Purgatory: Purification or Punishment?

[steve_b]

Thanks. But why does the catholic faith use this passage to refer to “purgatory”.

Here’s the passage again. (emphasis mine)

1 Cor 3:10-15

But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss ζημιόω zēmioō ] ; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through fire.

As I posted before,
The meaning of zēmioō

1) to affect with damage, do damage to
2) to sustain damage, to receive injury, suffer loss

i.e. punishment

So Paul is saying to all of us,

• our work will go through judgement
• on the DAY when it will be revealed by fire.
• And THAT fire will test the quality of each persons work.
• The DAY is in the furure, refering to judgement.
• If what we’ve done is acceptable to God it will survive the fire and we will receive a reward.
• But if it doesn’t, THAT work will be burned up and we will receive punishment even though we will be saved but only as one going through fire.
  You can’t mistake what’s going on here…right?

The Greek word I gave also means punish. And it has the following vocabulary construction

Tense: Future
Voice: passive (it’s done to you )
Mood: Indicative, i.e. it’s FACT. It WILL happen

When you see “fire” in these passages the Greek word is **πῦρ pyr ** which means literal fire

And as you see in these passages, fire destroys, AND also burns away dross without destroying, i.e. it purifies.

So you see within this passage, you have punishment AND purification being spoken of, wwhen one goes through judgement.

Catholics call this process purgation, or purgatory.
brown:

I am not sure that protestants would even apply this passage to that.

With all due respect,

• they don’t have the apostolic faith either
• And did you see the word I highlighted above zēmioō? The mood of the word is indicative which means it WILL happen.

brown:

Was Paul amplifying on something that for the listeners about this concept" I understand that 'PUR" is described in a book of the catholic Bible?

As you can see, I quoted from 2 NT books. They have those books too.
brown:

Is there a sense of then feeling that one would have there - a feeling of loss - joy to come? Protestants seem to emphasize the “punishment” aspect of this - maybe as way to steer their flock away. I am new to the whole concept.

This passage from Paul cuts in another way also. Look at what Paul says in the very passage we’re talking about…

"no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ." [1 Cor 3:11]

Catch that? Jesus laid the foundation. No one can lay anyother. The Catholic Church is what Jesus already founded. . Jesus laid that foundation. Protestants aren’t building on THAT foundation, the one Jesus founded. They divided and are doing their own thing.

Since we’re talking about this passage, and the foundation already laid by Jesus, let’s consider something else regarding this. Protesatants split from Rome, and laid a foundation of divisions to the tune of 10’s of thousands of differing factions. Many turning their sights back on the Catholic Church to attack or take pot shots. Here’s what Paul says about those who divide .

Rm 16:

17I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil

 

[inkaneer]

Thanks. But why does the catholic faith use this passage to refer to “purgatory”. I am not sure that protestants would even apply this passage to that. Was Paul amplifying on something that for the listeners about this concept" I understand that 'PUR" is described in a book of the catholic Bible? Is there a sense of then feeling that one would have there - a feeling of loss - joy to come? Protestants seem to emphasize the “punishment” aspect of this - maybe as way to steer their flock away. I am new to the whole concept.

Let’s be clear here. The passage in Corinthians talks first of all of a soul who is already saved. Yet this saved soul undergoes a purifying fire and suffers loss. Tell me, where is this idea of a saved soul undergoing such a fire in any sola scriptura denomination? I don’t know of any. In the sola scriptura denominations the only fire is hell fire and no saved soul under goes that. In addition the sola scripturists want to picture this as a form of second chance at salvation. But the text is clear. The soul is already saved. Now, you say that you are not sure that sola scripturists what would apply this passage to purgatory. I am sure they won’t since they deny the existence of any such purgation. So the question is where in sola scripturist theology is this fire for the saved soul?

 

[VociMike]

I have a question especially for the Protestants here (but of course anybody is welcome to comment). What exactly is the ideal of punishment? Not the distortions that we as fallen creatures may have twisted it into, but the ideal? That is just another way of asking, what does God, who is perfect, desire from any punishment he may inflict upon us?

 

[Holly3278]

In my opinion, purgatory is more of a place of purification than it is a place of punishment. I wouldn’t know that it is a place of punishment at all. Purification can sometimes be a painful process.

 

[angeljeanr]

jimmytwoguns,

Thank you for your kind and encouraging words. I hope to be able to shed the light of God into the world, so I pray that God grant me the grace to have understanding and knowledge of his word.
Thank you again!

 

[VociMike]

In my opinion, purgatory is more of a place of purification than it is a place of punishment. I wouldn’t know that it is a place of punishment at all. Purification can sometimes be a painful process.

What’s the difference between God’s punishment and God’s purification?

 

[SeanTom]

PURGATORY

Purgatory is much talked about between Catholics and Protestants. Some Protestants consider purgatory to be anti-Scriptural and outright blasphemous. To most Protestants, purgatory is a second chance at salvation, and clearly un-Biblical.

On the other hand, not all Catholics are in agreement of purgatory because they have been taught that (a) it could last a long, long time; (b)) it is very unpleasant; and © they will more than likely have to spend time there when they die instead of going directly to Heaven. Purgatory has been described by some as “Hell that you get out of”. If that were true, it would be no surprise that many Catholics end up leaving for seemingly “greener pastures”! Both of these reactions are unfortunate and misplaced, because purgatory is actually very good news and very Biblical; and even if they don’t want to admit it, any Protestant who takes Scripture seriously will believe this to be true.

If salvation were only about getting to Heaven, then purgatory would make no sense. But salvation is all about Jesus, being united to Him, and being conformed to His image. When we get to Heaven, we will need to be perfectly united to Him in order to stand in the Lord’s presence. Scripture is clear: “Without holiness, no one will see God” (Hebrews 12:14). To me this means that those of us, and there are many, who die without asking forgiveness of current or past venial sins, will not be in a position to see God’s face until we cleanse our souls of these sins. Now we may think we’re doing pretty good in our lives; but if we are honest, we’ll admit that we all have things that need work, and sins to be forgiven. And if we die before we are perfectly conformed to Christ, there is still some spiritual “dirt” that needs to be purged. The final cleansing that makes up what we lack, the last phase of our sanctification, is what Catholics refer to as purgatory. Far from being a terror, in many ways, purgatory is a guarantee of our destiny. Everyone who undergoes purgatory WILL be guaranteed a place in Heaven.

Interestingly, the Church has never made a formal declaration of the exact nature or duration of purgatory; it may in fact be instantaneous. But nevertheless, our souls must be cleansed of all sins before we can look upon God’s face.

Purgatory is our cleansing agent, like confessing our sins to God before taking Communion“. Purgatory is actually more of a process than a place; but IF it needs to be described as a place, perhaps it would best be considered the “purification room” of God’s Heavenly Kingdom. The cleansing of our souls prior to seeing God’s face is very factual. Put another way, if Hell is a place of “outer darkness” and Heaven is a place of light, then purgatory is the time it takes one’s eyes to adjust to the light.

Bible passages which appear to support Purgatory:

There is no direct, unambiguous reference in the Bible to either the existence or the nature of Purgatory. Its existence has been inferred from a number of passages in the Bible:

2 Maccabees 12:39-45: This passage is taken from the Apocrypha which is recognized by the Roman Catholic Church and a few Protestant denominations as an integral part of the official canon of scripture. It talks about living persons praying for the dead. One could reason that there is no need to pray for the deceased if they are in Heaven; they have already received their reward. If the deceased is in Hell, then prayer would again be meaningless because they would be beyond help. One might surmise that there must be an intermediate state or location where a person’s soul could be helped by the prayer of others.

1 Corinthians 3:15 discusses how each individual’s good and bad works will be judged after death. This is probably the main text used by Catholics to support their belief in Purgatory. The passage refers to fire which will test the quality of each man’s work. If it is burned up…he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. This passage could be interpreted as a reference to the purifying fires of Purgatory, which would eventually allow a person to escape. This reference cannot refer to Hell, because one cannot leave that place; it cannot refer to Heaven because there is no pain there; it must refer to some intermediate location. The key word in the original Greek is “zemiothesetai” which is translated as “suffer loss” in many versions of the Bible. But the original word also can refer to punishment; this alternative meaning is suppressed in most translations.

 

[una_fides]

Tomster,

You say, “Therefore let us try to see why it is right that after repenting of our sins we must suffer for them……….”

Christ died for our sins. Once, and for all. We repent of our sins because we are called to repentance by God, chosen by God to be His children, by His Grace. Christ has suffered so that we do not have to; indeed we are not fir to make atomement. We could not bear what we deserve, or what he took for us in his body on the tree.

You also say, “…….There are, therefore, two reasons for suffering for sin: first, atonement to God; and second, the re-making of our souls”.

I take issue with the first of these reasons. We CANNOT make atonement to God for our sins. That is why Christ died for us on the cross. That is what the whole Gospel message is about. That’s what the Catholic Church is about.

You again say, “If God be God, such defyings and rebellion and all unholiness must be hateful to Him. His very nature requires that all sin shall bring its own punishment on the sinner”

Of course sin is hateful to God. And we are expressly told that was why Christ paid our penalty, atoned for our sins, is the lamb of God that TAKES AWAY the sin of the world, that He was “made sin for us” etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. Again I say it is because we could not pay the penalty, because we could not begin to atone that “While we were yet sinners, Christ died FOR US!” He did not die so we could be punished for our sins.

Joe Kelley refers to C.S Lewis’s view when he “compared Purgatory to one arriving at an English weekend party in a raging storm. One needs a bath and some dry clothes before joining the festivities”

He also referred to it when he said something along the lines of “When the tooth of life is pulled, someone will say here, rinse your with this”

I agree with the Pope and the theologians he mentions, and C.S. Lewis and Joe Kelley. Purgatory is a cleansing, a preparation a making ready to be in the presence of Our Blessed Lord, who has already paid the price and borne the punishment for out sin. Purgatory, in my submission, cannot be atoning as this goes completely against the Gospel message and the teachings of The Catholic Church!

God bless the Pope

Jimmy Two Guns

Jimmy,

I suggest further research into the Church’s teachings on purgatory. Christ paid the eternal penalty for our sins and without that we could not attain eternal life. Nevertheless, we still must suffer for the temporal punishments due to sins that are already forgiven. That is what indulgences are all about. They remit the “temporal punishment due to sins that have already been forgiven.” To deny the punishment actions of purgatory is to deny the Church’s teachings on indulgences, which were infallibly defined at the Council of Trent. Thus, if one truly accepts the Church’s teachings, he must also accept indulgences, which remit temporal punishments; otherwise, we are eating in the cafeteria. Sources and quotations available upon request.

 

[thistle]

Jimmy,

I suggest further research into the Church’s teachings on purgatory. Christ paid the eternal penalty for our sins and without that we could not attain eternal life. Nevertheless, we still must suffer for the temporal punishments due to sins that are already forgiven. That is what indulgences are all about. They remit the “temporal punishment due to sins that have already been forgiven.” To deny the punishment actions of purgatory is to deny the Church’s teachings on indulgences, which were infallibly defined at the Council of Trent. Thus, if one truly accepts the Church’s teachings, he must also accept indulgences, which remit temporal punishments; otherwise, we are eating in the cafeteria. Sources and quotations available upon request.

We are obliged to accept the teachings on indulgences but we are not obliged to seek indulgences.

 

[una_fides]

We are obliged to accept the teachings on indulgences but we are not obliged to seek indulgences.

True. We are not obliged, but we are urged and encouraged to do so for both ourselves and for the dead.

 

[una_fides]

So can we get a consensus on here then that Purgatory entails both purification and punishment? I think that the Church has made this fact clear.

My question is whether when one gains a plenary indulgence for the dead does that soul then instantly go to heaven or could it still need purification? In other words, are the two the same or are they different aspects of purgatory that are separately yet simultaneously satisfied? Could one gain full remission of the temporal punishment but still require to undergo further purification?

 

[VociMike]

So can we get a consensus on here then that Purgatory entails both purification and punishment? I think that the Church has made this fact clear.

It’s not at all clear to me, because it’s not at all clear to me what the difference is between punishment and purification.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

It’s not at all clear to me, because it’s not at all clear to me what the difference is between punishment and purification.

Hell is punishment for wrong doing, like unto a junk yard for useless cars. Purgatory is a purification of defects to prepare one for a better place, like unto refurbishment for damaged cars.

 

[VociMike]

Hell is punishment for wrong doing, like unto a junk yard for useless cars. Purgatory is a purification of defects to prepare one for a better place, like unto refurbishment for damaged cars.

Is the punishment of hell the same as the punishment of Purgatory? Are God’s intentions the same in both cases?

 

[una_fides]

It’s not at all clear to me, because it’s not at all clear to me what the difference is between punishment and purification.

Good question. I think we should consult Webster here first to help us shed some light into the meanings of the words themselves:

• Punishment: a: suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution b: a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure
• Purification (Purify): to make pure: as a: to clear from material defilement or imperfection b: to free from guilt or moral or ceremonial blemish c: to free from undesirable elements.

So punishment has to do with us suffering on account of the temporal punishments due to the sins we have committed but which have already been forgiven. Whereas purification is the actual cleansing of our souls from all attachments to sin and the world and also involves a changing of our very nature itself so that we can be able to share in the actual divine nature of our all-holy God.

Does the difference make sense?

In purgatory, both are involved, as one is being cleansed from attachments to sin as he suffers on account of the temporal punishments that the soul justly receives.

 

[VociMike]

Good question. I think we should consult Webster here first to help us shed some light into the meanings of the words themselves:

• Punishment: a: suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution b: a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure

Is God interested in retribution? Is he interested in inflicting penalties? And what is the purpose of inflicting penalties? If God inflicts a penalty, why does he do so?

 

[una_fides]

Is the punishment of hell the same as the punishment of Purgatory? Are God’s intentions the same in both cases?

To answer your first question, yes. However, hell is eternal whereas purgatory is temporal, and the souls in hell suffer without any hope; whereas the souls in purgatory are in a blissful suffering as they approach closer and closer to attaining the beatific vision of their maker.

St. Augustine describes the suffering from the fires in purgatory as more intense than any suffering one may ever encounter here on earth, and St. Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologica explains the fires as real corporeal fires that afflict the soul and says they are the same fires as those in hell. So yes, purgatory is a horrific yet at the same time blessed state where souls become what they were designed to be–perfect. The Church urges us to implore God’s mercy that we will not have to go to purgatory and for the hastening of the souls there.

From the Council of Trent:
“We also beg of God that we be not cut off by a sudden death; that we provoke not His anger against us; that we be not condemned to suffer the punishments reserved for the wicked; that we be not sentenced to endure the fire of purgatory, from which we piously and devoutly implore that others may be liberated.”
Interestingly, if the “fire” is merely God himself, then this infallible statement would not make as much sense, for it would be saying that we beg God that we would not have to endure an encounter with him. It makes more sense to understand this statement in the same sense that it has always been understood, which is that it is a real corporeal fire in purgatory with which we are punished and also cleansed.

 

[una_fides]

Is God interested in retribution? Is he interested in inflicting penalties? And what is the purpose of inflicting penalties? If God inflicts a penalty, why does he do so?

Another good question. First, one of God’s attributes is justice, and since God is perfect, so also is his justice. So yes God is interested in retribution, which is why he became man and died: to redeem us from the eternal debt of our sins, which we could not pay and which his divine justice required.

He punishes us for our own good. For whom the Lord loves, he reproves (Prov 3:12). For this reason, we also suffer on earth. We suffer for our own good, for our purification, for our holiness, so that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Here are a few verses to help shed some more light:
John 15:1-2 “I am the true vine: and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he will take away: and every one that beareth fruit, he will purge it, that it may bring forth more fruit.”

Matthew 18:34-35 “And his lord being angry [with the man who he had forgiven an immense and unpayable debt but who in turn would not forgive his brother for a slight debt], delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.”

Is it making more sense now? God loves us, so he punishes us and gives us what we deserve on account of his infinite justice. None of us deserve heaven or any reward. We all deserve eternal punishment in hell on account of our sins. Without Christ’s sacrifice, we would all be eternally lost. The fact that we undergo pain and suffering is for our purification and is on account of our sins.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Is the punishment of hell the same as the punishment of Purgatory? Are God’s intentions the same in both cases?

I don't know what the pains etc are. However, Hell is penal, punishment for wrongdoing, while Purgatory is medicinal, curative of defects.l.

 

[una_fides]

So can we get a consensus on here then that Purgatory entails both purification and punishment? I think that the Church has made this fact clear.

My question is whether when one gains a plenary indulgence for the dead does that soul then instantly go to heaven or could it still need purification? In other words, are the two the same or are they different aspects of purgatory that are separately yet simultaneously satisfied? Could one gain full remission of the temporal punishment but still require to undergo further purification?

I started another thread on this topic concerning the effect of remitting temporal punishments due to sins and whether a soul in purgatory must still be cleansed if his temporal punishments have been remitted: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4483877#post4483877