Purgatory? Real or Man Made

[jlhargus]

Again you have lost me here. Catholic Tradition has always taught it to be a transitional conditon between heaven and hell. Now how could it not be a state of being, which means a state of mind, if you have no idea you are going through the process?

I mean what good is the suffering and the process if you are not in that state of mind to understand what you are going through.

State of being means a state of existance. So how could we not exist and go through the cleansing state?

JL: I am having computer problems so it’s difficult to post. The Church has not defined whether it is a place or state. It would have to be one or the other, but the Chruch has not defined which. Hope this helps rinnie. Check out New Advent on purgatory to see what has been defined. Here is the link move down to Authoritative teaching of the Church about six titles down.

newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm

 

[rinnie]

First, here is what the Catechism has to say…

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III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

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Note the reference to Judas Maccebus. This is the strongest indication of Purgatory in the Old Testement. They took up a collection. (Some things NEVER change), That is why Luther removed that book, and others, from the Protestent version of the Bible, even tho the books had been in the Original Bible for 1,500 years:shrug:

Exactly we are all called to pray for the dead. I am told that a prayer for the dead in this life can take off years of Purgatory time. It is simply our love for them and our devotion to God that makes this possible.

Just like the Blessed Mother and saints can help us in our moment of need because like Job have been faithful to God.

Richard tends to believe that because of the Cross and the great love that our Father has for us Purgatory is somehow takes away from the cross. He does not see that the truth of the matter is, it is BECAUSE of the Cross and our Fathers great love purgatory is even possible.

But Purgatory is a cleansing of the SOULS. That is why we always pray for the SOULS in purgatory. As we know our SOULS are what continues to go on into eternal life, until the end of time and Christ re-unites our body and soul once more.

That is why we can call it a place, but it is really a state because you can’t see our soul, so you could not see the place if that makes sense. In our mind we can be somewhere and the place not exist, but only in our mind, LIke in a dream you are in a state, you are not actually in the place you are, BODY AND SOUL but in your mind you do feel you are there at the time.

 

[rinnie]

JL: I am having computer problems so it’s difficult to post. The Church has not defined whether it is a place or state. It would have to be one or the other, but the Chruch has not defined which. Hope this helps rinnie. Check out New Advent on purgatory to see what has been defined. I would post the link but can’t now.

Father told me it is a state of being. If you really think about that it means a place that your soul is in. DO you see what I am saying. SO it does have to be a state. Simply because you soul does not need a place. Does that make sense. When I say place, like a human place on earth. There is no body to need it.

That is why it is called a process or condition. See what I am saying.

 

[rinnie]

JL: I am having computer problems so it’s difficult to post. The Church has not defined whether it is a place or state. It would have to be one or the other, but the Chruch has not defined which. Hope this helps rinnie. Check out New Advent on purgatory to see what has been defined. I would post the link but can’t now.

Off topic but if its real hot where you are, thats probally the problem. We have been having over 98 degree days and my was acting up, so it took me forever to post for the last few weeks.

We have a break today but starting tommorow, its supposed to get real bad again. So its probally the heat. I thought I had a virus at first.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Again you have lost me here. Catholic Tradition has always taught it to be a transitional conditon between heaven and hell. Now how could it not be a state of being, which means a state of mind, if you have no idea you are going through the process?

I mean what good is the suffering and the process if you are not in that state of mind to understand what you are going through.

State of being means a state of existance. So how could we not exist and go through the cleansing state?

Quick correction/clarification: Purgatory would not be a condition between heaven and hell but between earthly life and heavenly life.

First, here is what the Catechism has to say…

@@@@@@

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

@@@@@@@@@

Note the reference to Judas Maccebus. This is the strongest indication of Purgatory in the Old Testement. They took up a collection. (Some things NEVER change), That is why Luther removed that book, and others, from the Protestent version of the Bible, even tho the books had been in the Original Bible for 1,500 years:shrug:

Ummmm, Luther’s main argument against those books was that the Jews did not accept them. His motivation may have been as you state, but his given reason was not in any way similar.

From what I understand he was debating someone (Erasmus?) and when presented with verses from the deuterocanonical books he sided with the Jews by way of Jerome (he misapplied Jerome, but that is not for this thread).

I am confused why everyone is attacking JonNC. He is not disagreeing with the Catholic concept of purgatory and the necessity for purgation, he is simply being less… legalistic regarding its “location” and some of the details contained in many theories regarding what purgatory fundamentally is.

Everyone needs to chill out a bit and consider before they hit that submit reply button. Its getting a bit too aggressive in this thread

 

[rinnie]

Quick correction/clarification: Purgatory would not be a condition between heaven and hell but between earthly life and heavenly life.

Ummmm, Luther’s main argument against those books was that the Jews did not accept them. His motivation may have been as you state, but his given reason was not in any way similar.

From what I understand he was debating someone (Erasmus?) and when presented with verses from the deuterocanonical books he sided with the Jews by way of Jerome (he misapplied Jerome, but that is not for this thread).

I am confused why everyone is attacking JonNC. He is not disagreeing with the Catholic concept of purgatory and the necessity for purgation, he is simply being less… legalistic regarding its “location” and some of the details contained in many theories regarding what purgatory fundamentally is.

Everyone needs to chill out a bit and consider before they hit that submit reply button. Its getting a bit too aggressive in this thread

 

[Jim_Dandy]

I agree. For example, one has to connect the dots, as it well, regarding Holy Theotokos. Its there, however. I think Trinity is a bit more explicit. Nevertheless, the early councils identified the Truth of these. Some of the doctrines over the last 1000 years have not had the benefit of a truly ecumenical council.

Yes, I understand. Thanks. The question for me relates to the problem above - that of councils that are not truly ecumenical?

Jon

Friend Jon,

No council is ever attended by every bishop. A council is ecumenical if it is called for the worldwide (Universal) Catholic Church and if it is either attended by or its decrees are approved by the Pope. The Pope’s concurrence with the decrees of any council makes them binding on the entire Church. That’s why the decrees of the local councils that defined the canon were binding on all the Church, though they were not ecumenical. Trent affirmed the canon of the ancient Vulgate, which contained the canon of the Council of Rome (A.D. 382), Pope Damusus I presiding. The East confirmed their acceptance of the canon of the Council of Carthage at II Nicea, 787.

Of course, the Orthodox don’t agree. They think their refusal to participate arrested the development of the Universal Church, that the Church has been held hostage all these centuries.

I find it strange that the Orthodox pray for their dead, but can’t explain why.

From the Orthodox Study Bible, footnote to 2 Tm 1:18:

Perhaps Onesiphorous is dead. The Church has never hesitated to pray for her departed, that they may find mercy from God on the Day of the Lord.

If there is no state of being/place of purification, prayers for the dead are superfluous.

Peace be with you,

Jim Dandy

 

[Zooey]

Real.
As to what the definition of it is, I have no need to know more than that we must be made perfect in order to enter Heaven, and that our God is willing, able, & ready to provide that purification for us.
He’s like that.

 

[Telstar]

I believe that Purgatory is a very real spiritual ‘place’ where our souls are purified before they can enter into Heaven (also a real spiritual ‘place’), since John says, “Apocalypse 21: [27] There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.”

We cannot begin to understand the mysteries of the reality of Heaven, Hell or Purgatory without considering it in the purely spiritual sense. The spiritual realms are as tangible and real as this physical world is, except that there is no “time” as we know it here. There are separations, or ‘walls’ if you prefer, between all of those ‘places’ in the spiritual plane of existence just as there are walls that separate different ‘properties’ on earth. This passage from Luke explains a little of the ‘walls’ that separate them.

[23]
And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: [24] And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. [25] And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazarus evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented. [26] And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither.

This is a description of the kind of separation between the ‘place’ of the damned (Hell) and the “Bosom of Abraham” (believed to be Limbo, which is a whole ‘nother kettle o’ fish, because this occurred before Jesus had opened the Gates of Heaven to Abraham). So, it’s fairly easy to see by this that there are, most definitely, many separate ‘places’ in the spiritual realm where all souls reside after leaving this earthly life, in the physical realm. Those separations are as real as the ‘veil’ that also separates us from that spiritual realm. The walls are real.

I was trying to come up with an analogy that might explain the process of purgation in a more tangible way, and the closest thing that I could come up with is the concept of the ‘clean room’, or of a hospital ‘isolation ward’. The ‘clean room’ would show the need for cleanliness (purity) of all that enter it, so it could be seen as a representation of Heaven. The process of ‘purification’ of those that want to enter it, would describe the purgation process, itself. Those who do not go through that process, cannot be allowed to enter the clean room, because they could contaminate those who have already been made perfectly ‘clean’. The ‘isolation ward’ is more of an example of Purgatory, itself, where those that* have* infectious diseases are separated, so they can’t spread their infection to others while they go through the process of being ‘healed’.

I hope this explanation helps some folks understand the process a little better, and doesn’t cause even more confusion.

 

[JonNC]

=Jim Dandy;8163593]Friend Jon,

No council is ever attended by every bishop. A council is ecumenical if it is called for the worldwide (Universal) Catholic Church and if it is either attended by or its decrees are approved by the Pope. The Pope’s concurrence with the decrees of any council makes them binding on the entire Church. That’s why the decrees of the local councils that defined the canon were binding on all the Church, though they were not ecumenical. Trent affirmed the canon of the ancient Vulgate, which contained the canon of the Council of Rome (A.D. 382), Pope Damusus I presiding. The East confirmed their acceptance of the canon of the Council of Carthage at II Nicea, 787.

The canon of scripture is a bit off topic, Jim, but I admit bringing up the nature of general councils. The question for another thread is why Orthodox canons are different.

Of course, the Orthodox don’t agree. They think their refusal to participate arrested the development of the Universal Church, that the Church has been held hostage all these centuries.

I find it strange that the Orthodox pray for their dead, but can’t explain why.

From the Orthodox Study Bible, footnote to 2 Tm 1:18:

Perhaps Onesiphorous is dead. The Church has never hesitated to pray for her departed, that they may find mercy from God on the Day of the Lord.

If there is no state of being/place of purification, prayers for the dead are superfluous.

I’ll let the Orthodox comment on the first.
I don’t at all find it strange that they pray for the dead, as can Lutherans, as demonstrated by Luther’s quote regarding it. I am not accusing you of this, but to say these prayers are superfluous just seems to limit God’s ability to recieve and answer prayers.
But regarding this, if someone is in Purgsatory, and they are headed for Heaven anyway, could prayers in this sense also be considered superfluous, considering Cardinal Ratzinger’s presentations, and his use of the term “moment”? By this analogy, there then must be a “time frame” for Purgatory, something that is not universally accepted by Catholic teaching, as I understand it.

Peace be with you,

And also with you, Jim.

FidesSpesCarita,
Thank you for your kind words, and incidentally, your resaonable observation on Luther’s view of the canon of scripture.

Jon

 

[mardukm]

I voted it is REAL. The teaching, no doubt, is expressed heavily according to LATIN theological language and premises, but its reality is believed by all apostolic Churches in some form or other.

Blessings,
Marduk

P.S. OOPS! I was going to vote after I made this post, and just discovered the poll has been closed.

 

[JonNC]

I voted it is REAL. The teaching, no doubt, is expressed heavily according to LATIN theological language and premises, but its reality is believed by all apostolic Churches in some form or other.

Blessings,
Marduk

P.S. OOPS! I was going to vote after I made this post, and just discovered the poll has been closed.

Hi Marduk,
Could you explain what your Church teaches, assuming by your post that it may at least in language be somewhat different?

Thanks,
Jon

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Jon,

Hi Marduk,
Could you explain what your Church teaches, assuming by your post that it may at least in language be somewhat different?

As an Orthodox in communion with Rome, I of course adhere to the dogma of Purgatory. The dogma of Purgatory consists of only three things:

1. That there is an intermediate state after physical death that is not eternal damnation nor eternal bliss;
2. That this state consists of further purification of souls in the hereafter;
3. That the prayers and suffrages of the Church on earth can aid those souls in this state, especially the Holy Sacrifice of the Eucharist.

Absolutely nothing in those three dogmatic points is in contradiction with the beliefs in the afterlife of any of the apostolic Churches.

Now there are some peculiar distinctions in the different communions/Traditions on these points. Some of these distinctions are:
In the Eastern Tradition, a concept known as Toll houses exists, where the conscience of souls are tortured and tested in the process of theosis.
In the Oriental Tradition (as well as the Eastern Tradition), this intermediate state is known as Hades, where souls have a foretaste of their eternal reward.
In the Oriental and Eastern Traditions, there is acknowledged the possibility that those who seemingly were not redeemed while alive may gain, through the prayers of the Church, release from their suffering and (according to some POV’s) even release from the future sentence of eternal damnation.
In the Latin Tradition, fire or pain is part of this process of purification.
In the Latin Church, the prayers and suffrages of the Church that can aid the souls in this intermediate state can come in the form of indulgences.

Whatever the peculiarities are, the three dogmatic points of the Catholic teaching on Purgatory mentioned above are - to repeat - unanimously believed by ALL the apostolic Churches, Catholic and Orthodox alike.

There is an additional corollary to belief about Purgatory that I should mention. It is distinct from the teaching on Purgatory, but is related to it, nonetheless. It is the dogma that the Sacraments of salvation are not effective for souls in the afterlife. So the intermediate state after death can never be considered to be a “second chance” for those who have objectively died in a state of impenitence.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Jim_Dandy]

We should take into consideration the teaching of JPII –

QUOTE

The term [Purgatory] does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence. Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ who removes from them the remnants of imperfection (cf. Ecumenical Council of Florence, Decretum pro Graecis: DS 1304; Ecumenical Council of Trent, Decretum de iustificatione: DS 1580; Decretum de purgatorio: DS 1820).

END QUOTE

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM

Jim Dandy

 

[jlhargus]

It is not possible for us to earn the gift of salvation by having our sins purged. If it were possible God’s gift would not be a gift and salvation would be owed to us, completely nullifying the cross.

JL: Correct, that’s a very Catholic teaching, IT IS NOT possible for us to EARN the gift of SALVATION. It’s only thru applying the fruit of Christ’s blood which purges one of sins. Thru baptism, confession and purgatory.

[CCC1263: By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin. In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.]

Baptism cleanses and renders us holy to enter heaven. Yet after baptism most, thru some attachment to sin, and faults such as not forgiving from the heart, do not maintain the holiness to see God face to face.

[Mt 28:23 Therefore is **THE KINDOM OF HEAVEN LIKENED UNTO A certain KING, which would take account of his servants. … 32 Then his lord … said … I forgave thee …33… Shouldn’t you …34 his lord delivered him to the tormentors till he should pay all due him 35 … LIKEWISE … my heavenly Father WILL DO TO YOU if ye from YOUR HEARTS FORGIVE NOT every one his brother their trespasses]

Could you tell me how anyone EARNS salvation thru purgatory? Those in purgatory can do NO work, they can do nothing to help themselves. [Jn9:4 **I must work the works of him that sent me, WHILE IT IS DAY: the night cometh, when no man can work.] Night has come for those who have departed, when no man can work.

Those on earth can avoid and aid the souls in purgatory offering up prayers, alms, acts of charity, indulgences gained, fasting or other sacrifices offered to God. How much our acts help only God knows. HIS GRACE SUPPLIES the value to any good deed performed, with the very GRACE HE SUPPLIES to do the good deed in the first place.

Those in purgatory are saved already, otherwise they wouldn’t be in purgatory but hell. Purgatory is God’s great mercy and fruit of the cross. Is it earning salvation and nullifying the cross, when we neglect the GRACE HE SUPPLIES to correct our faults and grow in holiness? Is it earning and nullifying the cross when some of our works are stubble, and we suffer lose, THOUGH SAVED, yet as by fire, 1Cor3:12-16?

Tell me when God chastises and scourges his children on earth. Is it earning salvation and nullifying the cross? No. It’s their own negligence for which God chastises them so they may see their faults and correct them. He gives all the grace necessary to actually become holy. It’s our own faults, that hinder us, from making use of those gifts (graces) God gives us.

[Hb12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, **My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, NOR FAINT when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But IF YE BE WITHOUT CHASTISEMENT, whereof ALL are partakers, THEN ARE YE BASTARDS, and NOT SONS. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; BUT HE for our profit, THAT WE MIGHT BE PARTAKERS OF HIS HOLINESS. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.]

We are CHASTENED and SCOURGED by God while we are on earth, THAT WE MIGHT BE PARTAKERS OF HIS HOLINESS. If we fail to embrace and learn from those chastisings on earth growing in holiness by correcting our faults. God in His great mercy will scourge and purify those in need of purifying in purgatory. It isn’t necessary for anyone to go to purgatory, but God in his great mercy knows man and provides.

[2Tm2:20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for noble purposes and some for ignoble. 21 IF A MAN CLEANSES HIMSELF FROM THE LATTER, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, **MADE HOLY, USEFUL TO THE MASTER and prepared TO DO ANY GOOD WORK.]

[1Cor3:12 now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 … 14 … 15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so **AS BY FIRE.]

Is it earning salvation and nullifying the cross, when one builder is diligent and another careless in using the grace God gives them to build? If we don’t, thru the grace God supplies, purge the latter on earth then God in His great mercy will do so in Purgatory.

2Cor5:10 For WE MUST ALL APPEAR BEFORE THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST; that every one may receive the things done in his body, ACCORDING TO THAT HE HATH DONE, whether it be GOOD OR BAD.

 

[rinnie]

Richard again may I ask you , how do you come to the conclusion that Purgatory is us earning our salvation.

I asked you before, but I must ask you again, where did the Church ever teach that Purgatory was something they we earned for ourself and was not a grace from God for his love for us and mercy for us?

Where do you feel that we can enter Purgatory on our own works without the Grace and mercy of Chirst?

 

[Nicea325]

Richard again may I ask you , how do you come to the conclusion that Purgatory is us earning our salvation.

I asked you before, but I must ask you again, where did the Church ever teach that Purgatory was something they we earned for ourself and was not a grace from God for his love for us and mercy for us?

Where do you feel that we can enter Purgatory on our own works without the Grace and mercy of Chirst?

Obviously Richard is highly misinformed as to what the RCC teaches. Many people like Richard assume what we teach or they make up their own distinct views and believe it.

 

[rinnie]

Obviously Richard is highly misinformed as to what the RCC teaches. Many people like Richard assume what we teach or they make up their own distinct views and believe it.

That is what is sad, Because Richard cannot see that Purgatory is not us working out our own salvation on our own, or taking away from the Cross of Christ.

As I told him before it is BECAUSE of the Cross of Christ and his Grace that purgatory is even a possibility.

I think that when you make statements like he is making you MUST be able to back them up with a teaching of the RCC that states what he is saying. It is no more then fair for us to ask him to show us a teaching in the RCC that states the purgatory is not a extra Grace given to us from God by his love and mercy, and purgatory is us earning our own salvation. If he cannot it is not fair for him to contribute to the conversation.

 

[Nicea325]

That is what is sad, Because Richard cannot see that Purgatory is not us working out our own salvation on our own, or taking away from the Cross of Christ.

As I told him before it is BECAUSE of the Cross of Christ and his Grace that purgatory is even a possibility.

I think that when you make statements like he is making you MUST be able to back them up with a teaching of the RCC that states what he is saying. It is no more then fair for us to ask him to show us a teaching in the RCC that states the purgatory is not a extra Grace given to us from God by his love and mercy, and purgatory is us earning our own salvation. If he cannot it is not fair for him to contribute to the conversation.

Oh I know what you mean. In another separate thread, I believe the one on Sola Scriptura,Richard stop discussing with me. And why? Because I told him why he adheres to a Tradition ( canon of scripture) no where taught in NT , let alone hinted in the Bible? He asked someone to name one Tradition outside the Bible,not written down? I replied:

The canon of scripture

Richard obviously adheres to it and accepts it,because if he didn’t his Bible would contain more or less NT books. Evidently he could not admit that my answer is a historical fact and no amount of denials will make it go away.

Peace

 

[softwareghost]

Purgatory is Man Made, just like how the bible is man made. I’m sick of religions like Catholicism fearing people into their religion, sickens me. I myself follow the laws of physics and the laws of biology and nature.

Reasons why Purgatory is not real.

1. Sins are not real,

Sins are man made, lets face it, the universe does not care if we have sex before marriage, or don’t believe in god, all the universe cares about is that the laws of physics and nature are obeyed.

This is why I do not believe sins are real, int he universe every single creature has the instinct of social darwinism (Survival of the fittest) please note Social Darwinism is not a theory, HUMAN EVOLUTION is a theory, Social Darwinism has been proven. The law of Social Darwinism states the only the strongest organisms will survive to have a lot of sex and pass on there genes to the next generation. All the acts which are considered SINS, in the Christan religion are actually just regular instincts of nature.

1. Hell isn’t real.

There are many reasons why a hell can’t be real. It goes against the Christan belief of an all LOVING god, how can an all loving god damn someone to eternal suffering? Yes you may say well the disobeyed god, so god will damn you to suffering just because you disobeyed him, gee very loving.

A lot of people would say, well it’s because Jesus had to suffer. Lets think of this logically, why would a god TORTURE his only son to death, because some man took an apple? That makes no logic sense, that is barbaric and evil! If I tell my little sister, “hey don’t eat my ice cream cone in the fridge” and she eats it, does that make logic sense for me to have my son tortured to death?

Part 2 of why hell is not real, hell violates the law of conservation of energy, in physics energy is never created nor destroyed, so if a hell did exist, that energy of the being would have to leave our universe to a different plane, which is a big no no in physics (Energy’s conservation has been proven, I have used and conducted experiment’s which prove it’s a law.) Some people will argue with me saying, a hell could exist, since there is a possibility of other dimensions and Anti universes. Yes those dimensions and universes could exist, but there is not way for energy to be transferred from one to another. Again it violates the conservation of energy’s law.