Purgatory: punishment or purification?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Catherine_W
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

Catherine_W

Guest
Purgatory: punishment or purification?

That basically is my question. Is it punishment or purification or both? Also, how do our prayers help those in purgatory if they are going through a necessary cleansing process? Do our prayers make the cleansing process quicker without changing the effects? Also once people die and are in purgatory and/or heaven do they continue to have free will?

Thanks 🙂
 
I have to say I am looking forward to some thoughts on this question myself. I have never quite understood how if purgatory was about cleansing the soul from the attachment to sin, how do our prayers “speed” up the process, and how is it that the souls there no longer have the power to “help” themselves, but depend on our help?

And then there is the punishment, or the reparation. I don’t quite get how we can help souls with this either.

None of this makes sense to me that I could feel comfortable explaining it to someone who asks.
 
The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a “purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven,” which is experienced by those “who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified” (CCC 1030). It notes that “this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned” (CCC 1031).
Click to expand...
The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.
Click to expand...
catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp
 
I am not saying that I am the ultimate authority here, but my understanding is that Purgatory is a purification process. It is a state in which you are purified by fire. From what I have been told, it is the same fires as hell. One second in Purgatory (or hell) is worse than an entire lifetime of suffering. It is more justice than a “punishment”. Like I said, this is my humble opinion.

👍
 
Remember that we were born with the stain of Original Sin. It is sort of the same concept. We enter Purgatory to be purified of any sin that is still a stain on us. God can not tolerate the presence of sin. That is one reason why Satin was trown out of Heaven. Our prayers make the time faster for a simple reason. God can take as long as he wants to purify us. It could be long or short. That is up to him. I would not want to spend anytime in Purgatory. It is like someone who asleep at the wheel at a red light then it turns green. You politely honk the horn so he or she can speed up. I know that this is a poor metaphor, but it was the first thing to come to my mind. God speed.
 
book Catholicism for Dummies page 60:
But what if the persons lived a life not bad enough to warrant hell but not holy enough to go right to Heaven? Catholic believe that purgatory is a middle ground between Heaven and Earth. It’s a place of purgation, hence the name purgatory
Click to expand...
Purgation means: The act of purging or purifying {from dictionary.com}

This also might help explain purgatory:
book Catholicism for Dummies page 289:
It may help to think of purgatory in terms of a major operation to save a life. Say a doctor performs surgery on someone’s heart or brain and removes a cancerous tumor. The surgery achieves the main objective, but the wound needs to heal, and the incision needs to be cleaned and rebandaged. Purgatory is like that secondary part of recovery—the healing, cleaning and bandaging.
Click to expand...
The surgery (Christ’s passion) worked it removed the cancerous tumor (the sin). However the person still needs time in the recovery room (purgatory), before they can go home (Heaven).

Hell= No prayers can help them.
Heaven= Means they don’t need prayers.
Purgatory is the only place a person could be that the prayers would help them. (see 2 Maccabees 12:43-46)

In light of what I have read from the book: Catholicism for Dummies, I think of the prayers for the souls in purgatory as changing the bandages and cleaning the wounds so they can heal faster. Think about it a cut and scrap heals much faster when it is clean and cared for properly.

Also, think about those in a recovery room at a hospital they are depended on the nurses to come in and help change the bandages and clean the wounds. They are depended on the nurses to help care for them while they heal. The prayers for those in purgatory are “nurses” coming in to help. (That’s how I see it)
the book Catholicism for dummies page 291:
Catholics don’t see purgatory as a place of pain and torment. Instead, it’s considered a place of expectant joy, although suffering occurs from the temporary distance. Imagine being in a room with a door that has no handle or knob on your side. You can hear the joy and merriment on the other side, smell the good food, and hear the music and laughter, but you can’t see any of the faces or distinguish voices and aromas. You’re close by yet far enough away to feel the pain of not being on the other side. Yet you know that you aren’t ready yet. Your clothes are dirty and wrinkled, your hair’s a mess, and you need to shave and brush your teeth. Why all this preparation? Catholic’s believe that God and heaven are worth it.
Click to expand...
Also the Church does teach that Not everyone goes to purgatory. It is possible for a person to be purged and purified in this life.

Finally, we talk about purgatory being a “place”. However, it’s really not a “place” like a house. Purgatory is the spiritual state of the person’s soul. Those “in purgatory” are in a cleansing and healing process. They will definitely and absolutely go to heaven, just not yet. They will get to Heaven once the wounds from sin are completely healed.
 
Thanks for your replies, but they have brought some more questions to me.
  1. What exactly is temporal punishment?
  2. How do indulgences impact time in purgatory? I have read they would equate to time of prayer on earth, but I still am a bit confused.
  3. And why does God not purify people in purgatory at the fastest speed possible? Why does he wish four our prayers to increase the healing? (and I understand this may be a question only God can answer)
Thank you all so much! 🙂

Also, I was wondering still about the souls in purgatory’s free will, can they also pray to God to speed up their purification process?
 
Vicia said:
I am not saying that I am the ultimate authority here, but my understanding is that Purgatory is a purification process. It is a state in which you are purified by fire. From what I have been told, it is the same fires as hell. One second in Purgatory (or hell) is worse than an entire lifetime of suffering. It is more justice than a “punishment”. Like I said, this is my humble opinion.

👍
Click to expand...
Purgatory IS NOT Hell or Spiritual Jail. Those in purgatory want to be in purgatory because they know they have leftover attachment to the sin and they want that removed. However at the same time they have sorrow because they want to be in Heaven. They are torn.

Have you ever had to visit a baby in NICU?? If you have you know that you just can’t walk into the NICU as the way you are. You have to put on a gown and wash your hands. Some times you have to put on a hair net and a mask. It’s frustrating because all you want to do is get in the NICU and hold the baby, but you can’t you have to make sure you are prepared first. (So that’s the pain). However you are happy to do it because once you are ready, once your hands are clean, gown is on, hair net, mask etc you can enter the NICU. (So that’s the joy).

Preparing to enter a NICU is not hell and by no means is it a jail.
That’s just another way to view purgatory.

I never, got purgatory, until after my baby was born and had to spend the first weeks of her life in NICU.

There was pain, because I just could not walk in and hold her whenever I wanted I had to make sure I was ready first. I had to put on a gown, wash my hands and arms, put on a mask and hair net just to hold my baby. It at times was painful to have to do all of that, because I just wanted to be there faster, but I couldn’t I had to make sure I was prepared first. I had to make sure I was “clean” before entering the NICU.

However, at the same time I was happy to do it, because I knew once I was “clean” and prepared I could go into the NICU and see my baby. I could hold my baby, touch my baby, talk to my baby, etc.

It wasn’t until after my baby was born was I able to understand purgatory more. I could see how the soul in purgatory wanted to be there. After all I wanted to prepare myself to enter the NICU to see my baby.

If I was willing to do all that just to see baby, and be in the NICU with her. Why wouldn’t I be willing to prepare myself to see God and be in Heaven with him?
 
Catherine_W said:
Thanks for your replies, but they have brought some more questions to me.
  1. What exactly is temporal punishment?
  2. How do indulgences impact time in purgatory? I have read they would equate to time of prayer on earth, but I still am a bit confused.
  3. And why does God not purify people in purgatory at the fastest speed possible? Why does he wish four our prayers to increase the healing? (and I understand this may be a question only God can answer)
Thank you all so much! 🙂

Also, I was wondering still about the souls in purgatory’s free will, can they also pray to God to speed up their purification process?
Click to expand...
I believe that yes those in purgatory can pray to God, Rev 5:8 and Rev 8:3-4 talks about the Elder and Angels in Heaven handing over the prayers of the holy ones to God. In my opinon if the Elders and the Angels can offer prayers to God for others so can those in purgatory.

Clearly if they are in Heaven they don’t need prayers for themselves, so they pray for others, however those in purgatory need prayers so I believe they can pray for help from God.

As why does God need the prayers from us to help those in purgatory?? Well let me ask you why does God need you to pray for your co-worker to get better? Why does God need you to pray for the lady that has cancer and is hoping to get better?
 
Catherine_W said:
Thanks for your replies, but they have brought some more questions to me.
  1. What exactly is temporal punishment?
  2. How do indulgences impact time in purgatory? I have read they would equate to time of prayer on earth, but I still am a bit confused.
  3. And why does God not purify people in purgatory at the fastest speed possible? Why does he wish four our prayers to increase the healing? (and I understand this may be a question only God can answer)
Thank you all so much! 🙂

Also, I was wondering still about the souls in purgatory’s free will, can they also pray to God to speed up their purification process?
Click to expand...
The understanding is that souls in Purgatory cannot pray for themselves, because they are learning to be selfless. I’m not sure I believe this.

God doesn’t choose to create a world in which human action is of no value. Hence our prayers, like our works of mercy, are effective, even if ultimately they cannot change the fate of a soul.

People who experience love find it much more easy to love others. That is not to say that an orphan from an abusive background cannot become a selfless, loving person, however statistically he is much more likely to end up in jail having committed some terrible crime. If souls in Purgatory are aware of prayers said for them, that knowledge, by itself, could speed their admisson to heaven, with no other divine intervention required.
 
How would I explain to 7th graders why Purgatory is needed after Christ’s perfect sacrifice and suffering on the cross paid for our sins?
 
I was once told that we do not know of the time it may take for purification–it very likely could happen within the blink of an eye. Also, (bear with me here), God is not limited by space and time, and neither are your prayers. For example, you are at work and your best friend is killed in a car accident. You find out a few hours later. You immediately pray for your friend. Those prayers are applied by God to the time your friend’s earthly life ended, to assist him/her on the journey. 🙂
 
Catherine_W said:
Purgatory: punishment or purification?

That basically is my question. Is it punishment or purification or both?

Both

Also, how do our prayers help those in purgatory if they are going through a necessary cleansing process?

Because grace has the ability to help those in Purgatory just as it has the ability to help those on earth. We pray in accordance with Gods will and He is gracious towards those whom the prayers are directed based upon the merits of the cross.

Do our prayers make the cleansing process quicker without changing the effects?

Try to stop thinking of time in Purgatory - it is a process more than an amount of time. The effects are the same - the person is perfectly purified - again, based upon the passion of Christ.

Also once people die and are in purgatory and/or heaven do they continue to have free will?

yes, but it is a free will perfectly conformed to the will of God - like Jesus, did he have a free will on earth? Yes he did, but it was perfectly conformed to the Father. This is speculation on my part, but a free will is a good thing and is part of the image/likeness of God. In heaven, we are more perfectly conformed to the image and likeness of God so it only makes sense that we would retain our will, but it will be perfected.

Thanks 🙂
Click to expand...
 
book Catholicism for Dummies page 367-368:
A plenary indulgence is total remission of the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven in confession. Simply put, it’s an application of God’s divine mercy to remove the effects of past sin. An indulgence isn’t forgiveness itself nor is it absolution; It presupposes both before it can happen. Sin can have 2 consequences eternal punishment (hell) or temporal punishment (purgatory), Unrepentant and unforgiven mortal sin results in eternal punishment. Forgiven sin are free form eternal punishment, but they retain a temporal punishment. It’s God’s mercy that forgives sin, but it’s God’s justice that rewards good and punishes evil.

Think of it this way. If a surgeon operates on you to remove a malignant tumor, which could kill you, she’ll make an incision on your body. After removing the deadly tumor, she stitches you up. You’re healed of the life-threatening cancer buy the wound of the incision still needs to heal and in time the stitches must be removed. Sin is like a spiritual disease, and mortal sin is like a malignant tumor, which must be removed as soon as possible. Indulgences are merely like removing the stitches over the already healed wound.
Click to expand...
These articles may also help.
Purgatory {click here}
Indulgence {click here}
Sin {click here}
Absolution {click here}
 
Here’s an anology I thought to use with my 7th graders.

The sacrifice of Jesus on the cross made available to us an ocean of mercy that was not there before. When we sin we must go to that ocean scoop out the water and cleanse ourselves.

Therefore the sacrifice makes the mercy available but we must still do our part to recieve forgiveness.

However, despite the mercy we have been shown there are still consequences to sin. You can be forgiven but still must serve your pennance in this life or the next (purgatory).

Does this work?
 
Mommyof02green said:
Purgatory IS NOT Hell or Spiritual Jail. Those in purgatory want to be in purgatory because they know they have leftover attachment to the sin and they want that removed. However at the same time they have sorrow because they want to be in Heaven. They are torn.
Click to expand...
Purgatory is not hell, but there is a concensus among the church fathers and saints that the suffering of the holy souls in Purgatory is very similar to those in hell. This is what I meant when I said that it was the same fires as hell. I meant symbolically that the fires represent the absence of God. Many fathers and saints propose that in Purgatory the holy souls suffer from a block between themselves and God in which they are completely aware of. This leads to their purification. They are purified by their longing for complete communion with God. The suffering is their awarness of that separation and that it is the result of their own selfish sins. They want to be in Purgatory because they can not stand the thought of being before God while still bearing the temporal punishment for their own sins. Still, as many fathers express, it would be far better to suffer on earth than to suffer in Purgatory.

😃
 
Catherine_W said:
Thanks for your replies, but they have brought some more questions to me.
  1. What exactly is temporal punishment?
Click to expand...
When you think of temporal, think of other time-based words like temporary or tempo. There are two fundamental kinds of punishment: eternal and temporal. Ethernal punishment is easy for most everyone to understand - permanent separation from God in hell. Temporal punishment on the other hand is something of a temporary punishment. In 2 Sam 12, David repents for his sin that he committed, and though God forgives him, David is punished by his son dying. We also find reference to the temporary purification of Purgatory in the New Testament such as in 1 Cor 3:15. " … the person will be saved, but only as through fire." My opinion on the first question asked is that Purgatory is purification through temporal punishment (in effect, both). We have the option to “pay me now or pay me later” by confessing on earth, and remitting our temporal punishment now through penance. Or we can wait until the afterlife and remit it through Purgatory.
  1. How do indulgences impact time in purgatory? I have read they would equate to time of prayer on earth, but I still am a bit confused.
Click to expand...
I believe that I am telling you this correctly, but at one time, it was believed that “time” in Purgatory was like time on Earth. While no one would know how much “time” one’s soul would spend in Purgatory, the remission (doing away with) of temporal punishment was dispensed in days, weeks, months, or even years. So it was thought that by performing some act of mortification now, it would equate to some time off in Purgatory, either for your own soul (for when you later die), or for someone else that had died. But there is really no such thing as time in eternity, so indulgences are either partial or plenary. That is, they remit part of the temporal punishment (partial), or all of it (plenary).
  1. And why does God not purify people in purgatory at the fastest speed possible? Why does he wish four our prayers to increase the healing? (and I understand this may be a question only God can answer)
Click to expand...
You are probably correct in that only God could answer this, but I think of it like I might for washing my hands. Sometimes, it just takes a little water to clean them. Other times, it takes soap, brushes, and a lot of scrubbing in hot water to get them clean. How dirty is your soul?
Also, I was wondering still about the souls in purgatory’s free will, can they also pray to God to speed up their purification process?
Click to expand...
I have never heard of this being possible, but I don’t know for sure. I doubt that they can, so do it now!
 
I’ve heard the burn ward analogy–the sin in your life is like third degree burns. We are saved, meaning that the hospitals efforts (God’s grace) saved you, but part of the recovery is removing the scar tissue. Meaning dermabrasion–meaning an awful lot of (necessary) pain.

Scott
 
On Living His Life Abundantly yesterday on EWTN, the guest speaker was Susan Tassone, who has written several books on this subject. She was led into a ministry of service to the Holy Souls and her mission is to educate the Catholic laity on the acts of charity in praying for these souls. It was a very interesting program and I’m going to order one of her books. The timing was perfect for this discussion and I want to learn more. She did a lot of research on the teachings of the Church on Purgatory and what the thoughts have been through the centuries concerning the Souls there and our effective prayers for their benefit.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top