Purgatory? Real or Man Made

  • Thread starter Thread starter JD27076
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

JD27076

Guest
As a Southern Baptist (Looking forward to convert) I have been told by my pastors purgatory is a false man made catholic teaching. I have come to believe that is false. I do believe in Purgatory, so does my Baptist Mom and my Baptist Grandmother. With this thread I wish some scripture upon Purgatory. I know of one scripture that supports purgatory and its 1 Corinthians 3:15. Talks about a man saved only through the fire. BUT, that can easily be told as a parable. Is there any more scripture that relates to Purgatory? Thanks! 😃
 
As a Southern Baptist (Looking forward to convert) I have been told by my pastors purgatory is a false man made catholic teaching. I have come to believe that is false. I do believe in Purgatory, so does my Baptist Mom and my Baptist Grandmother. With this thread I wish some scripture upon Purgatory. I know of one scripture that supports purgatory and its 1 Corinthians 3:15. Talks about a man saved only through the fire. BUT, that can easily be told as a parable. Is there any more scripture that relates to Purgatory? Thanks! 😃
Hi JD,
I don’t believe it is as simple as “real or man made”. Clearly scripture teaches that nothing unclean can enter Heaven, so a purgation/cleansing must take place. The issue, ISTM, is is there an intermediate state/place where this happens?
My personal view is that there could be an intermediate state/place, but scripture tells us nothing of it, so my concern is the binding of the conscience of the believer to this particular expression of the moment of purgation that must take place.

Jon
 
This is just the New Testament…

New Testament.

2 Tim. 1:15-18 - Prayer for the deceased Onesiphorus implying possibility of purification after death

Heb. 12:14; Rev 21:27 - Need for purification to dwell in heaven implies purgation before entering into God’s heavenly presence.

Heb 12:6-11, 23 - Temporal punihsment as discipline leading to purification

Mt. 5:25-26; 12:32; Luke 12:58 - Temporal punishment for sin

I would also encourage to you look up Purgatory in the Cathechim of the Catholic Church. That may help as well.

However, as Catholics we also hold Sacred Tradition to be just as important as Sacred Scripture. There is much in Church Tradition, and purgatory is a dogma of the Faith as well, if you are willing to look outside of sources that are not just Scripture.

God bless.
 
As a Southern Baptist (Looking forward to convert) I have been told by my pastors purgatory is a false man made catholic teaching. I have come to believe that is false. I do believe in Purgatory, so does my Baptist Mom and my Baptist Grandmother. With this thread I wish some scripture upon Purgatory. I know of one scripture that supports purgatory and its 1 Corinthians 3:15. Talks about a man saved only through the fire. BUT, that can easily be told as a parable. Is there any more scripture that relates to Purgatory? Thanks! 😃
LitteOne has given an extensive list of Scripture references above.

I would just like to add one more.

2 Maccabees 12:45 is a good example. Perhaps seeing the problem with this passage, Luther decided to reject the book as part of Scripture.

The following might also help if you haven’t seen it already

catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

The following is a more extensive discussion by former Protestant (Presbyterian I believe) Theologian (so you might find it more useful since he already knows the questions you might have). There is a section in the article called “Biblical Evidence for Belief in Sheol/Purgatory” which you might find especially interesting.

zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m4/pg.html

(Note: If you are having trouble with the margins of the site, you will have to re-size the browser by decreasing the width of the window)

God Bless 🙂
 
Difficult to vote from the choices…“false Catholic teaching” seems to lack charity.

We are cleansed from all sin through the work of Christ…the work of the Holy Spirit continues to cleanse us from all sin…Christ saves us completly…I see no need for a state of purgation from sin outside of the cleansing/purging work of the Holy Spirit…“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to cleanse us from ALL sin”…even “temporal attachments” to sin…that’s what sanctification is…through the Holy Spirit’s work we are sanctified…made holy by His work in us…I see no need for further cleansing after death…“I baptize you with water, but one comes after me who will baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire”…the “cleansing fire” of the Holy Spirit’s work is complete once we leave this world and enter into the Presence…

Since Purgatory is not a physical place…praying people out of the years they spend in it makes no sense to me…“years”…“months”…“days” are This Side issues…Other Side has no such time constraints.
 
My personal view is that there could be an intermediate state/place, but scripture tells us nothing of it, so my concern is the binding of the conscience of the believer to this particular expression of the moment of purgation that must take place.

Jon
Jon,

How do you reconcile this point of view with the clear Teaching of the Church on purgatory? The Church is very clear that there is purgatory and what it is for. It is not up to the believer or his conscience to assent to something to be believed in when it is held by the Catholic Church to be held and believed by the Faithful.

God bless.
 
Purgatory is not a “place.” It is a state of being. It is the name given by the Catholic Church to the process of purification of souls after death in preparation for heaven. The word Purgatory is from the Latin verb purgoare – to cleanse, to purify.

Here is John Paul II on the subject of Purgatory, Heaven, and Hell:

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM

Jewish belief in the purification of souls, and therefore the belief of Christ and the Apostles and the Church, can be seen in 2 Maccabees 12:38-45. This Scripture and others – designated by Protestants as the “Apocrypha” – were removed from the canon by Martin Luther, resulting in their eventual removal from Protestant Bibles entirely in 1827.

BTW, Jews still pray for their beloved dead, as do the Orthodox. But they have no name for the process of purification.

Jim Dandy
 
Difficult to vote from the choices…“false Catholic teaching” seems to lack charity.

We are cleansed from all sin through the work of Christ…the work of the Holy Spirit continues to cleanse us from all sin…Christ saves us completly…I see no need for a state of purgation from sin outside of the cleansing/purging work of the Holy Spirit…“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to cleanse us from ALL sin”…even “temporal attachments” to sin…that’s what sanctification is…through the Holy Spirit’s work we are sanctified…made holy by His work in us…I see no need for further cleansing after death…“I baptize you with water, but one comes after me who will baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire”…the “cleansing fire” of the Holy Spirit’s work is complete once we leave this world and enter into the Presence…

Since Purgatory is not a physical place…praying people out of the years they spend in it makes no sense to me…“years”…“months”…“days” are This Side issues…Other Side has no such time constraints.
But in your view there is no need for satisfaction for sin. You don’t think that is error?

newadvent.org/summa/5013.htm

So I understand why you do not “see” the need for purgatory. But that is more because you have some errors in the foundations of you belief that need to be fixed.

God Bless 🙂
 
Jon,

How do you reconcile this point of view with the clear Teaching of the Church on purgatory? The Church is very clear that there is purgatory and what it is for. It is not up to the believer or his conscience to assent to something to be believed in when it is held by the Catholic Church to be held and believed by the Faithful.

God bless.
If I were in communion with Rome, I would take your stance, trusting in the teachings of your Church and the Magisterium. However, there is not a testimony from scripture, and in this I include 2 Macc., which speaks of an intermediate state/place. Scripture speaks of two places - one for the saved, and one for the condemned. Now that doesn’t deny the possiblily of an intermediate state/place - even Luther did not deny the possibility. The issue the is binding the conscience of the believer to something that is not even implicit in scripture. The east does not share the belief, which means the teaching’s roots in Tradition are at issue, as well.

Jon
 
If I were in communion with Rome, I would take your stance, trusting in the teachings of your Church and the Magisterium. However, there is not a testimony from scripture, and in this I include 2 Macc., which speaks of an intermediate state/place. Scripture speaks of two places - one for the saved, and one for the condemned. Now that doesn’t deny the possiblily of an intermediate state/place - even Luther did not deny the possibility. The issue the is binding the conscience of the believer to something that is not even implicit in scripture. The east does not share the belief, which means the teaching’s roots in Tradition are at issue, as well.

Jon
Ahhh thanks for the clarification. I saw Evangelical Catholic LCSM?? in your religion and did not know what it was.

By the east are you meaning Orthodox or Eastern Catholics? I thought the Orthodox believed in purgatory. I learned something new if this does indeed hold to be the case.

God bless.
 
Purgatory is not a “place.” It is a state of being. It is the name given by the Catholic Church to the process of purification of souls after death in preparation for heaven. The word Purgatory is from the Latin verb purgoare – to cleanse, to purify.

Here is John Paul II on the subject of Purgatory, Heaven, and Hell:

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM

Jewish belief in the purification of souls, and therefore the belief of Christ and the Apostles and the Church, can be seen in 2 Maccabees 12:38-45. This Scripture and others – designated by Protestants as the “Apocrypha” – were removed from the canon by Martin Luther, resulting in their eventual removal from Protestant Bibles entirely in 1827.

BTW, Jews still pray for their beloved dead, as do the Orthodox. But they have no name for the process of purification.

Jim Dandy
Hi Jim,
Speaking as a Lutheran, we do not deny the purification of souls to enter Heaven. We do not deny a proper role for prayer for the dead, historically Lutheran funeral liturgies have had these kinds of prayers.

Here is the passage from 2 Macc you cite:
38 Then Judas assembled his army and went to the city of Adullam. As the seventh day was coming on, they purified themselves according to the custom, and they kept the sabbath there. 39 On the next day, as by that time it had become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen in the sepulchres of their fathers. 40 Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. 41 So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; 42 and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. 43 He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. 44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.
Where is there mentioned, even implicitly, an intermediate state/place?

Jon
 
Difficult to vote from the choices…“false Catholic teaching” seems to lack charity.

We are cleansed from all sin through the work of Christ…the work of the Holy Spirit continues to cleanse us from all sin…Christ saves us completly…I see no need for a state of purgation from sin outside of the cleansing/purging work of the Holy Spirit…“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and** just** to cleanse us from ALL sin”…even “temporal attachments” to sin…that’s what sanctification is…through the Holy Spirit’s work we are sanctified…made holy by His work in us…I see no need for further cleansing after death…“I baptize you with water, but one comes after me who will baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire”…the “cleansing fire” of the Holy Spirit’s work is complete once we leave this world and enter into the Presence…

Since Purgatory is not a physical place…praying people out of the years they spend in it makes no sense to me…“years”…“months”…“days” are This Side issues…Other Side has no such time constraints.
I only take issue with that one word “Just”. God is NOT being just in cleansing us of sin, he is being merciful 👍 Having read your posts for so long I think you agree on that and perhaps it was just a slip or you meant something different.

Nothing further to add.
 
As a Southern Baptist (Looking forward to convert) I have been told by my pastors purgatory is a false man made catholic teaching. I have come to believe that is false. I do believe in Purgatory, so does my Baptist Mom and my Baptist Grandmother. With this thread I wish some scripture upon Purgatory. I know of one scripture that supports purgatory and its 1 Corinthians 3:15. Talks about a man saved only through the fire. BUT, that can easily be told as a parable. Is there any more scripture that relates to Purgatory? Thanks! 😃
Unfortunately you and the majority of Baptists are dead wrong. One of the main reasons for their disbelief is the fact many early reformers rejected the doctrine based on personal prejudices and not so much on theological evidence.Another reason is because many Protestants read Bibles lacking the extra 7 books Catholic Bibles contain.

Here is a challenge to your any of Baptist pastors:

Tell them when, where and who invented this so called man-made doctrine? Likewise,tell them to show you the countless writings clearly showing the protests by the early Christians,since it was fabricated out of clerical hat?
 
Here is the passage from 2 Macc you cite:

Where is there mentioned, even implicitly, an intermediate state/place?

Jon
38 Then Judas assembled his army and went to the city of Adullam. As the seventh day was coming on, they purified themselves according to the custom, and they kept the sabbath there. 39 On the next day, as by that time it had become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen in the sepulchres of their fathers. 40 Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. 41 So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; 42 and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. 43 He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. 44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.
The whole passage describes making sacrifices and offerings for the sins of those who are already DEAD.

So if there is only heaven and earth, either

(a) the dead are in heaven
(b) the dead are in hell

But if (a), they don’t need any offerings for their sins. If (b) no offering will help.

So it logically follows that the dead were neither in HEAVEN nor HELL.

God Bless 🙂
 
Purgatory has to exist for the fact that no one with sin on their souls can enter heaven. If there were no such place as purgatory, where would we wash ourselves clean of the impurities we have before entering heaven? And why would we be so willing to proclaim God as “infinitely merciful” if He would send us to hell for a venial sin like being slightly impatient or angry?

If God is as just and merciful as He proclaims to be He would have a place for sins to be washed away. We know this for the fact that He is the one that made us - Adam and Eve were perfect, but they sinned and that in turn resulted in us being naturally sinful. Why would He expect us to be beyond our very nature?
 
Ahhh thanks for the clarification. I saw Evangelical Catholic LCSM?? in your religion and did not know what it was.

By the east are you meaning Orthodox or Eastern Catholics? I thought the Orthodox believed in purgatory. I learned something new if this does indeed hold to be the case.

God bless.
usccb.org/seia/The-Hope-of-Eternal-Life.pdf

The link is to a recent Lutheran/Catholic dialogue document. Long, but informative.

The biggest issues for the reformers were the one I have already mentioned, but just as importantly, the issue of indulgences and what they considered abuses of the Mass that grew up around the belief.

From the document, the quote being Luther’s
“When they have given up their purgatorial
‘Mass fairs’ (something Augustine never dreamed of), then we will discuss with them whether St. Augustine’s word, lacking support from Scripture, may be tolerated and whether the dead may be commemorated at the sacrament. It will not do to formulate articles of faith on the basis of the holy Fathers’ works or words” (§14f).
The existence of purgatory is not dogmatically denied. Rather, 1) the existence of purgatory is not taught by Scripture and thus cannot be binding doctrine, and 2) belief in purgatory is now hopelessly bound up with unacceptable practices. A belief that could be discussed in principle is concretely objectionable because of its associations. 182. These associations, however, were not just with what could be called abuses, but with the
developed penitential system and the idea that satisfactions were still owed for forgiven sins. That the justified must still suffer for their sins, even for forgiven sins, was not denied by the Reformers.202 Such sufferings are not, however, rightly understood as actions. “This whole theory [of satisfactions] is a recent fiction fabricated without the authority of the Scriptures or the ancient writers of the church. Not even Peter Lombard speaks this way about satisfactions”
(Apol. XII, 119).
As the document states, for Lutherans, the existence of Purgatory is not dogmatically denied.

Jon
 
Belief in Purgatory is closely tied with belief in mortal and venial sin as taught predominantly by Jesus and St. John, and relies on an understanding of the absolute perfection and purity required for entry into heaven. Once this is understood, Purgatory becomes a beautiful doctrine showing God’s compassion and love for us.

I wrote a short PDF titled “The Biblical Basis for Purgatory”.

It’s also available as a blog post at timhollingworth.blogspot.com/2010/12/biblical-basis-for-catholic-beliefs.html.

-Tim-
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top