Purgatory or Heaven

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Carmelite1

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I hear comments all the time wherein people say that a deceased is “now in Heaven.” My problem with that is, I do not believe that everyone goes directly to Heaven upon death, even if they are without mortal sin.

I feel that in order to go straight to Heaven upon death a person would need to be a saint in life. Even without a mortal sin there are still venial sins to be purged.

I pray for a happy death; but realize that I will land in purgatory until the End.😊

I am not sure of the Church’s teaching and would appreciate comments.

:signofcross::heaven:
 
Carmelite1 said:
I hear comments all the time wherein people say that a deceased is “now in Heaven.” My problem with that is, I do not believe that everyone goes directly to Heaven upon death, even if they are without mortal sin.

I feel that in order to go straight to Heaven upon death a person would need to be a saint in life. Even without a mortal sin there are still venial sins to be purged.

I pray for a happy death; but realize that I will land in purgatory until the End.😊

I am not sure of the Church’s teaching and would appreciate comments.

:signofcross::heaven:
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You are of course right, it is assumed humbug.

Obviously it is said to console the living, especially children.
If your not so nice aunty dies would you tell her 8 year old daughter she is probably in purgatory or hell?

“Heaven” can also be used generically meaning “Sky” (which is the root meaning of the word). Just as “Hell” can be used generically for the Underworld (otherwise how could we say Jesus descended into Hell in the Creed).

“Sky” in this sense is ambiguous and really means no more than “non-material” which essentially is what happens at death. the spiritual soul is released from the “bonds” of dust.
 
Carmelite1 said:
I hear comments all the time wherein people say that a deceased is “now in Heaven.” My problem with that is, I do not believe that everyone goes directly to Heaven upon death, even if they are without mortal sin.

I feel that in order to go straight to Heaven upon death a person would need to be a saint in life. Even without a mortal sin there are still venial sins to be purged.

I pray for a happy death; but realize that I will land in purgatory until the End.😊

I am not sure of the Church’s teaching and would appreciate comments.

:signofcross::heaven:
Click to expand...
Yes of course you are right but if we make it to purgatory then we will make it to heaven. As you said we need to be purged of al lout impurities before entering heaven. Only those completely separated from God will not make it to purgatory or heaven. So when we say a loved one is “in heaven” ultimately it will be true.
 
Thank you - I do understand that I will make it to Heaven, eventually.
 
I was in a K of C honor guard at a wake this week. At the rosary service, the deacon stated that the deceased and his predeceased wife were both “together in heaven.” This scandalizes me. The very reason that we pray for the dead is on the chance that they are still in purgatory (where most people will visit before going to heaven, Our Lady had said). If we were sure that people were already in heaven, we would not need to pray for their souls. This is the Church’s constant practice.
 
Thank you Chatter. Your post makes me more sure of my feelings about Purgatory. I pray constantly for my deceased relations because I am hoping they are in Purgatory; and, I also pray for all the Faithful souls in Purgatory.
 
and it’s possible that Purgatory is not too long a process…thus, my signature could have been accurate quite soon after his sad passing.
 
cheezey said:
and it’s possible that Purgatory is not too long a process…thus, my signature could have been accurate quite soon after his sad passing.
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As there is no time there, it could mean that it could be “instantaneous” or “forever” (presumably ending at the end of earthly time).

I lean toward the 1st. I also lean toward the idea that you will get there, and “in a blink” all of your descendants/relatives/friends/everybody will be there. This would explain why the holy souls are truly happy–there is no “period” of separation for them–only for us here.
 
Luigi_Daniele said:
As there is no time there, it could mean that it could be “instantaneous” or “forever” (presumably ending at the end of earthly time).

I lean toward the 1st. I also lean toward the idea that you will get there, and “in a blink” all of your descendants/relatives/friends/everybody will be there. This would explain why the holy souls are truly happy–there is no “period” of separation for them–only for us here.
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Thank you for stating my thought more eloquently.
👍
 
Chatter163 said:
I was in a K of C honor guard at a wake this week. At the rosary service, the deacon stated that the deceased and his predeceased wife were both “together in heaven.” This scandalizes me. The very reason that we pray for the dead is on the chance that they are still in purgatory (where most people will visit before going to heaven, Our Lady had said). If we were sure that people were already in heaven, we would not need to pray for their souls. This is the Church’s constant practice.
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Agree.👍
 
Chatter163 said:
I was in a K of C honor guard at a wake this week. At the rosary service, the deacon stated that the deceased and his predeceased wife were both “together in heaven.” This scandalizes me. The very reason that we pray for the dead is on the chance that they are still in purgatory (where most people will visit before going to heaven, Our Lady had said). If we were sure that people were already in heaven, we would not need to pray for their souls. This is the Church’s constant practice.
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Let’s not assume time works the same way here as there.

Perhaps their stint in purgatory has been served and they move on that day.
Perhaps they perceived it to be years long.

I agree it is presumptuous to claim anyone to be in heaven (absent God’s revelation).

But this same presumption goes both ways.
 
vz71 said:
Let’s not assume time works the same way here as there.

Perhaps their stint in purgatory has been served and they move on that day.
Perhaps they perceived it to be years long.

I agree it is presumptuous to claim anyone to be in heaven (absent God’s revelation).

But this same presumption goes both ways.
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I assume nothing. I know that we do not know how long or short that someone stays in purgatory. The custom of the Church has always been to pray for souls at their funeral, and offer Masses for any deceased soul when someone requests such. On a practical level, people tend to be prayed for on earth as long as are there people left who remember them. If we offer prayers for someone who is already in heaven (or hell, for that matter), the prayers benefit some other soul who needs them.
 
Luigi_Daniele said:
As there is no time there, it could mean that it could be “instantaneous” or “forever” (presumably ending at the end of earthly time).

I lean toward the 1st. I also lean toward the idea that you will get there, and “in a blink” all of your descendants/relatives/friends/everybody will be there. This would explain why the holy souls are truly happy–there is no “period” of separation for them–only for us here.
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Yet, you will notice that the Church assigns periods of time to indulgences. This is because the purgation process, not being eternal, must be associated in some unknown way to time. If it were an eternal process, no soul would ever complete it and enter heaven. A temporal punishment can only be satisfied within, and therefore, must be related in some fashion to the passage of time.
 
Carmelite1 said:
I hear comments all the time wherein people say that a deceased is “now in Heaven.” My problem with that is, I do not believe that everyone goes directly to Heaven upon death, even if they are without mortal sin.

I feel that in order to go straight to Heaven upon death a person would need to be a saint in life. Even without a mortal sin there are still venial sins to be purged.

I pray for a happy death; but realize that I will land in purgatory until the End.😊

I am not sure of the Church’s teaching and would appreciate comments.

:signofcross::heaven:
Click to expand...
I would say everyone passed through purgatory for at least some cleansing. In order to be in heaven we have to be holy and blameless. Without sin nature. Even the Saints were purged in some way.

I think if someone is going through Purgatory they may as well be said to be in heaven. It’s a far cry from hell and a transformation for heaven.

It’s like if a room full of people were being selected for a luxury trip. Those not selected were thrown out and those selected were told to take a shower and journey to the airport before they leave.

Would we not say those on the journey were “winners of the vacation” even though they had not reached their final destination ?
 
po18guy said:
Yet, you will notice that the Church assigns periods of time to indulgences. This is because the purgation process, not being eternal, must be associated in some unknown way to time. If it were an eternal process, no soul would ever complete it and enter heaven. A temporal punishment can only be satisfied within, and therefore, must be related in some fashion to the passage of time.
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Regarding indulgences which specify a time frame, the following is from the Catholic Encyclopedia regarding Indulgences (emphasis mine):
God alone knows what penalty remains to be paid and what its precise amount is in severity and duration. Finally, some indulgences are granted in behalf of the living only, while others may be applied in behalf of the souls departed. It should be noted, however, that the application has not the same significance in both cases. The Church in granting an indulgence to the living exercises her jurisdiction; over the dead she has no jurisdiction and therefore makes the indulgence available for them by way of suffrage (per modum suffragii), i.e. she petitions God to accept these works of satisfaction and in consideration thereof to mitigate or shorten the sufferings of the souls in Purgatory.
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“Duration” and “shorten” clearly indicate that some element of the passage of time, yet unknown and not understood by the living, must be involved in the process.
 
po18guy said:
Regarding indulgences which specify a time frame, the following is from the Catholic Encyclopedia regarding Indulgences (emphasis mine): “Duration” and “shorten” clearly indicate that some element of the passage of time, yet unknown and not understood by the living, must be involved in the process.
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The duration is for us, not for them as there is no time there.😉
 
I am not questioning the assumption that those in Purgatory will be in Heaven at some point (possibly the end of time).

I do not believe our time in Purgatory will be a “blink of an eye” though as Luigi said.

So, it is in our best interest to live our lives as best we can - however long we will be in Purgatory we will be with God in the end.

As my family genealogist, not sure I need to be reunited with all my relatives.:o

:harp:
 
po18guy said:
Then, purgation is eternal. What about the time frame of the indulgence? If it is applied to the dead, how can time be applied to an eternal state?
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No not at all.

The time is merely a way for us to judge the spiritual benefit of different acts. For example saying the rosary might get you 3 days, but feeding the hungry 2 weeks.

That has nothing to do with time, but instead has to do with the degree of cleansing in ones soul.

According to Pope Benedict XVI encyclical Spe Salvi,

“Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ’s Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy.”

He describes it as a moment. And I believe that is accurate. Time is based by the rotation of the earth. Go to mars and a day is different. 24hr cycles are strictly for earth and not even relevant to other planets let alone heaven.
 
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