Then, how can the Church assign a precise period of time to a partial indulgence, when applied to a deceased soul? If we apply it to one who has died, and they are truly outside of time, the time period is indeed nonsensical. How can we apply 5 years to “a moment”? I don’t think that this section of Spe Salvi specifically addresses this point.
Because we have no understanding of the forward momentum of the afterlife that we might call time. So we do the best we can.
Not sure I see this “exchange” in Church teaching.
God is outside of time. We enter into a process as far as purgatory goes. Either this process is eternal and unchanging, or it is so instantaneous that we cannot notice it. How can either be true? Did you listen to Jimmy Akin’s explanation?
Gaining an indulgence for oneself is not primarily for oneself, but for the sake of justice. God is owed satisfaction for the temporal punishment that our sins have accrued. Entering heaven is indeed a benefit to us, but infintely more it is pleasing to God. We owe Him our presence in heaven so that we may offer praise that is eternal. We cannot do that if we do not enter into the Beatific vision. We know that once in His presence, there is no time - but - we are not in His presence while we are in purgation. We cannot say that there is no time (or something similar) in the purgation process.
Well if God is all powerful, eternal, the beginning and the end. The church says God is, he is not a being but is being itself.
No but I will listen when I’m done herding my 3 cats for the day.
In the afterlife there is a semblance of time but not time as we know it. The church teaches unequivocally that Purgatory is a transition not a place. Therefore it must be with God in someway as in eternity it is either with God or Absent of God.
Undisputed. What is questionable is whether or not He exchanges or converts our concept of time into some inscrutable process in the after life. Time, or something like it must be involved or else the Church erred in doctrine.
Agreed. Rather than considering God, aren’t we pondering what we experience in the purgation process?
I think it will help. Jimmy is the second source in which I have heard this. Fr. Barron was first, if I recall correctly.
What the Church is saying! I would add only “not time as we necessarily know it.”
Not alleging otherwise. It is a state of existence, but by its very definition is “temporary” (relating to time) rather than eternal.
Yet, we will be destroyed if we are in God’s presence with any form of impurity remaining in our souls. We are invited to the Father’s banquet, which is in His celestial “clean room”, but we are not allowed in until and unless we go through His mud room first. Clearly, we are not in His presence at the moment of death or else we would be destroyed, or burnt up or similar. Jesus, Who shares our human nature, and in Whose presence we may stand with sin on our souls, has been given all power of judgment. It is His judgment seat which we will face before we ever enjoy the Beatific vision - which is indeed eternal.
I agree with you, and hold both Akin and Barron in very high esteem on such matters. Looking forward to listening.
I watched the video and realized I had actually seen it before.
I had many questions on purgatory until I read Fire of Love. I highly recommend “Fire of Love”, by Saint Catherine of Genoa. This book set my mind at ease and is a book I recommend when asked about purgatory. If not for purgatory we all would be in Hell. We all sin…I hear comments all the time wherein people say that a deceased is “now in Heaven.” My problem with that is, I do not believe that everyone goes directly to Heaven upon death, even if they are without mortal sin.
I feel that in order to go straight to Heaven upon death a person would need to be a saint in life. Even without a mortal sin there are still venial sins to be purged.
I pray for a happy death; but realize that I will land in purgatory until the End.
I am not sure of the Church’s teaching and would appreciate comments.
:heaven:
It tends to show that, in some mysterious and not understood fashion, time (or something very like it) applies to the purgation process.
Agree, except I would say there is a purgatory since the church says there is, but yes it is part of heaven, the coat room of heaven perhaps, and we should stop viewing it as a sort of mild hell that we often envision.
I forget how I found it. If I remember correctly, Catholic is misspelled and it’s hard to find. If you’re interested, I’ll look
I dont see it on iPhone maybe it is Android only.
A priest who writes a public column answered the matter of “time” differently. He said that the “time” given to indulgences was related to the Early Church and the penances which would be given to sinners after confession, as their penance often amounted to a long time - if I recall from some other research, possibly up to 7 years. Which, coupled with the fact that time is a matter observed by physical bodies, it o=would not make much sense to tie it to “time” in purgatory.
This is what is stated in the link I posted. Thanks.
Ah. Sorry, not trying to steal your thunder. I spin through the posts to quickly some times.
Oh , no thunder stolen at all! I was glad to have the added discussion and offering a sincere thanks!
My priest mentioned this to me.I hear comments all the time wherein people say that a deceased is “now in Heaven.” My problem with that is, I do not believe that everyone goes directly to Heaven upon death, even if they are without mortal sin.
I feel that in order to go straight to Heaven upon death a person would need to be a saint in life. Even without a mortal sin there are still venial sins to be purged.
I pray for a happy death; but realize that I will land in purgatory until the End.
I am not sure of the Church’s teaching and would appreciate comments.
