Purgatory? Real or Man Made

[Michael19682]

I joined this debate just one post ago, and admit my bias in favor or purgatory. Could someone sum up the essence of the controversy for me? I thank you in advance for your efforts.

 

[JonNC]

=Nicea325;8149592]And blessings to you Jon. I understand your argument,but Jon one has to understand that scripture does not teach everything must be explicitly laid out nor was it written in such a manner. The doctrines of the Trinity and Incarnation are not explicitly explained in scripture;the church is the one which gave us the complexity of the three distinct persons of the Trinitarian doctrine. It is implicit in scripture,not explicit.

I agree. For example, one has to connect the dots, as it well, regarding Holy Theotokos. Its there, however. I think Trinity is a bit more explicit. Nevertheless, the early councils identified the Truth of these. Some of the doctrines over the last 1000 years have not had the benefit of a truly ecumenical council.

In terms of description? That is called doctrinal development. Simply because something is explained or defined over time does not negate it all. The doctrine of the Trinity was not explained as elaborately or defined very well prior to it being ratified at Nicaea in 325 A.D. Did it make false,since it was not understood the same prior to 325 A.D.? One of the issues I encounter with many Protestants (not you in particular) is the failure to understand doctrinal development. Doctrines are defined and ratified when they are being challenged or violated,it is not an invention,but a clear and precise explanation. Regardless at what point in time and space it happens (Nicea 325, Constantinople 381,Ephesus 431,etc).

Yes, I understand. Thanks. The question for me relates to the problem above - that of councils that are not truly ecumenical?

Jon

 

[ryanoneil]

Other than 2 Macc., where else in the deutero-canon is something taught that didn’t fit into his “little agenda”? Jon

Wisdom 3:5-6

 

[Nicea325]

I agree. For example, one has to connect the dots, as it well, regarding Holy Theotokos. Its there, however. I think Trinity is a bit more explicit. Nevertheless, the early councils identified the Truth of these. Some of the doctrines over the last 1000 years have not had the benefit of a truly ecumenical council.

Yes, I understand. Thanks. The question for me relates to the problem above - that of councils that are not truly ecumenical?

Jon

Jon,

May you please elaborate on the councils which were not “truly” ecumenical?

Thanks

 

[JonNC]

Jon,

May you please elaborate on the councils which were not “truly” ecumenical?

Thanks

By definition, including all of the patriarchates of the early Church. hence, the 7, were truly ecumenical.

Jon

 

[Nicea325]

By definition, including all of the patriarchates of the early Church. hence, the 7, were truly ecumenical.

Jon

Well yes…depending who is being asked? For Catholics all other councils were “truthful” and sadly will say otherwise?

 

[rinnie]

If Purgatory is not real, then what do people make of the scirpture of the final cleaning.

If you are to have a FINAL cleaning that means you are being cleaned for the final time of sin and will be uncapable of commiting anymore sin. If you could sin anymore then it could not be your FINAL CLEANSING.

Like confession is our cleansing here on earth. But we do not only have ONE confession in our life, because we continue to sin, so must be cleansed of that sin time after time.

But if we are to have the final cleansing and it is not in this world and it can’t be done in heaven because you have to be completely pure and free from any sin in throught or mind where would it be done?

It can’t be hell because there is no Grace from God to have the final cleaning, and if its not here where do others say it is? Or do they deny the scripture completely?

What I am asking is those who DENY purgatory how do they explain that scripture? What is their Church teaching?

 

[ajcstr]

I have not read through this entire post but one thing that needs to be made clear is that purgatory is NOT a 2nd chance in the sense that it applies only if no mortal sin is present. It is a condition for those souls that will enter Heaven but are in need of purification.

I have heard it described as a “wicked doctrine” because it somehow undermines damnation. If understood properly you should see that it does not.

 

[rinnie]

I have not read through this entire post but one thing that needs to be made clear is that purgatory is NOT a 2nd chance in the sense that it applies only if no mortal sin is present. It is a condition for those souls that will enter Heaven but are in need of purification.

I have heard it described as a “wicked doctrine” because it somehow undermines damnation. If understood properly you should see that it does not.

Correct, Some people believe that purgatory was a second chance, which in a way I can see them seeing it that way in if you were not Perfected in the Lord in this world you can achieve that perfection in purgatory.

Which quite honestly not many people achieve that perfection in the Lord here in this world, but that does not mean it is possible. The Saints have showed us how it can be done here on this earth.

But if you are free from mortal sin, but need to have that final cleansing, which is being perfected in Christ in order to achieve heaven, you must enter into the Purgatory state of being.

Many people see purgatory as a punishment, not as the free gift given to us by Christ to achieve what we could not achieve in this world. We must not only be released of the sins that we commited we must be released from the desire to ever sin again.

I think we can all relate quite clear the difference of being purified and being forgiven from our sin, but then turning around and sinning again.

When you are cleansed from that sin once and for all you will never repeat that sin again, You have been cleansed from it, and the desire to repeat that sin has been washed away.

And we all can relate once the desire to sin has been washed away, there would be no need to sin, we would no longer get anything out of our sin.

Most sin always had something in it that we feel we need or desire to drive us to that sin. But what hurts is the desire or need to sin always leads to us destroying ourselves in that sin or the lives of others.

 

[JonNC]

If Purgatory is not real, then what do people make of the scirpture of the final cleaning.

If you are to have a FINAL cleaning that means you are being cleaned for the final time of sin and will be uncapable of commiting anymore sin. If you could sin anymore then it could not be your FINAL CLEANSING.

Like confession is our cleansing here on earth. But we do not only have ONE confession in our life, because we continue to sin, so must be cleansed of that sin time after time.

But if we are to have the final cleansing and it is not in this world and it can’t be done in heaven because you have to be completely pure and free from any sin in throught or mind where would it be done?
It can’t be hell because there is no Grace from God to have the final cleaning, and if its not here where do others say it is? Or do they deny the scripture completely?

What I am asking is those who DENY purgatory how do they explain that scripture? What is their Church teaching?

Here is what the Catholic Catechism says about Purgatory;

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

No where is mentioned a place, but an event - purification. On this Lutherans can agree.
And here is what James Akin says:

You see, Protestant are very firm (in fact, insistent) about the fact that we continue sinning until the end of this life because of our corrupt nature. However, they are equally firm (if you press them) about the fact that we will not be sinning in heaven because we will no longer have a corrupt nature. Thus between death and glory there must be a sanctification—a purification—of our natures. This purification may take no time, but as we have seen, this is no barrier to the doctrine of purgatory. The fact remains that between death and glory must come purification, and that is purgatory by definition—the final purification or, to put it in more Protestant terms, “the final sanctification” or “the last rush of sanctification.”

So, it seems to me a Catholic cannot argue, based on doctrine, against the idea that there is no intermeduate state/place, but only a moment of purification, of cleansing, by the grace of God through Christ Jesus.
By the same, Protetants will not be able argue against the Catholic teaching of Purgatory, if the notion of a state/place is not insisted upon, which the Catechism does not do.

Again, from Akin, quoting Cardinal Ratzinger:

The final purification may take place in the immediate presence of God (to the extent that God’s presence may be described in spatial terms). In fact, in his book on eschatology, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger describes purgatory as a fiery, transforming encounter with Christ and his love:

"Purgatory is not, as Tertullian thought, some kind of supra-worldly concentration camp where one is forced to undergo punishments in a more or less arbitrary fashion. Rather it is the inwardly necessary process of transformation in which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God * and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of saints*. Simply to look at people with any degree of realism at all is to grasp the necessity of such a process. It does not replace grace by works, but allows the former to achieve its full victory precisely as grace. What actually saves is the full assent of faith. But in most of us, that basic option is buried under a great deal of wood, hay and straw. Only with difficulty can it peer out from behind the latticework of an egoism we are powerless to pull down with our own hands. Man is the recipient of the divine mercy, yet this does not exonerate him from the need to be transformed. Encounter with the Lord this transformation. It is the fire that burns away our dross and re-forms us to be vessels of eternal joy."

Thus according to Ratzinger’s way of explaining the doctrine, as we are drawn out of this life and into direct union with Jesus, his fiery love and holiness burns away all the dross and impurities in our souls and makes us fit for life in the glorious, overwhelming light of God’s presence and holiness.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

Again, no mention of a state/place, but an event.

ewtn.com/library/answers/how2purg.htm

continued

 

[JonNC]

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

Luther: “As for the dead…I regard it as no sin to pray with free devotion in this or some similar fashion: ‘Dear God, if this soul is in a condition accessible to mercy, be thou gracious to it.’ And when this has been done once or twice, let it suffice…"

Pope Benedict XVI

Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. **The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ’s Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy. It is clear that we cannot calculate the “duration” of this transforming burning in terms of the chronological measurements of this world. The transforming “moment” of this encounter eludes earthly time-reckoning—it is the heart’s time, it is the time of “passage” to communion with God in the Body of Christ[39]. **The judgement of God is hope, both because it is justice and because it is grace. If it were merely grace, making all earthly things cease to matter, God would still owe us an answer to the question about justice—the crucial question that we ask of history and of God. If it were merely justice, in the end it could bring only fear to us all. The incarnation of God in Christ has so closely linked the two together—judgement and grace—that justice is firmly established: we all work out our salvation “with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12). Nevertheless grace allows us all to hope, and to go trustfully to meet the Judge whom we know as our “advocate”, or parakletos (cf. 1 Jn 2:1). - Encyclical Spe Salvi

Jon

 

[ddarko]

Here is what the Catholic Catechism says about Purgatory;

No where is mentioned a place, but an event - purification. On this Lutherans can agree.
And here is what James Akin says:

So, it seems to me a Catholic cannot argue, based on doctrine, against the idea that there is no intermeduate state/place, but only a moment of purification, of cleansing, by the grace of God through Christ Jesus.
By the same, Protetants will not be able argue against the Catholic teaching of Purgatory, if the notion of a state/place is not insisted upon, which the Catechism does not do.

Again, from Akin, quoting Cardinal Ratzinger:

Again, no mention of a state/place, but an event.

ewtn.com/library/answers/how2purg.htm

continued

NOT State/place but an event???

IF someone is not in hell, and not on earth, if there is such an “event”, that person must be in a certain state.

You can say they are in the state of being purified.

It’s honestly a matter of terminology.

God Bless

 

[rinnie]

Here is what the Catholic Catechism says about Purgatory;

No where is mentioned a place, but an event - purification. On this Lutherans can agree.
And here is what James Akin says:

So, it seems to me a Catholic cannot argue, based on doctrine, against the idea that there is no intermeduate state/place, but only a moment of purification, of cleansing, by the grace of God through Christ Jesus.
By the same, Protetants will not be able argue against the Catholic teaching of Purgatory, if the notion of a state/place is not insisted upon, which the Catechism does not do.

Again, from Akin, quoting Cardinal Ratzinger:

Again, no mention of a state/place, but an event.

ewtn.com/library/answers/how2purg.htm

continued

Okay Jon lets here what you are saying here, it is not a state or a place it is an event? Can you explain to me how something can take place without it being a state of mind?

What Father told me is purgatory is a state of being, which to me is when you are sleeping you can be in a state of being. But in another way you can also be in a place in your mind. I mean actually what is the difference?

But again how can it not be at least a state of being which mean a place where you soul is, and how can this event as you say take place if you are not in the right STATE of mind or as we say BEING to understand it?

 

[rinnie]

Think back Jon in the O.T the souls were being held, was it not in a state of being, or state of mind per say.

Because is it not the soul that moves on at the moment of our death. So how could our soul go through this purifying process rather it be a real place or a state in our mind, what is really the difference.

And also how can it take place if our mind is not in that state? You have me confused there?

 

[jlhargus]

Is there any more scripture that relates to Purgatory? Thanks!

The Church does not define where purgatory is nor whether it is a literal place or state of being. The Church doesn’t say one way or the other if it’s a literal fire, that’s how Paul describes it. Peter tells us we can be tried with fire while on earth and we know that isn’t literal fire, yet it is painful. [1Pt1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, IF NEED BE, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:] If need be, we will be tried here and purified or in purgatory in the next world, it depends on us. [Mt12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, NEITHER IN THE WORLD TO COME.]

Purgatory does indeed line up with the Word and it can be found there as prison or a passing thru fire. Christ calls it prison, [LK 12:58 When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, AS THOU ART IN THE WAY, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer,and the officer cast thee into PRISON. 59 I tell thee, THOU SHALT NOT DEPART THENCE, TILL thou hast paid the very last mite.]

Paul tells us we will pass thru fire, where bad works will be burned away, though the person will be saved as by fire. [1Cor3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man’s work shall be made MANIFEST: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the FIRE SHALL TRY EVERY MAN’S WORK OF WHAT SORT IT IS. 14 IF ANY MAN’S WORK ABIDE which he hath built thereupon, HE SHALL RECEIVE A REWARD. 15 IF any man’s work shall be BURNED, he shall suffer LOSS: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE.]

How can a WORK be carried with us into death when we take nothing with us? Works are brought to the judgement in the HEART or SOUL’S intention. It’s not the external works that render impure, but what comes from inside (intention) that renders a man impure. [Mt15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.] [Mk9:49 For **EVERY ONE SHALL BE SALTED WITH FIRE, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.]

Scripture tells us we will be JUDGED by our deeds, good or bad. [2Cor5:10 For WE must ALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, ACCORDING TO THAT HE HATH DONE, whether it be GOOD OR BAD.] [1Pt1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 17 And if ye call on the Father, who WITHOUT RESPECT OF PERSONS JUDGETH ACCORDING TO EVERY MAN’S WORK, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:] [1Pt4:18 And if the RIGHTEOUS SCARCELY BE SAVED, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?]

Purgatory does not negate what Jesus did, but is a great mercy and fruit of what Jesus did on the cross. Those in purgatory are saved and cannot lose their salvation. What Jesus did, saves and cleanses us totally, thru baptism, rendering us pure to enter heaven. What we do or fail to do, AFTER baptism, whether good works which helps us grow in faith, keeping our garment clean, or bad works of which one needs to be purged to remove the stain from our wedding garment.

Christ tells us we will give account for every idle word. [Mt12:36 But I say unto you, That EVERY IDLE WORD that MEN shall speak, they SHALL GIVE ACCOUNT thereof IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT.] Have you never called someone an idiot or worse in traffic? Have you always asked forgiveness and done something nice for someone in reparation for that sin? [Jms3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.] Have you forgiven, FROM YOUR HEART, all who have offended you or do you harbor some resentment for some of those offensives? [Mt18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So LIKEWISE SHALL MY HEAVENLY FATHER DO ALSO UNTO YOU, IF ye FROM YOUR HEARTS FORGIVE NOT every one his brother their trespasses.]

[Jer 17:9 THE HEART IS DECEITFUL above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? 10 I THE LORD SEARCH THE HEART and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve.]

 

[jlhargus]

The word PURGATORY isn’t found in scripture, nor is the word trinity. Although the word purgatory is not in scripture, the concept is found in scripture. Christ uses the word PRISON to describe a temporary place of restitution

[Mt5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art **IN THE WAY with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into PRISON. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, TILL thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.]

[LK 12:58 When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, AS THOU ART IN THE WAY, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, **and the officer cast thee into PRISON. 59 I tell thee, THOU SHALT NOT DEPART THENCE, TILL thou hast paid the very last mite.
[Mt 28:23 Therefore is **THE KINDOM OF HEAVEN LIKENED UNTO A certain KING, which would take account of his servants. … 32 Then his lord … said … I forgave thee …33… Shouldn’t you …34 his lord delivered him to the tormentors till he should pay all due him 35 … LIKEWISE … my heavenly Father WILL DO TO YOU if ye from YOUR HEARTS FORGIVE NOT every one his brother their trespasses]

[1Cor3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 **Every man’s work shall be made MANIFEST: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the FIRE SHALL TRY EVERY MAN’S WORD OF WHAT SORT IT IS. 14 IF ANY MAN’S WORK ABIDE which he hath built thereupon, HE SHALL RECEIVE A REWARD. 15 IF any man’s work shall be BURNED, he shall suffer LOSS: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE.

[Hb9:27 And as IT IS APPOINTED UNTO MEN ONCE TO DIE, but AFTER this THE JUDGMENT:]

[Mk9:49 For **EVERY ONE SHALL BE SALTED WITH FIRE, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.] [HEB 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.]

[1Pt4:18 And IF THE RIGHTEOUS SCARCELY BE SAVED, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?]

: If Onesiphorus has died, as it seems Paul is indicating, since Paul doesn’t indicate Onesiphorus is with him. Paul would not only be praying for Onesiphorus’ family in 2Tm1:16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain:] but also for the repose of the soul of Onesiphorus in 2Tm1:18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.]

MERCY on THAT DAY, would indicate judgement, [Hb9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judment.]

In closing the letter Paul does not memtion Onesiphorus but salutes his household. [2Tm4:19 Salute Prisca and Aquila, and THE HOUSEHOLD of Onesiphorus.] This would also indicate Onesiphorus is dead and Paul is praying for the repose of his soul. Strongly indicating Paul believed in a temporary place (purgatory) other than heaven and hell. Prayer for those in heaven would be superfluous as they have no needs. Also prayer for those in hell would be superfluous as they are beyond help. Jews still pray for their dead for eleven months after death.

 

[rinnie]

The Church does not define where purgatory is nor whether it is a literal place or state of being. The Church doesn’t say one way or the other if it’s a literal fire, that’s how Paul describes it. Peter tells us we can be tried with fire while on earth and we know that isn’t literal fire, yet it is painful. [1Pt1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, IF NEED BE, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:] If need be, we will be tried here and purified or in purgatory in the next world, it depends on us. [Mt12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, NEITHER IN THE WORLD TO COME.]

Purgatory does indeed line up with the Word and it can be found there as prison or a passing thru fire. Christ calls it prison, [LK 12:58 When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, AS THOU ART IN THE WAY, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer,and the officer cast thee into PRISON. 59 I tell thee, THOU SHALT NOT DEPART THENCE, TILL thou hast paid the very last mite.]

Paul tells us we will pass thru fire, where bad works will be burned away, though the person will be saved as by fire. [1Cor3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man’s work shall be made MANIFEST: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the FIRE SHALL TRY EVERY MAN’S WORK OF WHAT SORT IT IS. 14 IF ANY MAN’S WORK ABIDE which he hath built thereupon, HE SHALL RECEIVE A REWARD. 15 IF any man’s work shall be BURNED, he shall suffer LOSS: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE.]

How can a WORK be carried with us into death when we take nothing with us? Works are brought to the judgement in the HEART or SOUL’S intention. It’s not the external works that render impure, but what comes from inside (intention) that renders a man impure. [Mt15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.] [Mk9:49 For **EVERY ONE SHALL BE SALTED WITH FIRE

, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.]

Scripture tells us we will be JUDGED by our deeds, good or bad. [2Cor5:10 For WE must ALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, ACCORDING TO THAT HE HATH DONE, whether it be GOOD OR BAD.] [1Pt1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 17 And if ye call on the Father, who WITHOUT RESPECT OF PERSONS JUDGETH ACCORDING TO EVERY MAN’S WORK, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:] [1Pt4:18 And if the RIGHTEOUS SCARCELY BE SAVED, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?]

Purgatory does not negate what Jesus did, but is a great mercy and fruit of what Jesus did on the cross. Those in purgatory are saved and cannot lose their salvation. What Jesus did, saves and cleanses us totally, thru baptism, rendering us pure to enter heaven. What we do or fail to do, AFTER baptism, whether good works which helps us grow in faith, keeping our garment clean, or bad works of which one needs to be purged to remove the stain from our wedding garment.

Christ tells us we will give account for every idle word. [Mt12:36 But I say unto you, That EVERY IDLE WORD that MEN shall speak, they SHALL GIVE ACCOUNT thereof IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT.] Have you never called someone an idiot or worse in traffic? Have you always asked forgiveness and done something nice for someone in reparation for that sin? [Jms3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.] Have you forgiven, FROM YOUR HEART, all who have offended you or do you harbor some resentment for some of those offensives? [Mt18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So LIKEWISE SHALL MY HEAVENLY FATHER DO ALSO UNTO YOU, IF ye FROM YOUR HEARTS FORGIVE NOT every one his brother their trespasses.]

[Jer 17:9 THE HEART IS DECEITFUL above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? 10 I THE LORD SEARCH THE HEART and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve.]

Again you have lost me here. Catholic Tradition has always taught it to be a transitional conditon between heaven and hell. Now how could it not be a state of being, which means a state of mind, if you have no idea you are going through the process?

I mean what good is the suffering and the process if you are not in that state of mind to understand what you are going through.

State of being means a state of existance. So how could we not exist and go through the cleansing state?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Luke 6:40
The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

John 17:23
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Jesus says that not only is it possible to be perfect on this earth but He commands it in Matt.5:48 and the bible tells us how

Eph.4
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Phil.3
12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Col.1
24Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:
25Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

2Tim3
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Hebrews 10
14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Hebrews 13
20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 John 4:17
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

We become perfect before our Heavenly Father because of the things that Jesus did for us on calvary. It is not possible for us to earn the gift of salvation by having our sins purged. If it were possible God’s gift would not be a gift and salvation would be owed to us, completely nullifying the cross.

Jn.14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[BVM_1221]

As a Southern Baptist (Looking forward to convert) I have been told by my pastors purgatory is a false man made catholic teaching. I have come to believe that is false. I do believe in Purgatory, so does my Baptist Mom and my Baptist Grandmother. With this thread I wish some scripture upon Purgatory. I know of one scripture that supports purgatory and its 1 Corinthians 3:15. Talks about a man saved only through the fire. BUT, that can easily be told as a parable. Is there any more scripture that relates to Purgatory? Thanks!

First, here is what the Catechism has to say…

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III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

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Note the reference to Judas Maccebus. This is the strongest indication of Purgatory in the Old Testement. They took up a collection. (Some things NEVER change), That is why Luther removed that book, and others, from the Protestent version of the Bible, even tho the books had been in the Original Bible for 1,500 years:shrug:

 

[rinnie]

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Luke 6:40
The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

John 17:23
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Jesus says that not only is it possible to be perfect on this earth but He commands it in Matt.5:48 and the bible tells us how

Eph.4
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Phil.3
12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Col.1
24Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:
25Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

2Tim3
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Hebrews 10
14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Hebrews 13
20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 John 4:17
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

We become perfect before our Heavenly Father because of the things that Jesus did for us on calvary. It is not possible for us to earn the gift of salvation by having our sins purged. If it were possible God’s gift would not be a gift and salvation would be owed to us, completely nullifying the cross.

Jn.14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Then Richard if it is not our desire or inability to sin what is being purged in the scripture? What are we being cleansed from in the scripture? God’s Grace. Come one Richard.