, where the damned and demons were, but it seems like He didn’t spend too much time there. Jesus, for the most part, seems to have, as is believed by Christians, freed those (and spoke to those) that were in Purgatory and Abraham’s Bosom. Blessed Anne also describes some of the events that took place as if having happened in but a moment’s time. Of course, what may have been but a moment’s time, could easily have been 3 days on Earth, as pure spirits are not bound by time. Also, I thought this part was interesting, so I’ll quote this and share with everyone:
“Our Lord, by descending into Hell, planted in the spiritual garden of the Church, a mysterious tree, the fruits of which – namely, his merits – are destined for the constant relief of the poor souls in Purgatory. The Church militant must cultivate the tree, and gather its fruits, in order to present them to that suffering portion of the Church which can do nothing for itself.”

Sir Knight, (and any other Catholics out there) if you have never read any of Blessed Anne’s books, they are certainly worth reading. She’s regarded as one of the greatest mystics to ever have lived. She was actually beatified by the late great John Paul II, whom himself was declared venerable by Pope Benedict XVI last month. Here’s a brief bio on her if anyone’s interested: newadvent.org/cathen/05406b.htm

I had heard a lot of Catholics preach this – that the rich man is in purgatory. I’ve actually found myself doing the same, but am not quite sure now after having read that sermon that SHW just posted, and especially what St. Thomas has said in his Summa Theologica: newadvent.org/summa/5098.htm#article4 Article 4, “Objection 1” and the “Reply to Objection 1.” I think what St. Thomas says in his last sentence on “Reply to Objection 1” is critical where he says “Yet he would rather that his brethren were damned as well as all the rest.”
If you don’t mind me asking, does it officially say within the teachings of the Church that the rich man is in fact, in purgatory? I searched the Catechism of the Catholic Church, but couldn’t find anything exclusive, as well as in my Navarre Bible which does a pretty good job with its comments after some of its passages.
I did find, however, L’Osservatore Romano, which is the newspaper of the Holy See, copied onto EWTN’s website: ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2heavn.htm
This also appears to have been what Venerable John Paul II had said in a Wednesday audience.
Take a look under the heading of “Hell is a state of eternal damnation,” he talks about the rich man. I’ll quote from there, “By using images, the New Testament presents the place destined for evildoers as a fiery furnace, where people will “weep and gnash their teeth” (Mt 13:42; cf. 25:30, 41), or like Gehenna with its “unquenchable fire” (Mk 9:43). All this is narrated in the parable of the rich man, which explains that hell is a place of eternal suffering, with no possibility of return, nor of the alleviation of pain (cf. Lk. 16:19-3 1).”

Now unless Venerable John Paul II is also wrong, it seems like there’s a good case for the rich man being in hell. However, if you know something somewhere where the church specifically treats/teaches the rich man as in being in purgatory, I’m all ears. :yup:

The mere fact that someone has been declared a Saint doesn’t mean their writings are worthy of belief. Far from it.

If this were so, then the fact of St Catherine of Siena’s canonisation means that HER writings - the ones in which she relates Our Lady telling her that she was NOT Immaculately Conceived - mean that these writings are worthy of belief. They clearly are not.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Jesus actually went to Hades, the abode of the dead which includes both Purgatory and Hell and it used to include Limbo or Abraham’s bosom. Since it was confusing to people, the Catholic Apostles’ Creed now reads, “He descended to the dead.” home.inreach.com/bstanley/creeds.htm

It is true that no one gets out of hell.

Those persons who had already atoned for their own personal sins before Jesus descended to the dead were in Abraham’s bosom also called Limbo Luke 16:22 and they were eager to see Him. Those who still were atoning for their personal sins were in Purgatory or Prison and Jesus went to preach to them before He arose again from the dead 1 Peter 3:18-20.

The rich man is in hell. There is a great gulf which cannot be breached between hell and Abraham’s bosom and between hell and purgatory.

Luke 16:25-26
But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

This great gulf is fixed forever. No one can ever get out of hell.

That’s way demons are able to walk the earth because “no one” can ever get out of hell

The “great gulf” can just as easily apply to all of the dimensions – between limbo (which the current Pope says does not exist) and purgatory.

 

[Sir_Knight]

I will try to explain it more clearly:

The two statements above that I put in bold type are very important; The damned desire to decrease their own suffering yet they also have a malicious desire to see others be damned.

When confronted with both of these two at the same time as in the case of the rich man and his brothers, the damned will selfishly choose to decrease their own suffering for eternity. If the rich man’s brothers are condemned, he believes that his own suffering will increase for eternity since he contributed to their sins/downfall from grace. He would prefer that they be saved than for himself to have to suffer more for eternity as a result of his own participation in their damnation. 1 Corinthians 15:33 This is why he begs Abraham for help. He selfishly wants to lessen his own suffering.

Luke 16:27-31
“Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

Your conclusions are not supported by reality …

• The damned desire to decrease their own suffering yet they also have a malicious desire to see others be damned. When confronted with both of these two at the same time as in the case of the rich man and his brothers, the damned will selfishly choose to decrease their own suffering for eternity.

They do NOT. Every soul that the devil or demon snares into hell increases their suffering but they do it anyway. The exact OPPOSITE of what you say. They prefer an increase of their own suffering in exchange for having another soul be lost.

The Rich Man preferred the OPPOSITE. He wanted his brothers to be saved even if it did nothing to ease his suffering – acting in a matter completely opposite to how those in hell act … showing that he was not in hell.

 

[Sir_Knight]

May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus. (2 Timothy 1:16-18)

Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing. (Timothy 4:8)

They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you. (2 Thessalonians 1:9-10)

As you said, he is talking about the day when Jesus will come; Matthew 25:31-46, to be more precise: the day of the judgment. Everyone is judged: saints and sinners. The saints are found blameless and the sinners guilty. But with the measure we use we will be measured. So I believe that if there is a little sin that we didn’t ask for forgiveness, but we forgave our brothers during our lifetime, since God uses our own “measure”, He will forgive you, and still be considered blameless. If you were strict with your brothers and sisters, so will God be with you because the measure you use you’ll be measured with. Perhaps that is why he is asking for mercy, so God will forgive any non-confessed sins. There are plenty or reasons, but that doesn’t prove purgatory.

We are judged at the time of death. Being immortal, the soul does not die. It has to go somewhere when the body dies. In order for it to go somewhere, a judgment has to take place. I refer you to Jesus promising the thief on His right (Luke 23:43) that he would be with Jesus that day in heaven.

I also refer you to Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

 

[Cristian_B]

We are judged at the time of death. Being immortal, the soul does not die. It has to go somewhere when the body dies. In order for it to go somewhere, a judgment has to take place. I refer you to Jesus promising the thief on His right (Luke 23:43) that he would be with Jesus that day in heaven.

I also refer you to Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

But the soul can sleep. If it sleeps it is not dead.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Where is it sleeping? In heaven or hell?

 

[Cristian_B]

Where is it sleeping? In heaven or hell?

Earth. Who says that it actually goes somewhere?