Purgatory: Purification or Punishment?

[Adelheid]

To my knowledge, which is admittedly just a whole lot of Catholic school, Purgatory was to cleanse the soul after death but before you got into Heaven. It was not punishment, but it hurts. Think of it, as spiritual as we want to be we are still creatures of the earth with earthly bodies and desires. All this is cleansed away in Purgatory and it probably hurts, but it is the pain of giving up a bad habit or the burn you feel going to the gym. It hurts, but you are joyful because you are doing something good.
Am I making any sense?
Adel

 

[brownjt]

To my knowledge, which is admittedly just a whole lot of Catholic school, Purgatory was to cleanse the soul after death but before you got into Heaven. It was not punishment, but it hurts. Think of it, as spiritual as we want to be we are still creatures of the earth with earthly bodies and desires. All this is cleansed away in Purgatory and it probably hurts, but it is the pain of giving up a bad habit or the burn you feel going to the gym. It hurts, but you are joyful because you are doing something good.
Am I making any sense?
Adel

How about the the thought of leaving you loved ones? How about looking back - or down - maybe in a millosecond- and seeing the people you have loved and lived for still here and in pain, etc? Then Jesus takes you by the hand - and cleanses you of this last attachment - that is a purifying loss - but a loss and painful but cleansing. The worst part is here on earth and staying and suffering that human loss. Maybe God makes up for that in the very end and that is the fire?

 

[SyCarl]

The Catholic Church certainly teaches that Purgatory unless it teaches that the canons from the Council of Trent are not infallible.

CANON XXX.-If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema.

history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/trentall.html

I also fail to see how it can be corrective discipline when it occurs after death when we cannot change our ways in response.

 

[Adelheid]

can I just say that i love you brownjt cause you can say what I want to say, only it makes sense. Hmm, can i hire you or something?
adel-

 

[angeljeanr]

can i just say that i admire all of your well thought out answers and your understanding of the Word of God. I am just begining my journey, please pray for me that I may be able to understand as everyone here has demonstrated so eloquently. Thank you

 

[LVP]

Question - my friend’s Confirmation students wanted to know if the people in purgatory can pray for us or do we only pray for them or both?

 

[bjohnlyons]

Is Purgatory purification or punishment.?

In a sense it does not matter. The soul discovers that the All-Powerful Omniscient God is an entity of such sublime beauty and vulnerability (he humbly lets down his defenses because “God so loved the world that he sent his only son to redeem it, that all who believe in him may have eternal life.”) Not just the perfect, not just the saintly, but all who believe in him… When the true believer comes face to face with such universe shattering love as he or she never dreamed of in life, their first thought has to be “how can I be worthy of such love?” I believe that the newly born soul to eternal life, including even the most heroically saintly, cannot accept his or her worthiness to have such immediate personal contact with This Divine Creator. Therefore, each newly deceased person seeks, of their own volition, to prepare themselves for that eternal beatitude of love. So each humble soul, of its own volition, with the merciful and loving acquiescence of the Divine, withdraws spiritually to a place of solitude where it can, through the voluntary acceptance of its unworthiness, finally prepare itself for that Eternal Agape. God loves us so much, that faced with its reality, no one, even the most recalcitrant sinner, can prevail against it. So the irreconcilable reprobate flees while every penitent pilgrim punishes or purifies itself by a self selected abnegation of paradise until he or she is convinced by the God of heaven and earth that their own unworthiness, after all, has been finally and gloriously vanquished by His overpowering love.

 

[angeljeanr]

Question - my friend’s Confirmation students wanted to know if the people in purgatory can pray for us or do we only pray for them or both?

According to St. Faustina, those in purgatory pray but to no avail. “they were praying fervently, but to no avail, for themselves; only we can come to their aid” V#20 from the Diary of St. Faustina, Divine Mercy in My Soul.

 

[Jimmytwoguns]

Angeljeanr

You say you have only started on your journey, but believe me, we all have. The humble and gentle tone of your post is a lesson to others ( I mean me).

Jimmy Two Guns

 

[mardukm]

Is Purgatory for purification or for punishment?

I’ve heard some priests say that Purgatory is just the stage through which we go to so we could be pure enough to get into heaven, and that it isn’t meant for punishment. The “purge” in “purgatory” would seem to imply that too.

But I was reading Saint Faustina’s Diary and it records Jesus talking about Purgatory being retribution. It seems to imply that it is temporary punishment for our sins.

There’s also a Marian devotion wherein Mary would deliver special devotees from purgatory (I think on the first Saturday after their death?). That also would seem to imply that purgatory is punishment and retribution, since the tone of it seems more as if Mary is delivering us from the punishment rather than just purifying us.

So what’s purgatory for? Punishment or purification?

Permit me to offer an Oriental Catholic perspective (I come from an Oriental Orthodox background).

Like Latins, Orientals often speak of the Divine Justice. Whenever we sin, we need to make reparation. But the reparation is not for the effect of our sin on the world, but for the effect of our sin on OURSELVES.

In Oriental Christianity (Catholic or Orthodox - btw, not to be confused with Eastern Christianity), all “punishment” is intended by God for the sake of holiness, as the book of Hebrews explicitly teaches us. “Punishment” is a means to holiness, and the two can never be separated in God’s purpose.

I think the problem that Orientals and Easterns have with the Latin concept is that Latins (at least in its language) seem to present God as some kind Being who exacts karma - an eye for an eye. I’ve heard of temporal punishment often being explained in terms of the broken window that needs to be repaired even though the owner has forgiven the act. This imagery, it seems to me, is inappropriate in trying to describe the real purpose of temporal punishment, as it places the focus on the act instead of the actor. Temporal punishment is meant to “repair” (hence, the term “reparation”) the PERSON who sins, not to “repair” the external damage done by the act. That the external damage done by the act is “repaired” is only a collateral effect of the real purpose behind temporal punishment - which, as already stated, is for the purpose of “repairing” the PERSON. But it does not seem like the popular anecdotes of Latin Catholicism accurately reflects this.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[chris_molter]

Question - my friend’s Confirmation students wanted to know if the people in purgatory can pray for us or do we only pray for them or both?

The Church hasn’t spoken definitively on the matter AFAIK. Opinions vary, but seem to tend towards the negative (ala St Faustina)

 

[inkaneer]

The Catholic Church certainly teaches that Purgatory unless it teaches that the canons from the Council of Trent are not infallible.

history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/trentall.html

I also fail to see how it can be corrective discipline when it occurs after death when we cannot change our ways in response.

Scripture says of heaven that nothing unclean shall enter it. Purgatory is like the doormat to heaven where we clean off our shoes before entering. Bad analogy probably but 1 Cor 3:12-15 then makes sense as to why a saved person undergoes a purifying fire to purge himself of the unrighteousness and in the process make himself clean. It is not a second chance for the person is already judged to be saved.

 

[brownjt]

Is Purgatory purification or punishment.?

In a sense it does not matter. The soul discovers that the All-Powerful Omniscient God is an entity of such sublime beauty and vulnerability (he humbly lets down his defenses because “God so loved the world that he sent his only son to redeem it, that all who believe in him may have eternal life.”) Not just the perfect, not just the saintly, but all who believe in him… When the true believer comes face to face with such universe shattering love as he or she never dreamed of in life, their first thought has to be “how can I be worthy of such love?” I believe that the newly born soul to eternal life, including even the most heroically saintly, cannot accept his or her worthiness to have such immediate personal contact with This Divine Creator. Therefore, each newly deceased person seeks, of their own volition, to prepare themselves for that eternal beatitude of love. So each humble soul, of its own volition, with the merciful and loving acquiescence of the Divine, withdraws spiritually to a place of solitude where it can, through the voluntary acceptance of its unworthiness, finally prepare itself for that Eternal Agape. God loves us so much, that faced with its reality, no one, even the most recalcitrant sinner, can prevail against it. So the irreconcilable reprobate flees while every penitent pilgrim punishes or purifies itself by a self selected abnegation of paradise until he or she is convinced by the God of heaven and earth that their own unworthiness, after all, has been finally and gloriously vanquished by His overpowering love.

The protestants (of which i am still one by going through RCIA) have a simple message: Accept Christ and go to heaven or do not and go to Hell…If the uninformed view purgatory as a punishment not a purfication - then your faith (amd mine soon) loses many many many people because of that message. And I understand that the pews of the evangelical churches are filled with former catholics. I think it is a message issue. Finally, Satan will use this to distort what the church actually believes in. Not that the protestant message is wrong. Maybe…Satan realizes that waht the fullness of the faith means and is doing whatever he can to distort it.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I think one might compare Purgatory to debriding a wound or burn - painful but necessary to healing.

 

[steve_b]

The protestants (of which i am still one by going through RCIA) have a simple message: Accept Christ and go to heaven or do not and go to Hell…If the uninformed view purgatory as a punishment not a purfication - then your faith (amd mine soon) loses many many many people because of that message. And I understand that the pews of the evangelical churches are filled with former catholics. I think it is a message issue. Finally, Satan will use this to distort what the church actually believes in. Not that the protestant message is wrong. Maybe…Satan realizes that waht the fullness of the faith means and is doing whatever he can to distort it.

Just a comment. Purification and/or punishment aren’t mutually exclusive or contradictory to each other.

Temporal punishment for sin

Here are 2 examples.

Hebrews 12:5-17:

5 And have you forgotten the exhortation which addresses you as sons? --“My son,** do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished** ἐλέγχω elegchō ]by him. 6 For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.” 7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but** he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. **11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. 12 Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. 14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness ἁγιασμός hagiasmos ] without which no one will see the Lord. 15 **See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” spring up and cause trouble, and by it the many become defiled; 16 that no one be immoral or irreligious like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, **for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

meaning of ἐλέγχω elegchō
to chasten, to punish

meaning of ἁγιασμός hagiasmos
1) consecration, purification
2) the effect of consecration
a) sanctification of heart and life

1 Cor 3: 10-

each one should be careful how he builds. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss ζημιόω zēmioō ] ; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

The meaning of zēmioō

1) to affect with damage, do damage to
2) to sustain damage, to receive injury, suffer loss

i.e. punished

Tense: Future
Voice: passive (it’s done to you )
Mood: Indicative, i.e. it’s FACT. It WILL happen

There is no scripture that says this action on the soul by God, ends at death and that this process does NOT continue. We know punishment is permanent in hell.

Purgatory is only for a time. But it’s God’s mercy on the soul that dies in friendship with God, and it is for our own good and holiness that we are chastised and purified as His children. Without it we are NOT His children, and can’t see Him or be with Him as scripture says. [Heb 12:14]

As an aside, Luther wanted to ditch Hebrews as a NT book.

 

[brownjt]

Just a comment. Purification and/or punishment aren’t mutually exclusive or contradictory to each other.

Temporal punishment for sin

Here are 2 examples.

Hebrews 12:5-17:

5 And have you forgotten the exhortation which addresses you as sons? --“My son,** do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished** ἐλέγχω elegchō ]by him. 6 For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.” 7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but** he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. **11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. 12 Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. 14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness ἁγιασμός hagiasmos ] without which no one will see the Lord. 15 **See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” spring up and cause trouble, and by it the many become defiled; 16 that no one be immoral or irreligious like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, **for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

meaning of ἐλέγχω elegchō
to chasten, to punish

meaning of ἁγιασμός hagiasmos
1) consecration, purification
2) the effect of consecration
a) sanctification of heart and life

1 Cor 3: 10-

each one should be careful how he builds. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss ζημιόω zēmioō ] ; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

The meaning of zēmioō

1) to affect with damage, do damage to
2) to sustain damage, to receive injury, suffer loss

i.e. punished

Tense: Future
Voice: passive (it’s done to you )
Mood: Indicative, i.e. it’s FACT. It WILL happen

There is no scripture that says this action on the soul by God, ends at death and that this process does NOT continue. We know punishment is permanent in hell.

Purgatory is only for a time. But it’s God’s mercy on the soul that dies in friendship with God, and it is for our own good and holiness that we are chastised and purified as His children. Without it we are NOT His children, and can’t see Him or be with Him as scripture says. [Heb 12:14]

As an aside, Luther wanted to ditch Hebrews as a NT book.

 

[brownjt]

My soul is not made of any of these items. This is a metaphor of the time that effectively states how God has tested what men have done , said etc.

Show me please where this passage in COR alludes to those saved or unsaved - and, let us put the passage in context as well. Jesus through his saving grace and his sacraments saves each one of us - if we choose. His salvation may equal purgatory but meant as a purification not a punishment.

Are their any of us here that would dare say we are ready or worthy if asked purg or heaven? I believe that the parable of the Good Samaritan shows us who will by go straight to heaven and who will not…the poor samaritan who crys to Jesus - in my heart;s mind - he will get the pass and will have been purified through his faith !

 

[steve_b]

My soul is not made of any of these items. This is a metaphor of the time that effectively states how God has tested what men have done , said etc.

Show me please where this passage in COR alludes to those saved or unsaved -

Did you miss this section?

15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss ζημιόω zēmioō ] ; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

The meaning of zēmioō

1) to affect with damage, do damage to
2) to sustain damage, to receive injury, suffer loss

i.e. punished

Tense: Future
Voice: passive (it’s done to you )
Mood: Indicative, i.e. it’s FACT. It WILL happen
brown:

and, let us put the passage in context as well. Jesus through his saving grace and his sacraments saves each one of us - if we choose. His salvation may equal purgatory but meant as a purification not a punishment.

Did you miss the Greek words used in those passages I highlighted that talked of both punishment and purification in the same passages?
brown:

Are their any of us here that would dare say we are ready or worthy if asked purg or heaven? I believe that the parable of the Good Samaritan shows us who will by go straight to heaven and who will not…the poor samaritan who crys to Jesus - in my heart;s mind - he will get the pass and will have been purified through his faith !

Minds and hearts need to be properly formed.

You’re not addressing the passages I gave.

 

[Genesis315]

Permit me to offer an Oriental Catholic perspective (I come from an Oriental Orthodox background).

Like Latins, Orientals often speak of the Divine Justice. Whenever we sin, we need to make reparation. But the reparation is not for the effect of our sin on the world, but for the effect of our sin on OURSELVES.

In Oriental Christianity (Catholic or Orthodox - btw, not to be confused with Eastern Christianity), all “punishment” is intended by God for the sake of holiness, as the book of Hebrews explicitly teaches us. “Punishment” is a means to holiness, and the two can never be separated in God’s purpose.

I think the problem that Orientals and Easterns have with the Latin concept is that Latins (at least in its language) seem to present God as some kind Being who exacts karma - an eye for an eye. I’ve heard of temporal punishment often being explained in terms of the broken window that needs to be repaired even though the owner has forgiven the act. This imagery, it seems to me, is inappropriate in trying to describe the real purpose of temporal punishment, as it places the focus on the act instead of the actor. Temporal punishment is meant to “repair” (hence, the term “reparation”) the PERSON who sins, not to “repair” the external damage done by the act. That the external damage done by the act is “repaired” is only a collateral effect of the real purpose behind temporal punishment - which, as already stated, is for the purpose of “repairing” the PERSON. But it does not seem like the popular anecdotes of Latin Catholicism accurately reflects this.

Blessings,
Marduk

I think all Catholics should be able to agree with this explanation. I am thorougly a Latin Catholic, but that is how I have come to understand it. Archbishop Fulton Sheen explained it that way too as has the current Roman Pontiff.

 

[brownjt]

Did you miss this section?

15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss ζημιόω zēmioō ] ; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

The meaning of zēmioō

1) to affect with damage, do damage to
2) to sustain damage, to receive injury, suffer loss

i.e. punished

Tense: Future
Voice: passive (it’s done to you )
Mood: Indicative, i.e. it’s FACT. It WILL happen

Did you miss the Greek words used in those passages I highlighted that talked of both punishment and purification in the same passages?

Minds and hearts need to be properly formed.

You’re not addressing the passages I gave.

Thanks. But why does the catholic faith use this passage to refer to “purgatory”. I am not sure that protestants would even apply this passage to that. Was Paul amplifying on something that for the listeners about this concept" I understand that 'PUR" is described in a book of the catholic Bible? Is there a sense of then feeling that one would have there - a feeling of loss - joy to come? Protestants seem to emphasize the “punishment” aspect of this - maybe as way to steer their flock away. I am new to the whole concept.